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Most people are blind & chase psychopaths & dark triads
Most people don't see psychopaths and dark triads.
As a matter of fact, most people gravitate around dark triads.
This includes other men, who kiss up to them and "chase" them and their company.
One of the reasons people miss the sign is that they think of psychopathy as something "extremely out of the ordinary".
They think of movie-like serial killers.
They don't realize that psychopaths aren't THAT rare.
Especially not if we consider that sociopathy is similar and that this is all on a spectrum.
And one can be high in psychopathy traits, without being "full-blown".
If we start looking at the people around us with that "more inclusive lens", we can likely to spot the signs of high psychopathy traits in several of the people around us -or, as well, in ourselves-.
To a slightly lesser extent, that applies to the dark triad as well.
Continuing with some examples below...
Quoting Roberto from this other thread:
Quote from Roberto on September 6, 2023, 10:58 pmInteresting topic!
My two cents on this:
For about a year I personally have the feeling that most people go through life with blinders on. At first, I even thought that it can not be and that most would have somehow forged a plot to fool me.
A short excerpt of the story that caused this realization:
An acquaintance of mine with whom I am friends because he is useful to me is a psychopath. You can even say that he is a textbook psychopath. He really ticks all the boxes for a factor 1 psychopathy diagnosis. It didn't take long, this was even before TPM, for me to realize that.
I know him around 5 years now. He truly is a fascinating person and I really wanted to talk to someone (not him, of course) about it.
When I suggested to some of our common friends that there was something wrong with him, most just said:
He is just a special person
That's just the way he is
He is just (a bit) narcissistic***
The thing is, we are talking about someone who has Patrick Bateman as a profile picture on his private Instagram profile.
All our common friends know the channel.
This is really not a joke. I could even laugh sometimes, it's so absurd.
Women fall in love with him... and then are surprised that he has only lied to them and blocked after the first/second time sex.
Men want to be with him... and are framed as second class by him but still pay for the bottles in the club.
An example conversation with a good friend of mine who is usually quite power aware:
Friend: Do you still have contact with L?
Roberto: Yes, why?
Friend: A friend of mine had sex with him and said that he blocked her after sex.
Roberto: Yes, L usually does that
Roberto: Sometimes I think there is something wrong with him (wants to bring up the subject of psychopathy once again..)
Friend: Yes, he is quite narcissistic
Roberto: Do you think he is just a narcissist?
Friend: Yes, what else could he be?*End of story*
I think this illustrates quite well how naive a large part of people can be.
To note: These are all still young people who have fallen victim to him or who have interacted with him. It may be that for the masses such realizations come only with certain life experience.
Cheers
Totally agree.
Had a similar experience of some obviously high dark triad trait guys being popular growing up -
And I especially noticed them being popular with meeker men who were far more socially low power -other high-power men were more likely to see them as threats and threats to their own power, or to have actual beef with them, which is also why high-power men who are more strategic and power protect may fare better in society-.
I'm thinking this could be a trend actually, of lower power men being mostly attracted to the borderline criminal high power and confidence (made a YB short about it recently):
And in a similar vein:
These videos do not fare too well.
A large part of the audience doesn't like to hear that Tate may be a sociopath.
Of course, the exact label is not the point.
The point is that it's not a stretch to think he may be a sociopath -or that at least he acts like one-.
But most guys still don't like to hear that -which, to me, is so low-power fanboying-.
And while researching the topic a bit, I saw plenty of other YouTubers who turned into fanboys.
Some defend him and say he was a "good man".
Even while Tate was disempowering them -textbook bitch behavior, BTW-.
Tucker Carlson's interview is also similar.
He went to interview him, at times acted in a way that to me is also bitch-behavior, and he actively worked to present Tate with pro-social traits:
To me, that all interview was a ridiculous cringe-fest.
And STILL most people failed to see the dynamics even after they were presented -and very much disliked the video-.
Overall, I may certainly be wrong with my personal analysis.
But this is only just one example of a larger trend:
Many people fail to see the sign of psychopathy/dark triad AND tend to chase and "give" to these men.
And if you can’t spot them, you will nevertheless suffer their consequences.
Totally agree on this.
I believe the reasons are multifaceted:
- psychopaths and dark triads manipulate as easily as breathing. Everything they do or say is manipulation. By definition, some (most?) people will fall for it.
- many parents are dark triads. People who were born to a dark triad, and manipulated by one, will be incapable of seeing psychopathy and manipulation in others due to the betrayal bond, unless they can accept that their parents are dark triads. The betrayal bond is stronger than any logical evidence and explanation.
