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Inside the mind of a Machiavellian
Hello dear Power University Community
From a young age, I knew I was different from the other kids in my class or other people in general. It wasn't until much later, through my own research, TPM, and an online personality test, that I found out I “suffer” from Machiavellian Personality Disorder. Why "suffer" in parentheses, you may wonder, because I personally see it as an advantage rather than a disadvantage. I believe there are many Machiavellians who know they are different but accept their dark side and use it to their advantage.
Today I want to share with you my thoughts on how a Machiavellian operates and other relevant information about Machiavellianism in general.
To begin, I would like to define Machiavellianism. I very much agree with the definition Lucio mentioned in the Machiavellianism section of the PU course, so I will adopt that definition. "Machiavellianism is a personality trait inherent in self-centered and amoral individuals who pursue personal advancement through a calculating, rational, and opportunistic approach to life."
*Disclaimer* These are my personal thoughts on Machiavellianism.
Is Machiavellianism innate or is it based on environmental factors?
This is a difficult question to answer, as the scientific evidence on this is inconclusive, and I personally believe that both factors play a role. As far back as I can remember, I have always been calculating, rational, and even manipulative, more so than most other children. I remember a few incidents where I was able to use Machiavellian tactics to weasel my way out of trouble in school or get a few extra sausages from teachers/classmates.
Are there different types of Machiavellians?
In my opinion, yes. I think that most people with Machiavellian personality disorder have some basic goals that they all want to achieve, for example money and power, and that they share some common personality traits. The difference is how much these traits influence their behavior. Almost any personality trait taken to an extreme is counterproductive.
I would divide Machiavellians into two distinct categories. The enlightened Machiavellians, according to the TPM definition, and the self-destructive Machiavellians. Self-destructive Machiavellians are counterproductive because they sometimes fail to see the big picture or focus too much on their personal gain while disregarding that of their team and close allies. Frank Underwood, a true Machiavellian, is a perfect example. What ultimately led to his downfall was the fact that he manipulated even the closest associates around him, who then became resentful and began to go their own way or even turn against him.
Personally, I believe that you should limit the win/loss exchanges and other games/manipulations with your long-term partners and closest allies and focus on the big picture. A strong network of close allies is much more helpful in the long run than transactional, distant or toxic relationships.
Is it possible to learn/unlearn Machiavellian behavior?
In my opinion, it is possible to learn Machiavellian thinking/behavior. To help you with this, I will list some personal questions that usually run through my mind:
What's in it for me? How can I benefit from this new situation? Who has the power and can help me achieve my goals? How do I achieve my goals (and what are the costs involved)? What can I do to improve my negotiating position? What will make me look good to higher-ups? What do the higher-ups want? Can I offer them that? Can I trade it for something I want? Who is my competition? Are they better than me? How can I take them out of the game?
On the other hand, I don't think you can stop the Machiavellian thought process if you really are a Machiavellian. You can stop acting like a Machiavellian, but the thought process remains the same. For example, I might give money to a homeless person when no one sees it, but I would then walk away thinking about how foolish it was to give money away and get nothing in return. As you can imagine, emotional gratification has little meaning to Machiavellian people.
In conclusion, Machiavellianism is still a dark triad personality disorder and in general you should be very careful when dealing with these individuals. Some act straight to gain a good reputation, only to play you further down the road.
I hope that I was able to provide you with some helpful information or help you gain some new insight with my second post on this forum. If you have any questions or would like further clarification on any of the above, please feel free to ask me.
I wish you a successful day!
Thank you so much for sharing this, Roberto.
Really an awesome post and very enlightening.
Were you ever bullied/disrespected by others in your life ( by assholes, superiors etc. ). What is your way of dealing with those people?
Or maybe the way you behave causes those kind of people to never go after you in the first place?
Hello @dgx37
To answer your question: No, I was never bullied. In fact, and I'm not proud of this, I was actually a bully at some point during my school years. Don't get me wrong, there would have been many occasions when I could have been a victim of bullying myself because I was relatively short and thin for my age, due to genetics and the fact that I had skipped a grade. I will try to outline some points and tips that helped me prevent bullying and that you may be able to apply as well.
First and foremost, it is important to understand the dynamics of the group/organization you are in.
Who has the power? Who are the key influencers? Who are the allies and potential enemies?
You also need to understand what can foster bullying in your group.
