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Case study: B. the 2nd in command

#1 · January 2, 2022, 6:25 pm

Quote from John Freeman on January 2, 2022, 6:25 pm
Hello guys,
so I'm still part of the group I built about a year ago. I still organise 90% of the events we do together. So I'm informally the leader. I'm the person who put together all these people as well.
That being said, leadership is fragile. I'm having some challenges in 1:1 situation with B. who could be considered my 2nd in command. He is because he's the most power-aware and dominant (actually more than me). He likes me but accepts my leadership in many situations.
That being said, I realised that sometimes he dominates me in situations when I'm not expecting it.
His character and context
He's a loving and fun-loving person. He's laid-back and accepting. He's a self-made man as he became an engineer without a degree, only through self-teaching and experience. He's been working abroad. He has a beautiful girlfriend. He's mostly a high-quality and positive man. He engages in social climbing through "jokes" but it's not that bad that it's a problem. But he does do it often. But they're not mean jokes despite being slightly disempowering.
Situations
Example 1:
I was explaining a game to a friend at a party (social event, not explaining the rules to play) and he interrupted me to explain it further. Then after a few sentences he said: "go on". I went on (mistake).
Analysis: I accepted the interruption and his tasking
Better response: I should have said: "No problem, you can go on" to counter-task him after he interrupted me. The interruption I could have said something as well like: "wait a sec, I'm not finished" with a smile and friendly tone.
Example 2:
I'm sitting and talking with friends and he comes back "rubbing my shoulders". I said nothing. Then he does it again.
Analysis: It's a dominant but friendly behaviour. I should have either said: "Aaah thank you very much" as he's doing a service for me (I'm up he's down) or do it in the future to him to see how he reacts. Is it a friendly behaviour or a dominant behaviour? Does he accept it or does it bother him?
Context: We do hug in our group.
Global thoughts:
Basically, his dominance is either through:
Social climbing: which I'm more able to defend being more aware and more savvy with frame control
Physical dominance: touching
Tasking
So it's cool if I'm organising stuff and people respect me. However, dominating me in social situations is disempowering for me. I know now that adding value is not enough for proper leadership.
Do you guys have any thoughts or comments on this case study?

Hello guys,

so I'm still part of the group I built about a year ago. I still organise 90% of the events we do together. So I'm informally the leader. I'm the person who put together all these people as well.

That being said, leadership is fragile. I'm having some challenges in 1:1 situation with B. who could be considered my 2nd in command. He is because he's the most power-aware and dominant (actually more than me). He likes me but accepts my leadership in many situations.

That being said, I realised that sometimes he dominates me in situations when I'm not expecting it.

His character and context

He's a loving and fun-loving person. He's laid-back and accepting. He's a self-made man as he became an engineer without a degree, only through self-teaching and experience. He's been working abroad. He has a beautiful girlfriend. He's mostly a high-quality and positive man. He engages in social climbing through "jokes" but it's not that bad that it's a problem. But he does do it often. But they're not mean jokes despite being slightly disempowering.

Situations

Example 1:

I was explaining a game to a friend at a party (social event, not explaining the rules to play) and he interrupted me to explain it further. Then after a few sentences he said: "go on". I went on (mistake).

Analysis: I accepted the interruption and his tasking

Better response: I should have said: "No problem, you can go on" to counter-task him after he interrupted me. The interruption I could have said something as well like: "wait a sec, I'm not finished" with a smile and friendly tone.

Example 2:

I'm sitting and talking with friends and he comes back "rubbing my shoulders". I said nothing. Then he does it again.

Analysis: It's a dominant but friendly behaviour. I should have either said: "Aaah thank you very much" as he's doing a service for me (I'm up he's down) or do it in the future to him to see how he reacts. Is it a friendly behaviour or a dominant behaviour? Does he accept it or does it bother him?

Context: We do hug in our group.

Global thoughts:

Basically, his dominance is either through:

Social climbing: which I'm more able to defend being more aware and more savvy with frame control
Physical dominance: touching
Tasking

So it's cool if I'm organising stuff and people respect me. However, dominating me in social situations is disempowering for me. I know now that adding value is not enough for proper leadership.

Do you guys have any thoughts or comments on this case study?

Matthew Whitewood has reacted to this post.

