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Being assertive in the face of resistance.

#1 · March 14, 2023, 7:45 pm

Hi Everyone,

I was talking to friend over the phone, and she used a dis-empowering tone on me to criticize me, and I pushed back against the tone like PU advises to, then ran into something that threw me of balance.

X : Dis-empowers me with her tone and words

Me: I don't appreciate that tone on me.

X: Why not?

Me: I don't appreciate being yelled at.

X: Why not? if you got a problem with me yelling, then that's your problem.

Me: Again I don't appreciate being yelled at, you don't seem to understand.

X: I'm asking you, why you don't appreciate me yelling? You seem to get effected by it, so it should be you who learns to cope with it, you can't ask other people to change their behavior to suit you. I'm asking you why and you are repeating back the same thing over and over again.

Her frame was rock solid, I too didn't budge from my frame of "I don't appreciate that tone", I didn't answer her why and why not? because it would still dis-empower me further.

Is the broken record technique the only way to answer these kind of resistance? and what's your take on this entire interaction?

Thank You

Mav

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#2 · March 14, 2023, 7:49 pm

Hello Mav,

Very interesting.

There's an important part missing though: how did it end up?

OK, you held your frame you say, and she held her own.
That's an impasse.
How did you come out of it? Did you just stop the conversation, or...?

And of course, what do you think you could have done.

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#3 · March 14, 2023, 7:57 pm

P.S.:

And if anyone has any idea or wants to share how to handle this, happy to read.

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#4 · March 14, 2023, 8:57 pm

Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on March 14, 2023, 7:49 pm

Hello Mav,

Very interesting.

There's an important part missing though: how did it end up?

OK, you held your frame you say, and she held her own.
That's an impasse.
How did you come out of it? Did you just stop the conversation, or...?

And of course, what do you think you could have done.

I recognized that we were at an impasse and at this point, we had moved away from the actual topic of "me not being okay with her tone" and devolved to "I'm right vs You're wrong" and her tone also had lost that edge, not wanting to engage and waste more energy and time at this point I changed topic, I also knew that even though she hadn't backtracked, I had made her feel that I was not be trifled with, made it known to her that it was not worth her time wasting her energy arguing with me, so even though there was no clear cut backtracking from her part, I knew she would think twice before she did the same thing again.

I'm not sure what to do at this point, other than clearly point out my boundary, even after that, if this happens cutting contact remains an option to explore, but I feel the cutting contact is a win-lose situation because I lost since I was not able to handle that situation. Another option is to mirror what she did back to her and see how she responds, but then it would be very easy to frame me as being over reactive. She pulled a meta move and has a rock solid frame. Probably I could have gone meta and said she is trying to Gaslight me.

Mav

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#5 · March 14, 2023, 9:07 pm

Him: I appreciate respectful conversations and yelling is out of line

her: I am allowed to yell you should learn to cope with it

Him: yelling is disrespectful, if you don’t change your tone now the conversation stops here.

you are asking for basic respect, and if she can’t comply, then the conversation is over. it is a power showdown

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#6 · March 15, 2023, 12:14 am

Quote from Kavalier on March 15, 2023, 12:14 am
Hello, guys!

I think Mav was very good at addressing the tone. What I would change here is:

Me: I don't appreciate that tone on me.

X: Why not?

Me: I don't appreciate ~~being yelled at~~ that tone on me. (again, same tone, not adding nor removing words)

Not rewording, I remember Lucio explained, avoids people interpreting your change of words as a sign of weakness. (I discovered that this is not easy, though. I still tend to reword). This is ideal, something to keep in mind, but Mav didn't really lose there (especially because he did it in his next iteration).

But I think that changing the subject was a big nono. She challenged your frame, Mav, and if you fail to show that trespassing your boundaries comes with consequences, chances are she'll think she can bully you into submiting (which changing the subject accomplishes). She may avoid that in the future so as not to wear herself out, but now she knows that, if she needs it, she can resort to it.