Once you understand where you stand, you can design a plan. Here are some things that have helped me protect myself from bullying:
- Build relationships with key people. In my school environment, this was the big boy who was a bit socially awkward, but no one touched him because he was strong. I became his best friend (at least from his point of view), and if anyone dared touch me, he would get physical, and everyone knew it.
- It's also important to have a good relationship with your teachers because they have a lot of power and can prevent bullying from happening in the classroom during class. They can also punish bullies for their behavior and stop them.
- Another important point is not to be too different from your group/class. If you are too different from your group/class, you can easily create ingroup/outgroup dynamics and become a target.
- The next important step is to build a close network of allies or friends. As you can imagine, not many people, especially at a younger age, will try to challenge you if you are a popular person. Many bullies are not very popular in class (at least not in the top 10%) but are not challenged by other students because no one wants to become their target. They are also just people who want to improve their social status, and unless they are completely socially clueless, they will not try to bully the popular people.
- Sometimes you must stand up for yourself and confront a potential bully to immediately prevent a bad dynamic from developing. This step takes a lot of courage and was very hard for me personally.
- Another option, which I also decided on at some point during my school years, is to become a bully yourself. Because if you ally yourself with other bullies against a target, you indirectly prevent yourself from being bullied because you belong to the group that does it. I don't recommend this because there are many disadvantages to doing it. I did it because at that point I thought it was either them or me. But destroying a person over such a small thing was not worth it, and in the end, I actually regretted what I did.
I hope you can gain some valuable information out of my answer.
Cheers!
Hello Roberto,
this is very informative, thanks!
So far, I think that to be highly machiavellian, one has also to be highly narcisstic.
Since you're being so open about this topic, I'm curious about what is your opinion about this assumption. Do you think the correlation exists? If so, it could also be loose or strong of course.
If you feel like it: my goal is not to stick labels/judge but rather to have a better understanding and have a more open mind on this topic.
The way you express yourself makes me question this assumption.
To be as clear as possible, I tried to phrase this question in the most non-loaded/non-leading way possible.
My opinion is that there is a correlation but I could be wrong.
Thanks for a detailed answer @roberto, gives perspective that if bullies do what they do from fear ( and not because they are evil to the core ) one can still cooperate with them if they are high quality.
I hope we can learn from each other in the future and likewise, if there will be something you are curious about, feel free to ask me.
Hello John
I'm glad you were able to gain some information from my post!
I understand what you mean and where you are coming from. I will try to answer your question as specifically as possible. I can't tell you for sure what the correlation is between the Dark Triad traits, but I would assume that they are somehow connected. For example, a high expression of one trait (Machiavellianism, for example) may also lead to a higher expression of narcissism, or at least carry with it a higher potential for narcissism.
In the past, I have also had some problems with narcissistic tendencies, and after realizing how destructive it is to oneself, I have tried to develop a new mindset, an antifragile ego, and just general improvements to myself because it prevents me from achieving my goals in life.
In my opinion, a person suffering from narcissistic personality disorder (NPD) is in love with an idealized, grandiose image of themselves. And they are in love with this inflated self-image precisely because it allows them to avoid deep feelings of insecurity. However, maintaining this delusion of grandeur takes a lot of work - and that's where the dysfunctional attitudes and behaviors come in. Narcissistic personality disorder involves a pattern of egocentric, arrogant thinking and behavior, a lack of empathy and consideration for others, and an excessive need for admiration. Others often describe people with NPD as conceited, manipulative, egotistical, condescending, and demanding.
As you can see, Machiavellianism and Narcissism both have similar characteristics such as: self-centered, lack of empathy and consideration for others, manipulative, egotistical. In my opinion, the dark triad is generally not a triangle, but rather shaped as follows:
https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Datei:Intersection_of_3_circles_0.svg
To answer your question about whether I am a narcissist. I don't think that is an accurate description of the person I have become. For example, I don't need a lot of admiration and have basically spent my entire life hustling in silence. Also, I don't mind having my ego crushed, and I'm even proud of the fact that I feel insecure sometimes, because life would be boring if there weren't challenges to overcome and take yourself to a whole other level.
As for my writing style, I think it stems from the fact that I have been active on the TPM website for over 1 year and purchased Power University 4 months ago. I initially wanted to go to a higher level so as not to be a total beginner in this topic and because I really enjoy discussing topics such as self-improvement, psychology, power dynamics, etc. That said, still most of the members on this forum are far more advanced and experienced than I am. But for me, this place is heaven. You have to understand that all my life I could never talk openly to anyone about all the things that were on my mind because people would look at me and think I was crazy. And here's a website that even has a dedicated section for Machiavellianism. Just... WOW!