- society does not teach about dark triads. Probably because many leaders, as well as many teachers, are dark triads, and they don't want people to know.
- dark triads are high-power by definition. And high-power trumps low power, which many of those who fall for dark triads are.
- dark triads do not usually abuse everyone. They project an image of warmth and caring, and only abuse selected specific people, precisely to hinder the possibility of being publicly recognized.
- even other high-power and power-aware people have no incentive whatsoever to talk about manipulation and psychopathy. As discussed here, doing so i) runs the risk of giving the impression that one is an armchair psychologist, and ii) projects the idea that one could be himself a dark triad.
By the way, one of the most common retorts by dark triads, when accused of being dark triads, is to accuse back the accuser of being one.
So nobody has any incentive, in real life, to point out that someone is a dark triad.
Of course things are different in one's mind. We NEED to make for ourselves an idea of who we have in front of us to be able to play a fair game.
Hello Bel
Most of your points are very conclusive to me, as usual! :)
However, number 2 is a bit flimsy to me. (I don't know to the point what the odds are of either parent being high in the Dark Triad, but I don't rate the odds higher than 15%-20 at most).
What do you think?
Yeah, I had Roberto's same feeling:
#2 felt the "least straightforward", so to speak.
It's a very new take and I had never thought about it and in a way, it makes sense.
So Bel maybe onto something -and I'll let him explain what he means more precisely, if he so wishes-.
But at the moment I'm just not 100% sure about it and, even if it turned out to be true, I wouldn't list it among the top reasons -simply from a raw math point of view as Roberto pointed out-.
Some more reasons:
- Power-alining, because dark triad tend to acquire more stauts, leadership roles, and win in life more than the average.
PLENTY of exceptions of course, including many of the more full-blown psychopaths without impulse control. But on average, I wouldn't be surprised if the average of high dark triads would out-perform the average of non-dark triads - Natural tendency to submit to dominant men, which Bel kinda listed as well with different words
- Higher excitement for people with boring life: most people lead normal life that often means "boring". And the psychopathic man who breaks the rule and lives his own way always chasing the next thrill and high brings an air of novelty and excitement that they want more of
- Freeing one's own dark side: people obey a myriad of written and non-written rules. Some of those rules may not make much sense while some others can be good -ie.: don't say women are inferior, don't say you don't like gays, other races, etc. etc.-.
But some people ARE racists, homophobic, misogynists, or secretly wishing to act criminally. When the psychopath speaks and does freely, they can finally enjoy or act out their more closeted "darker drive" that they didn't have the balls to vent or act upon
This is one of the reasons why Trump became president, BTW
I think this thread is fire.
I probably know a psychopath (or at least high in dark triad). After listening to the book "the wisdom of psychopaths" I thought about him. Here are some of his characteristics (all true, I've seen the pictures and I know him personally):
- He worked in porn in France, not as an actor but he worked with famous french porn producers (seen the pictures as I said).
- He's very well dressed: very nice suits, shoes and watches.
- Always good haircut, goes to the gym.
- I've only seen him with very pretty women. They're often very young and/or naive.
- Works in real estate with one of his friend (but actually I think he mooches off of him he would not have had this job without him) makes tons of money with it
- Is involved in growing and selling (illegal) weed (and legal? not clear but illegal for sure)
- He boasts at restaurants through buying really expansive bottles
- He managed to get our psychiatrist friend to do therapy for him for free informally (disguised as advice)
He's actually a smart person. However he's very calculative and exploitative. I actually like him. He's quite smart. However, I think he has no moral limitations as long as he does not get into trouble for it. He falls in the "Jason Bateman" or "Andrew Tate" persona.
He never hurt me personally. I don't think he's a bad person. But I'm quite sure he takes advantages of women and he does have illegal activities. It's not someone I would be close friends with but I want to learn from him (clothes, women, etc.). This guy is great with women and money this I'm 100% sure.
Like many things it's a spectrum and I don't think he's the worst person ever. I could not really exactly label him as "psychopath" as I don't have this feeling of "blankness" I got from this father (see below). So high in dark triad for sure.
Psychopathic father
There was also this father (of a 10 year old crazy child) in the ER who did not want to leave the ER until he had the passport of his daughter. Parents were separated and there was a whole judge injunction. He ended up leaving after taking 2 hours of my time. Police came. Multiple negotiations. Talked with child protection services, the mother, etc. Really really complicated. However long story short: he wanted what he wanted and was not going to give it up. He was blaming everyone, his wife. I ended up shaking his hand as he left. That's when it dawned on me: I did not want to have him as an enemy. That's when I realized he probably was a psychopath.