The only way out is escalating: I think you should have been ready for applying Jack's solution: end the conversation at some point. But not necessarily at that point, and not necessarily with an ultimatum. I generally don't recommend an ultimatum cases like this because you give her the power to decide the future of your relationship, and she may choose lose-lose on a whim. It'll be very awkward for you both to re-engage later.

You could have done it more like this:

X: I'm asking you, why you don't appreciate me yelling? You seem to get effected by it, so it should be you who learns to cope with it, you can't ask other people to change their behavior to suit you. I'm asking you why and you are repeating back the same thing over and over again.

Mav: Listen, X, I deal respectfully with people, and I expect the same respect back. If you like other people yelling at you, that's fine – socially unacceptable, but that's your thing. But I don't yell at you and I'll not tolerate you yelling at me for whatever reason. So, I'll ask you one more time: do you want to continue this conversation in a respectful way?

Then you watch her response. If she backtracks, you win and you can go back to the conversation (now you're power up, build her up) right after. If she doubles down, you end the conversation:

X, this conversation is over. Let's try again when you think you can speak more respectfully (hang up, wait no response).

Now I recommend you to keep being cordial to her in future interactions, but remain distant. The ball is on her court. If she's high quality, she'll realize she made a terrible mistake and sincerely apologize at some point – you'll know you have a good friend and she'll respect you more. If she doesn't, you know you're dealing with a turkey. But the door is open for slow fading or re-engaging at some point, if need be.

Hello, guys!

I think Mav was very good at addressing the tone. What I would change here is:

Me: I don't appreciate that tone on me.

X: Why not?

Me: I don't appreciate ~~being yelled at~~ that tone on me. (again, same tone, not adding nor removing words)

Not rewording, I remember Lucio explained, avoids people interpreting your change of words as a sign of weakness. (I discovered that this is not easy, though. I still tend to reword). This is ideal, something to keep in mind, but Mav didn't really lose there (especially because he did it in his next iteration).

But I think that changing the subject was a big nono. She challenged your frame, Mav, and if you fail to show that trespassing your boundaries comes with consequences, chances are she'll think she can bully you into submiting (which changing the subject accomplishes). She may avoid that in the future so as not to wear herself out, but now she knows that, if she needs it, she can resort to it.

The only way out is escalating: I think you should have been ready for applying Jack's solution: end the conversation at some point. But not necessarily at that point, and not necessarily with an ultimatum. I generally don't recommend an ultimatum cases like this because you give her the power to decide the future of your relationship, and she may choose lose-lose on a whim. It'll be very awkward for you both to re-engage later.

You could have done it more like this:

X: I'm asking you, why you don't appreciate me yelling? You seem to get effected by it, so it should be you who learns to cope with it, you can't ask other people to change their behavior to suit you. I'm asking you why and you are repeating back the same thing over and over again.

Mav: Listen, X, I deal respectfully with people, and I expect the same respect back. If you like other people yelling at you, that's fine – socially unacceptable, but that's your thing. But I don't yell at you and I'll not tolerate you yelling at me for whatever reason. So, I'll ask you one more time: do you want to continue this conversation in a respectful way?

Then you watch her response. If she backtracks, you win and you can go back to the conversation (now you're power up, build her up) right after. If she doubles down, you end the conversation:

X, this conversation is over. Let's try again when you think you can speak more respectfully (hang up, wait no response).

Now I recommend you to keep being cordial to her in future interactions, but remain distant. The ball is on her court. If she's high quality, she'll realize she made a terrible mistake and sincerely apologize at some point – you'll know you have a good friend and she'll respect you more. If she doesn't, you know you're dealing with a turkey. But the door is open for slow fading or re-engaging at some point, if need be.

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#7 · March 15, 2023, 6:02 am

Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on March 15, 2023, 6:02 am
Yes, and yes to Jack and Kavalier!

On the positive side, you initially checked her tone, put your foot down, did start to enforce your fair boundaries, and even pushed it further for quite some time (good!).