#2 · January 2, 2022, 7:26 pm

If he does make any jokes you can make a joke on him in response. Or try pointing out that he is trying to be funny as in.

You whenever he jokes - He is trying to be amusing again. Give this guy a red nose and invite him to kids parties.

If he does some sort of dominating touch you can turn it up a notch by doing a more dominating touch or even add a tap to hit harder.

It's really good you are able to identify the powermoves by him it definitely serves as a spark to be more aware of his moves.

In an overall sense if you start growing colder with him the more powermoves he throws at you (after countering it well) he will notice it and start changing his behavior. (and since you are the leader of the group there is a high chance he knows that deteriorating relationship with you will end up with him being casted out)

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#3 · January 3, 2022, 2:09 am

I agree with your initial analysis that "it's not huge... But it matters".

We're probably dealing with yellow-level stuff -the interruption and "go on" maybe darker yellow, so to speak-.

Some ideas:

Quote from John Freeman on January 2, 2022, 6:25 pm
I was explaining a game to a friend at a party (social event, not explaining the rules to play) and he interrupted me to explain it further. Then after a few sentences he said: "go on". I went on (mistake).
Analysis: I accepted the interruption and his tasking
Better response: I should have said: "No problem, you can go on" to counter-task him after he interrupted me. The interruption I could have said something as well like: "wait a sec, I'm not finished" with a smile and friendly tone.

Another option:

Him: go on
You: (turn around, look at him, smile as if to say "what the F was that") as I was saying before B added more details...

If you want to keep it light, which is often a good idea and I'd recommend, you can smile visibly through it all and keep on smiling for some time as you resume explaining.

The key there is the pause.
The pause says "that was out of place (don't do it anymore)".

But the smile says "it's all good, I don't take it too seriously, and we're among friends".

Was it a good enough description to imagine how to deliver it in real-life?
I'm thinking that just a few seconds of video of a similar situation might help.

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#4 · January 3, 2022, 2:21 am

Quote from John Freeman on January 2, 2022, 6:25 pm
Example 2:
I'm sitting and talking with friends and he comes back "rubbing my shoulders". I said nothing. Then he does it again.
Analysis: It's a dominant but friendly behaviour. I should have either said: "Aaah thank you very much" as he's doing a service for me (I'm up he's down) or do it in the future to him to see how he reacts. Is it a friendly behaviour or a dominant behaviour? Does he accept it or does it bother him?

Yeah, it's both.

PU refers to similar cases as "affectionate dominance".

But "affectionate dominance" is more from a superior, so in this case probably more like "friendly dominance" (maybe we can come up with more specific terms for both).

I'd say 70% friendly though.

It's also similar to "grooming" in the apes world -albeit higher dominance-, so in that sense the fact that he picked you for the massage says that he also picked you as his pal.

The only issue is that the 30% dominance usually sub-communicates that he's higher than you.

How higher, or if that even applies, depends on:

How "vigorous" it was
How long
Whether it was done as a way to enter the conversation or "say hi": if it was done to enter the convo or say "hi", it was more like a "bid for attention"

So you know that better.

If it was brief and light, then little power loss.
Just touch his hand -as if you were patting yourself in the back- as if to say "there you are, good too see you, I acknowledge you"- and smile slightly as you continue your conversation.

If it was as a way to get into the conversation, then finish whatever you were saying, and bring him into the conversation.

And if it was higher dominance, as if to say "my boy", then you can think of something else.

Makes sense, does it apply?

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#5 · January 3, 2022, 11:46 am

And if it was higher dominance, as if to say "my boy", then you can think of something else.

Would the flinch work for the case of higher dominance?
Or would that only be appropriate for women when they get rubbed on the shoulders by men?

I am referring to the flinch like what Angela Merkel did to George Bush:
(Taken from the article 17 Tips to Exude Exec-Level Confidence at Work)

There's something about affectionate dominance that I despise.
It's like "why are you trying to seem friendly while dominating me?".
Maybe that's the whole point, it's a form of covert aggression.