I could see the amount of suffering he inflicted on his child and ex-wife through his manipulations (the injunction from the judge is that he cannot talk nor be in the vincinity of his wife because of psychological abuse, never saw this before he did not hit her he just abused her psychologically). And subconsciously I did not want to have such a person as an enemy but not for me only but also for the hospital. He has a newborn child whom I took care of. And this child is going to be sick at one point. If this guy comes as an enemy with his sick child it's going to be difficult.
Anyway, this one I think was really a psychopath.
I'll comment on what you guys wrote later.
Yes, I agree that truly dark triad parents may make up no more than 15% of parents.
So maybe not very frequent in general.
But, the harm they do is enormous. They basically brainwash their children from birth and lead them down the rabbit hole of interpreting their (the parents') abuse as normal behavior, and normal people's behavior as "bad".
The dark triad, who is constantly abusing the child, accuses the child of being "weird, bad, antisocial", and even a dark triad.
So the "normal" (ie, non dark triad) children of dark triad parents live, until awakening, a life where:
- other abusers instantly recognize them as "brainwashed" and target them for further abuse;
- normal people find them "odd", and shun them;
- and they are incapable of standing up to abuse directed both at them and at third parties.
When they see a sociopath, they instantly find him or her "normal".
It is hell.
On the "trauma" or "betrayal" bond:
this is an unconscious psychological defense, present in all humans, that makes it impossible for people to "see the abuse done to them", if doing so would cause a worse outcome than submitting to the abuse.
If I have no financial independence and live with an abusive controlling parent, then it will be impossible for me to see my parent as a dark triad - and his behavior as abusive. If I did so, I would run the risk of losing my life.
It is not by chance that children of abusive parents usually tend to recognize the abuse inflicted on them only when they finally leave home and gain financial and work independence.
Of course, dark triad parents know this.
This is why they tend to encourage the dependency of their children on them in any way. Frequently this takes the form of providing them work opportunities, or money allowances, and then "implicitly threatening" to remove them if the child does not submit to them.
John's post points out another reason why nobody wants to point out a dark triad, or even contrast a dark triad:
- we instantly see that these people are capable of immense harm and "retaliation".
This is very real. Dark triads are capable of killing people without remorse for useless quarrels, provided they are assured nobody will find them out.
But, unfortunately, this tendency ultimately makes (most) people side with the abuser against the low-power abused.
Sometimes - and it is all the more true in my profession - you just have to know the risks, and stand out against evil in any case, fighting for the good with all you've got.
As we also discussed on the forum:
standing up against evil may be difficult, immensely difficult sometime. But most people, including those who submit, may be very happy to follow a leader who has the courage of standing up against evil.
People prefer good leaders, but will settle for evil leaders if no one steps up to the task.
Quote from Bel on September 8, 2023, 11:40 am(...) They basically brainwash their children from birth and lead them down the rabbit hole of interpreting their (the parents') abuse as normal behavior, and normal people's behavior as "bad".
So the "normal" (ie, non dark triad) children of dark triad parents live, until awakening, a life where:
- other abusers instantly recognize them as "brainwashed" and target them for further abuse;
- normal people find them "odd", and shun them;
- and they are incapable of standing up to abuse directed both at them and at third parties.
When they see a sociopath, they instantly find him or her "normal".
It is hell.
For some of them, that is surely the case, Bel.
But even allowing for a 15% of high dark triads parents, which is still a minority of people albeit it's a high estimate in my opinion, not every situation is the same.
I think instead that the higher the psychopathy, the more obvious it becomes that it's not "normal" (in general, exceptions apply).
You get cases where some abort because they can't even bother "wasting time/energy" into a new life, some leave the children by the dustbins and some men never meet their children (so at least some cases of children of psychopathic fathers grow without a psychopathic "figure").
Some others are physically abusive (as well), so it may be more obvious for the child it's "not normal" -especially in this day and age where physical beating is widely not-accepted-.
And some children swing the other direction avoiding any similar person in their life and any remotely similar behavior (albeit they may still be not fully equilibrated or end up being too "good", see for example Will Smith who swore to always make her wife happy and ended up being taken for a ride).
That's why, even if it may weigh a bit -and I'm not sure about that-, I still don't consider that entry to have the highest "explonatory power" of the phenomenon we're discussing (blindness to psychopathy/dark triad, and tendency to follow and admire).