And, as you say, you also made it a lot more difficult for her to disrespect you, which is always a great step even when you lose.

That did set a precedent of "not easy to be trifled with", as you say -which is why starting is often good, even when you lose, and sometimes the "make it difficult for them" can be a great strategy when a clear victory is unlikely-.

So, yes, well done on that first step, and there are some positives -and yes, she was a tough person to deal with: quite dominant, high power, and even power skilled, albeit in an aggressive and manipulative way. That power move of turning the blame from her to you, was quite impressive, albeit in a negative way-.

However, even better than "not easy to be trifled with" is "not possible".
And in this case, it was possible to win -or at least, take it was possible to take till the finish line and stay unmovable on your frame-.

So, on the improvable side, what was missing was carrying that initial good check until the needed finish line.

As Jack said, it did turn out to be a power showdown indeed.

And Kavalier perfectly highlighted the key moment the showdown was lost: the showdown was lost with the change of topic because that failed to take your "boundary enforcement" until the finish line.
Your change of topic meant you swerved first, something that you probably should have avoided.

You could have handled it just like Kavalier said, which is 10/10.

Alternatively, also a slightly more aggressive, judge power a bit like this:

Her: I'm asking you, why you don't appreciate me yelling? You seem to get affected by it, so it should be you who learns to cope with it, you can't ask other people to change their behavior to suit you. I'm asking you why and you are repeating back the same thing over and over again.
You: (bit angrier and more aggressive tone to match her own tone) Look, are you playing some game now and PRETENDING not to know, or are you really asking for an explanation?
Because I don't know which one is worse and if you're really asking, then it's quite worrying you're asking me to explain why it's not cool to yell to people. (<---- the judge power move). It's a basic of socialization that yelling at others is rude and disrespectul, any child knows so I expect any well-adjusted adult to know how decent communication looks like

Some power keywords to use in these cases:

Decent (human being)

Proper

Civil / civilized

And on the negative:

Inconsiderate

Insulting

Aggressive

Ill-mannered

Rude and disrespectful

Unacceptable

Not what a friend does to a friend

Yes, and yes to Jack and Kavalier!

On the positive side, you initially checked her tone, put your foot down, did start to enforce your fair boundaries, and even pushed it further for quite some time (good!).

And, as you say, you also made it a lot more difficult for her to disrespect you, which is always a great step even when you lose.

That did set a precedent of "not easy to be trifled with", as you say -which is why starting is often good, even when you lose, and sometimes the "make it difficult for them" can be a great strategy when a clear victory is unlikely-.

So, yes, well done on that first step, and there are some positives -and yes, she was a tough person to deal with: quite dominant, high power, and even power skilled, albeit in an aggressive and manipulative way. That power move of turning the blame from her to you, was quite impressive, albeit in a negative way-.

However, even better than "not easy to be trifled with" is "not possible".
And in this case, it was possible to win -or at least, take it was possible to take till the finish line and stay unmovable on your frame-.

So, on the improvable side, what was missing was carrying that initial good check until the needed finish line.

As Jack said, it did turn out to be a power showdown indeed.

And Kavalier perfectly highlighted the key moment the showdown was lost: the showdown was lost with the change of topic because that failed to take your "boundary enforcement" until the finish line.
Your change of topic meant you swerved first, something that you probably should have avoided.

You could have handled it just like Kavalier said, which is 10/10.

Alternatively, also a slightly more aggressive, judge power a bit like this:

Her: I'm asking you, why you don't appreciate me yelling? You seem to get affected by it, so it should be you who learns to cope with it, you can't ask other people to change their behavior to suit you. I'm asking you why and you are repeating back the same thing over and over again.
You: (bit angrier and more aggressive tone to match her own tone) Look, are you playing some game now and PRETENDING not to know, or are you really asking for an explanation?
Because I don't know which one is worse and if you're really asking, then it's quite worrying you're asking me to explain why it's not cool to yell to people. (<---- the judge power move). It's a basic of socialization that yelling at others is rude and disrespectul, any child knows so I expect any well-adjusted adult to know how decent communication looks like