I look forward to collaborate with you here and wish all of you a successful day.
Cheers!
Hello Roberto,
thank you! To make things clear I did not implied that you were a narcissist nor asked this as a covert question. Hence me mentioning "labels". I think these traits are on a continuum and we can have more or less of them in us. The label "narcissist" as you used for NPD is for me people who have a personality disorder. That is, as the psychiatric definition that I learned in medicine: these traits are stable over time.
A normal person has different personality traits that include paranoid, narcissism, aggression, etc. The difference is that they fluctuate over time and situations. A person with a personality disorder is stuck in it. They don't have a choice. A paranoid person is paranoid in most if not all situations, not only when they are alone in a dark street or when they think they're going to be fired.
That is what I meant by "based on your writing". That is it seems that you have the necessary "insight" to do introspection and therefore even as you self-identify as a machiavellian, you can look at it and criticize it. People with personality disorders cannot do that based on my knowledge.
So we all have narcisstic traits and it's normal and healthy. It's the extent and the ability to have different behaviours that is the differentiating factor.
That said, still most of the members on this forum are far more advanced and experienced than I am.
I think we all have our strengths and weaknesses :) That is why it's cool to exchange here: someone might have a strong point in one area/situation and another in a different one. The total is more than its sum. So we learn from one another and that is what is happening right now.
Going back to the main topic: my current reflection is that I'm working more on my self care. That is to take care more of myself. So I'm sliding back the cursor towards self-interest. However, I notice it is a good thing as I was too much of a people pleaser. Regarding machiavellianism, I think it's the same: it's a great mindset if one is not selfish enough but can be destructive if taken to the extreme/used as the only strategy/behaviour.
I think machiavellianism is a mindset that is most effective in certain situations. I understand that self-interest in the main driver in humans. However, we also are wired to take care of others/give and that gives us rewards. Otherwise, there would not be so much collaboration. So I think that self-care, self-interest, machiavellianism are all necessary if one does not do it enough. But overdoing it leads to taking, I don't know what you think about it...
There is this dance between the individual interest and the group's interest. Machiavellianism is a great strategy to slide the cursor towards the individual. However he's still part of the group and too much of it can be self-sabotaging.
Also there is a cultural aspect to it: to maximize self-interest most in some cultures (I'm thinking about asian cultures), paradoxically one has to give a lot to the group (to get from the group: approval, belonging, resources, etc.). In other cultures like western cultures, I think one has to be more selfish as the group will not take as much care of you. The exchange is more transactional. There are less "strokes" (from transactional analysis): I give you this you give me that bye! In other cultures the bonding/connection aspect is more present in interaction with strangers. So in these cases, I think that being too machiavellian can backfire as there is the risk to be ostracized. I could be wrong as one could argue that a great machiavellian will take into account all these aspects in his strategy.
What I think machiavellian does not account for is emotions/bonding. When I'm being machiavellian at work, I'm more into "thinking" mode so I achieve the desired outcome but I don't feel closer to the people as I basically "outsmarted" them. So I feel like it breeds more separation from the people around us. It leads us to see them more as a mean to an end than an end in itself. So it can disconnect us from other people. At least that is my observation and experience. I will hypothesise that machiavellism breeds power in exchange for connection/bonding. When I feel that I outsmarted someone it also makes me feel like I have less respect for them.
Happy to hear your thoughts on this.
Hello John
To make it easier and clearer I will take parts of your text as a quote and go into it individually:
“I think these traits are on a continuum and we can have more or less of them in us. The label "narcissist" as you used for NPD is for me people who have a personality disorder. That is, as the psychiatric definition that I learned in medicine: these traits are stable over time.
A normal person has different personality traits that include paranoid, narcissism, aggression, etc. The difference is that they fluctuate over time and situations. A person with a personality disorder is stuck in it. They don't have a choice. A paranoid person is paranoid in most if not all situations, not only when they are alone in a dark street or when they think they're going to be fired.”
- I agree that there are types of disorders that are lifelong or require extensive therapy to see betterment, for example, paranoid personality disorder. I also agree that personality traits in general are on a spectrum, and we can have more or less of something. On the other hand, I disagree that the difference between a personality trait and a disorder is that only personality traits change over time and situation. A disorder can easily worsen with changing environments or stress in general. Just like with character traits, the type of environment one is in can also have an enormous impact.