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#6 · January 3, 2022, 12:05 pm

Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on January 3, 2022, 12:05 pm
Yeah, good recall Matthew, I also thought about that one.
But in this case, yes and no.
Some major differences are:
You're in a group of friends: it's slightly different when you're in a new environment with people you know, but see rarely, or in a more "professional" environment. The over-reaction is less calibrated in a place where, theoretically, you're all friends and all informal/chill
You / John are men: that move is more for a woman. It's OK for a woman to be uncomfortable with touch, but it's a less powerful move from a man
I personally don't see the "shoulder rub" as such a bad a move IF it comes from someone people respect, or from a friendly touchy-feely person.
There is also an element of culture of course, as people in Italian culture touch more -remember the "Davide style"? No power loss with that guy because he does it to everyone and because he's generally cool-.
And if it comes from someone above you, it might actually raise your status.
BUT if you don't like it, if the "massage therapist" is unduly taking a higher status slot above you and/or disempowering you, then absolutely it's a good idea to do something.
As to the what, I don't have a silver bullet right now so I'm very curious and open to new suggestions.
For now, I think of "minimizing / sterilizing" the power move and its effects.
In this case, you'd default back to "largely ignoring".
For example touch his hands as if to say "there you are", but do NOT turn around, and otherwise largely ignore him.
And then you address the attitude in other situations and at the GENERAL level of how you two deal with each other.
Because after all, this is often a sign, a side-effect of the general relationship and power dynamics.
Fix it at the relationship level, make it clearer that he's not above you with higher power and assertive behavior (still mixed with general warmth of course), and chances are very high that he won't come again to massage you.
But again, if anyone comes up with a good idea on how to handle this specific one, I'm very happy to hear.

Yeah, good recall Matthew, I also thought about that one.

But in this case, yes and no.

Some major differences are:

You're in a group of friends: it's slightly different when you're in a new environment with people you know, but see rarely, or in a more "professional" environment. The over-reaction is less calibrated in a place where, theoretically, you're all friends and all informal/chill
You / John are men: that move is more for a woman. It's OK for a woman to be uncomfortable with touch, but it's a less powerful move from a man

I personally don't see the "shoulder rub" as such a bad a move IF it comes from someone people respect, or from a friendly touchy-feely person.

There is also an element of culture of course, as people in Italian culture touch more -remember the "Davide style"? No power loss with that guy because he does it to everyone and because he's generally cool-.

And if it comes from someone above you, it might actually raise your status.

BUT if you don't like it, if the "massage therapist" is unduly taking a higher status slot above you and/or disempowering you, then absolutely it's a good idea to do something.

As to the what, I don't have a silver bullet right now so I'm very curious and open to new suggestions.

For now, I think of "minimizing / sterilizing" the power move and its effects.
In this case, you'd default back to "largely ignoring".
For example touch his hands as if to say "there you are", but do NOT turn around, and otherwise largely ignore him.

And then you address the attitude in other situations and at the GENERAL level of how you two deal with each other.

Because after all, this is often a sign, a side-effect of the general relationship and power dynamics.
Fix it at the relationship level, make it clearer that he's not above you with higher power and assertive behavior (still mixed with general warmth of course), and chances are very high that he won't come again to massage you.

But again, if anyone comes up with a good idea on how to handle this specific one, I'm very happy to hear.

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#7 · January 3, 2022, 12:32 pm

Thanks a lot Lucio!
This is really helpful.
Especially that I should focus on the relationship level.

I need to dwell on this further.
It seems a bit nuanced as you have outlined.

And if it comes from someone above you, it might actually raise your status.

Now that you point this out, my boss (project manager) rubbed my shoulder at an update meeting once.
It was good and raised my status because it signalled that he liked my work.

Whether it was done as a way to enter the conversation or "say hi": if it was done to enter the convo or say "hi", it was more like a "bid for attention"

I was at a friend's wedding once.
A woman that I worked with in a non-profit society once came over to my table and massaged me on the back quite dominantly.
Technically, she was above me in society back then because she was President.
I was in another key role but not President.

In that case, I saw that it was a "bid for attention" because I didn't even notice her.
Since it was quite dominant, I said

Me: Always full of surprises

As you advised, she was the friendly and touchy type so it was okay.
And the general dynamics between me & her were good.

I'm also a bit biased in this because I dislocated my shoulder.
So I prefer people not to touch my shoulder.
Although I can't expect people to know that.
Also, I don't want to make touching shoulders such a big deal.