Some power keywords to use in these cases:

Decent (human being)
Proper
Civil / civilized

And on the negative:

Inconsiderate
Insulting
Aggressive
Ill-mannered
Rude and disrespectful
Unacceptable
Not what a friend does to a friend

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#8 · March 15, 2023, 7:25 pm

Tough situation! I think this is a great example as she was quite skilled as already been said. I can also imagine she injected anger in her answer so we get infected by this anger and tend to go on the defensive quite automatically. This anger is manipulative in the sense that it is designed to put you in the defensive position (you are in the wrong now). So the emotional component is something to be aware of and staying calm helps to choose the appropriate answer as I’m quite sure you did.

I think a key point to notice is the moment the other person asks a question. This is usually a turning point as the person asking the question has the power:

To task you (to answer)
To change the frame
To induce you to justify yourself (the lower power position)

So it is quite effective. That is what some people do to start a fight: “what’s your problem?”. Now the other person has to justify if or not they have problem. It is already a losing position as soon as the person answers the question. Because whatever one answers he’s already power down. You have a problem? Let’s fight. You don’t have a problem? Then why are you looking at me? Answer this new question and now you’re one more step power down.

What I think is useful is to install a “trigger” in one’s mind: “mmmh there’s a question here, what is going on here?” And detach. Especially in a conflict as the real stake is not the content but the power dynamics.

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#9 · March 15, 2023, 10:16 pm

Quote from Jack on March 14, 2023, 9:07 pm

Him: I appreciate respectful conversations and yelling is out of line

her: I am allowed to yell you should learn to cope with it

Him: yelling is disrespectful, if you don’t change your tone now the conversation stops here.

you are asking for basic respect, and if she can’t comply, then the conversation is over. it is a power showdown

Thank You Jack,

I should have told her it's a matter of respect and If she can't give that, I don't want to have a conversation with her,In my mind I still was trying to come up with a answer to why not? Couldn't believe that she actually asked that, that question threw me off, Coz never imagined anyone would actually question something so basic.

Mav

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#10 · March 15, 2023, 10:43 pm

Quote from Maverick on March 15, 2023, 10:43 pm

Quote from Kavalier on March 15, 2023, 12:14 am

Hello, guys!

I think Mav was very good at addressing the tone. What I would change here is:

Me: I don't appreciate that tone on me.

X: Why not?

Me: I don't appreciate ~~being yelled at~~ that tone on me. (again, same tone, not adding nor removing words)

Not rewording, I remember Lucio explained, avoids people interpreting your change of words as a sign of weakness. (I discovered that this is not easy, though. I still tend to reword). This is ideal, something to keep in mind, but Mav didn't really lose there (especially because he did it in his next iteration).

Thank You Kavalier,

Your reply helped me understand the interaction even more thoroughly, not rewording is a new point to me, it makes sense intuitively, and your explanation makes it clear.

But I think that changing the subject was a big nono. She challenged your frame, Mav, and if you fail to show that trespassing your boundaries comes with consequences, chances are she'll think she can bully you into submiting (which changing the subject accomplishes). She may avoid that in the future so as not to wear herself out, but now she knows that, if she needs it, she can resort to it.

The only way out is escalating: I think you should have been ready for applying Jack's solution: end the conversation at some point. But not necessarily at that point, and not necessarily with an ultimatum. I generally don't recommend an ultimatum cases like this because you give her the power to decide the future of your relationship, and she may choose lose-lose on a whim. It'll be very awkward for you both to re-engage later.

Your point on changing the subject is noted, at that point I was running out of time and patience, and was also not keen on a showdown because like you said, I was only thinking in terms of Ultimatums and did not want to be in a position where she could decide the future of the relationship, coz I didn't want to burn my bridges forever, and I thought I might have not won the fight, but I gave a bloody nose.

X: I'm asking you, why you don't appreciate me yelling? You seem to get effected by it, so it should be you who learns to cope with it, you can't ask other people to change their behavior to suit you. I'm asking you why and you are repeating back the same thing over and over again.