“That is what I meant by "based on your writing". That is it seems that you have the necessary "insight" to do introspection and therefore even as you self-identify as a machiavellian, you can look at it and criticize it. People with personality disorders cannot do that based on my knowledge.”
- Yes, I agree that these people do not have the “insight” to self-identify or criticize.
“Going back to the main topic: my current reflection is that I'm working more on my self care. That is to take care more of myself. So I'm sliding back the cursor towards self-interest. However, I notice it is a good thing as I was too much of a people pleaser. Regarding machiavellianism, I think it's the same: it's a great mindset if one is not selfish enough but can be destructive if taken to the extreme/used as the only strategy/behaviour.
I think machiavellianism is a mindset that is most effective in certain situations. I understand that self-interest in the main driver in humans. However, we also are wired to take care of others/give and that gives us rewards. Otherwise, there would not be so much collaboration. So I think that self-care, self-interest, machiavellianism are all necessary if one does not do it enough. But overdoing it leads to taking, I don't know what you think about it...
There is this dance between the individual interest and the group's interest. Machiavellianism is a great strategy to slide the cursor towards the individual. However, he's still part of the group and too much of it can be self-sabotaging.”
- The way you put it is difficult for me to argue even if I do not agree, because basically everything that is “overdone” is bad of course. An important note, just as people in general, Machiavellians are not all the same. They may show some similar characteristics, but they can act on them very differently. See self-destructive Machiavellians vs. enlightened Machiavellians in my post further above. If one sees the bigger picture (which also holds an advantage for him) there will be no or very little taking and a lot of win-win.
“Also there is a cultural aspect to it: to maximize self-interest most in some cultures (I'm thinking about asian cultures), paradoxically one has to give a lot to the group (to get from the group: approval, belonging, resources, etc.). In other cultures like western cultures, I think one has to be more selfish as the group will not take as much care of you. The exchange is more transactional. There are less "strokes" (from transactional analysis): I give you this you give me that bye! In other cultures the bonding/connection aspect is more present in interaction with strangers. So in these cases, I think that being too machiavellian can backfire as there is the risk to be ostracized. I could be wrong as one could argue that a great machiavellian will take into account all these aspects in his strategy.”
- Yes, I totally agree, Machiavellianism is not a superpower and the lesser skilled or more egoistic people who fail to see win-win can be ostracized if they take it too far. Also, as you correctly stated, it depends a lot on the region of the world you are in.
“What I think machiavellian does not account for is emotions/bonding. When I'm being machiavellian at work, I'm more into "thinking" mode so I achieve the desired outcome but I don't feel closer to the people as I basically "outsmarted" them. So I feel like it breeds more separation from the people around us. It leads us to see them more as a mean to an end than an end in itself. So it can disconnect us from other people. At least that is my observation and experience. I will hypothesise that machiavellism breeds power in exchange for connection/bonding. When I feel that I outsmarted someone it also makes me feel like I have less respect for them.”
- Awesome! You hit the nail on the head. That shows how well you can understand other people, even if you don't have their condition/personality trait. This website is truly next level if you study and understand the concepts. It is also a thing where I personally have much room for improvement. It is basically the opposite of what you are doing. I really must improve my bond/connection with people and not always try to “outsmart” them.
Great discussion!
Hello Roberto,
A disorder can easily worsen with changing environments or stress in general.
A quick comment on this: totally. What I meant is that many times people think of people with personality disorders as "normal people". So sometimes people try to interpret what they do within their own logical frame of mind, which does not work. These people don't really have a choice to do what they do. They're not being paranoid just to do it against us. It's how their personality is structured. Yes, they can improve with therapy/treatment. However, until they work on themselves, they are "stuck" in these behavioural patterns as their personality structure does not allow them to do otherwise.
Machiavellians are not all the same. They may show some similar characteristics, but they can act on them very differently. See self-destructive Machiavellians vs. enlightened Machiavellians in my post further above. If one sees the bigger picture (which also holds an advantage for him) there will be no or very little taking and a lot of win-win.
Very enlightening, thank you!
It is basically the opposite of what you are doing. I really must improve my bond/connection with people and not always try to “outsmart” them.
Cool, so we can learn from one another. :) Yes, it's a subtle balance.
Great discussion indeed!
PS: to make it easier for you to quote other people's messages, there is a button with a " " " in the menu on top of the textbox when you write a message (labeled "Blockquote" if you leave your cursor on it).
