Be selfish and dishonest?
Hello guys,
we were playing a game called the "king's dilemma". An excellent game all about politics and about power. Basically each one plays a faction and there are votes
I'm now last in the game. It's a legacy game, meaning you play over 15 games.
I realized that my friends are way more selfish and dishonest than I thought. I tried to play their game and could see that I'm not good enough yet.
So even though I'm a student of power dynamics I have still a long way to go.
I'm aware that being high-quality is not about being too selfish nor dishonest. And honesty is one of my values. However, I'm questioning my approach since I might be too naive. I don't think it's a matter of intelligence. I think it's more a question of mindset.
Do you guys have any input about that? Am I mistaken?
I did not take it personnally. I now have the winner mindset so I want to win. But I'm still too agreeable and too open yet. They hide their intentions and I'm not as good as them as doing that or in manipulating others.
Difficult to say anything useful here without knowing the game.
But also without being sure how "honest" you generally are and if it's really costing you (or how "dishonest" your friends are, and if it's really benefiting them. It's entirely possible it's not benefiting them much, if at all).
Plus, being good at being dishonest in a game is probably different than in real life, and the pay-offs are also very different (including the pay-off of honesty in a game, VS life).
In my experience, when you get good at reading people, you can smell the ones with no ethics and who default to dishonesty.
So I think this might be a high-level question that, to answer well, it's better answered through a series of real-life exchanges and case studies at a lower, more pragmatic level.
About this:
Quote from John Freeman on June 29, 2022, 10:21 pmI'm aware that being high-quality is not about being too selfish nor dishonest. And honesty is one of my values. However, I'm questioning my approach since I might be too naive. I don't think it's a matter of intelligence. I think it's more a question of mindset.
Yeah, true.
TPM still needs to make that distinction in the articles/lessons.
High-value has little to do with honesty and ethics, it's more of an impartial measure.
High-quality does, and it's also more subjective.
In some case, when the ethics and morals are very strong, or too intransigent, they can stand in the way of success.
So being ethical can come at a cost.
That being said, I don't think the costs of "sensible" morals and ethics are high, and I believe the benefits instead are generally higher.
The keyword is in that "sensible" though.
TPM tends to espouse a "modular" and "strategic" approach to honesty and morals (having it 100% on, with everyone, would be the "naive" approach of course).
For example, we often say here that in competitive environments, you want to put your strategic foot forward, not your "always 100% honest" one.
Plus, another important axiom is that your best behavior is best reserved with other top people (so those morals are environment and people-based).
So if your environment is full of cheats, you may want to shelf the morals until you find a way to escape.
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Powerful. I’m on my phone. Will answer when on the computer. This goes deep.
I follow Odin's advice when it comes to friendship and honesty 🙂
So, to stay in the medieval environment:
Hast thou a friend whom thou trustest well,
from whom thou cravest good?
Share thy mind with him, gifts exchange with him,
fare to find him oft.But hast thou one whom thou trustest ill
yet from whom thou cravest good?
Thou shalt speak him fair, but falsely think,
and leasing pay for a lie.Yet further of him whom thou trusted ill,
and whose mind thou dost misdoubt;
thou shalt laugh with him but withhold thy thought,
for gift with like gift should be paid.
Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on June 30, 2022, 10:03 amDifficult to say anything useful here without knowing the game.
But also without being sure how "honest" you generally are and if it's really costing you (or how "dishonest" your friends are, and if it's really benefiting them. It's entirely possible it's not benefiting them much, if at all).
Yes, I need to clarify here. In the game it cost me a lot as when I was open with my intention and trying to go win-win, it did not work as expected. This is when I realized something: my friends are much more selfish than me. I'm not shying from my dark side here, I am selfish as living human being. However, I could see that they are more selfish.
Plus, being good at being dishonest in a game is probably different than in real life, and the pay-offs are also very different (including the pay-off of honesty in a game, VS life).
True
In my experience, when you get good at reading people, you can smell the ones with no ethics and who default to dishonesty.
True
So I think this might be a high-level question that, to answer well, it's better answered through a series of real-life exchanges and case studies at a lower, more pragmatic level.
Yes
About this:
Quote from John Freeman on June 29, 2022, 10:21 pmI'm aware that being high-quality is not about being too selfish nor dishonest. And honesty is one of my values. However, I'm questioning my approach since I might be too naive. I don't think it's a matter of intelligence. I think it's more a question of mindset.
Yeah, true.
TPM still needs to make that distinction in the articles/lessons.
High-value has little to do with honesty and ethics, it's more of an impartial measure.
High-quality does, and it's also more subjective.In some case, when the ethics and morals are very strong, or too intransigent, they can stand in the way of success.
So being ethical can come at a cost.
This is somewhat a new idea to me.
That being said, I don't think the costs of "sensible" morals and ethics are high, and I believe the benefits instead are generally higher.
The keyword is in that "sensible" though.
TPM tends to espouse a "modular" and "strategic" approach to honesty and morals (having it 100% on, with everyone, would be the "naive" approach of course).
I got that and espoused it as it gave me better results.
For example, we often say here that in competitive environments, you want to put your strategic foot forward, not your "always 100% honest" one.
Plus, another important axiom is that your best behavior is best reserved with other top people (so those morals are environment and people-based).
PU-worthy.
So if your environment is full of cheats, you may want to shelf the morals until you find a way to escape.
Very important. I was naive towards this.
So basically, what I mean is that when I tried to be machiavellian in the game, I actually realized that my friends were more machiavellian than me ALL ALONG. I realized I'm a beginner at this stuff and they are well-aware (not all of them of course, one is not as savvy). They told me that I was starting to try to lie (which is true, however I could understand that before they could see me coming from a mile away). So they are better liars than me, and they are better at taking care of their self-interest. That was the realization.
So basically, they are more power aware than me and more selfish and I only see it now. I like them. However, I was surprised to see that.
One can say: it's only a game. Yes, it's only a game. However, board games allow you to see people's character.
So basically even if I feel like I'm on level 7 in power dynamics and social skills in my mind compared to when I started, I'm only at level 2-3 with people more socially skilled and power-aware, like my friends.
This is what I meant by selfishness and dishonesty: I meant selfishness and Machiavellianism. My friends are a merry bunch. However, I was not aware how good they were at hiding their emotions and intentions.
I'm a beginner and I'm the learner.
Talking about real life, yes it's not the same. I agree. It's more of a realization of my friends' character and probably other people's as being more machiavellian than they portray themselves to be.
Got it.
And great you found out, I agree it can be a big realization indeed.
Hiding one's intentions or deceiving is an important skills for whenever you need it.
Hopefully one doesn't need it too much, and we may even say that developing a life where you don't need it too often is a worthy goal and a measure of personal success. But "too much" is relative, and being realists, chances are most people will need and benefit from it a lot (even while they develop that life where they will need much less).
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I talked with my friends about this. JB said that he was like this "in the game". I believe him. However, games reveal peoples' character. So I would remove the labels I put and change it by "self-interest" (WIIFT).
Certainly possible.
In general, might be worth reminding ourselves that most people would have said they're just like that in the game.
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Good point. Tough but true.