Mav: Listen, X, I deal respectfully with people, and I expect the same respect back. If you like other people yelling at you, that's fine – socially unacceptable, but that's your thing. But I don't yell at you and I'll not tolerate you yelling at me for whatever reason. So, I'll ask you one more time: do you want to continue this conversation in a respectful way?

Then you watch her response. If she backtracks, you win and you can go back to the conversation (now you're power up, build her up) right after. If she doubles down, you end the conversation:

X, this conversation is over. Let's try again when you think you can speak more respectfully (hang up, wait no response).

Now I recommend you to keep being cordial to her in future interactions, but remain distant. The ball is on her court. If she's high quality, she'll realize she made a terrible mistake and sincerely apologize at some point – you'll know you have a good friend and she'll respect you more. If she doesn't, you know you're dealing with a turkey. But the door is open for slow fading or re-engaging at some point, if need be.

These suggestions are gold, with this there is not need to resort to Ultimatums, and it still preserves rapport and puts the onus on them to behave properly.

Quote from Kavalier on March 15, 2023, 12:14 am

Hello, guys!

I think Mav was very good at addressing the tone. What I would change here is:

Me: I don't appreciate that tone on me.

X: Why not?

Me: I don't appreciate ~~being yelled at~~ that tone on me. (again, same tone, not adding nor removing words)

Not rewording, I remember Lucio explained, avoids people interpreting your change of words as a sign of weakness. (I discovered that this is not easy, though. I still tend to reword). This is ideal, something to keep in mind, but Mav didn't really lose there (especially because he did it in his next iteration).

Thank You Kavalier,

Your reply helped me understand the interaction even more thoroughly, not rewording is a new point to me, it makes sense intuitively, and your explanation makes it clear.

But I think that changing the subject was a big nono. She challenged your frame, Mav, and if you fail to show that trespassing your boundaries comes with consequences, chances are she'll think she can bully you into submiting (which changing the subject accomplishes). She may avoid that in the future so as not to wear herself out, but now she knows that, if she needs it, she can resort to it.

The only way out is escalating: I think you should have been ready for applying Jack's solution: end the conversation at some point. But not necessarily at that point, and not necessarily with an ultimatum. I generally don't recommend an ultimatum cases like this because you give her the power to decide the future of your relationship, and she may choose lose-lose on a whim. It'll be very awkward for you both to re-engage later.

Your point on changing the subject is noted, at that point I was running out of time and patience, and was also not keen on a showdown because like you said, I was only thinking in terms of Ultimatums and did not want to be in a position where she could decide the future of the relationship, coz I didn't want to burn my bridges forever, and I thought I might have not won the fight, but I gave a bloody nose.

X: I'm asking you, why you don't appreciate me yelling? You seem to get effected by it, so it should be you who learns to cope with it, you can't ask other people to change their behavior to suit you. I'm asking you why and you are repeating back the same thing over and over again.

Mav: Listen, X, I deal respectfully with people, and I expect the same respect back. If you like other people yelling at you, that's fine – socially unacceptable, but that's your thing. But I don't yell at you and I'll not tolerate you yelling at me for whatever reason. So, I'll ask you one more time: do you want to continue this conversation in a respectful way?

Then you watch her response. If she backtracks, you win and you can go back to the conversation (now you're power up, build her up) right after. If she doubles down, you end the conversation:

X, this conversation is over. Let's try again when you think you can speak more respectfully (hang up, wait no response).

Now I recommend you to keep being cordial to her in future interactions, but remain distant. The ball is on her court. If she's high quality, she'll realize she made a terrible mistake and sincerely apologize at some point – you'll know you have a good friend and she'll respect you more. If she doesn't, you know you're dealing with a turkey. But the door is open for slow fading or re-engaging at some point, if need be.

These suggestions are gold, with this there is not need to resort to Ultimatums, and it still preserves rapport and puts the onus on them to behave properly.

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