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#8 · January 3, 2022, 2:01 pm

In this video Hemsworth massages RDJ's shoulder and RDJ handles it by completely ignoring Hemsworth during that and strikes a pose (most time he does the striking pose thing naturally).

When I watch the video here it definitely seems like RDJ is the dominant one.

What are your thoughts on this?

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#9 · January 3, 2022, 7:39 pm

Thank you very much for your quick and elaborate answers Lucio, Matthew and Growfast!

I'll answer ASAP. As said somewhere else I don't have as much free time these days as I used to have.

Don't be surprised if sometimes I only answer during the WE as it might be the only time I have to write here.

Anyway, I'll do my best to answer fast. I want to take the time to answer properly to your value-adding answers.

It could be tomorrow, depending on my workload.

Thanks again!

Going to bed now :P

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#10 · January 7, 2022, 8:19 pm

Quote from John Freeman on January 7, 2022, 8:19 pm
Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on January 3, 2022, 2:09 am
Him: go on
You: (turn around, look at him, smile as if to say "what the F was that") as I was saying before B added more details...
I like this one, smoother!

If you want to keep it light, which is often a good idea and I'd recommend, you can smile visibly through it all and keep on smiling for some time as you resume explaining.
Nice!
The key there is the pause.
The pause says "that was out of place (don't do it anymore)".
But the smile says "it's all good, I don't take it too seriously, and we're among friends".
Makes sense: pause + smile -> express boundaries non-verbally + rebuilding report
Was it a good enough description to imagine how to deliver it in real-life?
I'm thinking that just a few seconds of video of a similar situation might help.
Yes it was
Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on January 3, 2022, 2:21 am
Quote from John Freeman on January 2, 2022, 6:25 pm
PU refers to similar cases as "affectionate dominance".
But "affectionate dominance" is more from a superior, so in this case probably more like "friendly dominance" (maybe we can come up with more specific terms for both).
I'd say 70% friendly though.
It's also similar to "grooming" in the apes world -albeit higher dominance-, so in that sense the fact that he picked you for the massage says that he also picked you as his pal.
The only issue is that the 30% dominance usually sub-communicates that he's higher than you.
How higher, or if that even applies, depends on:
How "vigorous" it was
How long
Whether it was done as a way to enter the conversation or "say hi": if it was done to enter the convo or say "hi", it was more like a "bid for attention"
So you know that better.
If it was brief and light, then little power loss.
Just touch his hand -as if you were patting yourself in the back- as if to say "there you are, good too see you, I acknowledge you"- and smile slightly as you continue your conversation.
Nice move, I'll remember that one!
If it was as a way to get into the conversation, then finish whatever you were saying, and bring him into the conversation.
It was not in this case
And if it was higher dominance, as if to say "my boy", then you can think of something else.
I think it was more of this one. First he rubbed a little bit. Then as I was not reacting he rubbed more as in "my boy".
Makes sense, does it apply?
It does.
Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on January 3, 2022, 12:05 pm
I personally don't see the "shoulder rub" as such a bad a move IF it comes from someone people respect, or from a friendly touchy-feely person.
He's not that friendly touchy-feely in general with everyone.
There is also an element of culture of course, as people in Italian culture touch more -remember the "Davide style"? No power loss with that guy because he does it to everyone and because he's generally cool-.
And if it comes from someone above you, it might actually raise your status.
In this case it's not free-loving as in Davide's case. There is definitely a dominance element.
BUT if you don't like it, if the "massage therapist" is unduly taking a higher status slot above you and/or disempowering you, then absolutely it's a good idea to do something.
Yes
As to the what, I don't have a silver bullet right now so I'm very curious and open to new suggestions.
For now, I think of "minimizing / sterilizing" the power move and its effects.
In this case, you'd default back to "largely ignoring".
For example touch his hands as if to say "there you are", but do NOT turn around, and otherwise largely ignore him.
Makes sense.
And then you address the attitude in other situations and at the GENERAL level of how you two deal with each other.
Because after all, this is often a sign, a side-effect of the general relationship and power dynamics.
True. He's taking advantage of me wanting to be friendly, warm and wanting to be liked (a weakness in this case, last part: "wanting to be liked"). I'm still a bit afraid of conflict. So people who test my dominance find they can get away with dominating me in situations where I'm afraid to appear "mean" or simply dominant.
Fix it at the relationship level, make it clearer that he's not above you with higher power and assertive behavior (still mixed with general warmth of course), and chances are very high that he won't come again to massage you.
I agree this is the general fix. I found this also in other relationships. When people understand they cannot mess with you, through assertive behavior they stop trying to dominate you. Then the relationship changes.
I agree about the flinch: it signals fear, which is more appropriate for vulnerable women than for powerful men (in the making).
@Growfast: in this case of RDJ it's different in my mind for these reasons:
The body language of Hemsworth is saying: "here you are boss, I'm taking care of you boss, look at me guys, I know who's the boss and I'm not afraid to show it".
It's short
RDJ's body language is relaxed from beginning to end, he's not in a conversation or doing something else and he also shows he enjoys it. So there is a service given from Hemsworth to RDJ, which signals the power dynamics.
At the end, Hemsworth taps him on the shoulders to regain some power as in: "I know you're the boss, I'm taking care of you, but let's not exaggerate it. I showed my deference but I'm not a carpet either".
It's a mutual thing: the beginning and the end is synchronized, so they start it and they end it together, which puts them closer to the same level.
Thanks guys, very helpful!

Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on January 3, 2022, 2:09 am
Him: go on
You: (turn around, look at him, smile as if to say "what the F was that") as I was saying before B added more details...
I like this one, smoother!

If you want to keep it light, which is often a good idea and I'd recommend, you can smile visibly through it all and keep on smiling for some time as you resume explaining.

Nice!

The key there is the pause.
The pause says "that was out of place (don't do it anymore)".
But the smile says "it's all good, I don't take it too seriously, and we're among friends".

Makes sense: pause + smile -> express boundaries non-verbally + rebuilding report

Was it a good enough description to imagine how to deliver it in real-life?
I'm thinking that just a few seconds of video of a similar situation might help.

Yes it was

Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on January 3, 2022, 2:21 am
Quote from John Freeman on January 2, 2022, 6:25 pm
PU refers to similar cases as "affectionate dominance".
But "affectionate dominance" is more from a superior, so in this case probably more like "friendly dominance" (maybe we can come up with more specific terms for both).
I'd say 70% friendly though.
It's also similar to "grooming" in the apes world -albeit higher dominance-, so in that sense the fact that he picked you for the massage says that he also picked you as his pal.
The only issue is that the 30% dominance usually sub-communicates that he's higher than you.
How higher, or if that even applies, depends on:
How "vigorous" it was
How long
Whether it was done as a way to enter the conversation or "say hi": if it was done to enter the convo or say "hi", it was more like a "bid for attention"
So you know that better.
If it was brief and light, then little power loss.
Just touch his hand -as if you were patting yourself in the back- as if to say "there you are, good too see you, I acknowledge you"- and smile slightly as you continue your conversation.

Nice move, I'll remember that one!

If it was as a way to get into the conversation, then finish whatever you were saying, and bring him into the conversation.

It was not in this case

And if it was higher dominance, as if to say "my boy", then you can think of something else.

I think it was more of this one. First he rubbed a little bit. Then as I was not reacting he rubbed more as in "my boy".

Makes sense, does it apply?

It does.

Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on January 3, 2022, 12:05 pm
I personally don't see the "shoulder rub" as such a bad a move IF it comes from someone people respect, or from a friendly touchy-feely person.

He's not that friendly touchy-feely in general with everyone.

There is also an element of culture of course, as people in Italian culture touch more -remember the "Davide style"? No power loss with that guy because he does it to everyone and because he's generally cool-.
And if it comes from someone above you, it might actually raise your status.

In this case it's not free-loving as in Davide's case. There is definitely a dominance element.

BUT if you don't like it, if the "massage therapist" is unduly taking a higher status slot above you and/or disempowering you, then absolutely it's a good idea to do something.

Yes

As to the what, I don't have a silver bullet right now so I'm very curious and open to new suggestions.
For now, I think of "minimizing / sterilizing" the power move and its effects.
In this case, you'd default back to "largely ignoring".
For example touch his hands as if to say "there you are", but do NOT turn around, and otherwise largely ignore him.

Makes sense.

And then you address the attitude in other situations and at the GENERAL level of how you two deal with each other.
Because after all, this is often a sign, a side-effect of the general relationship and power dynamics.

True. He's taking advantage of me wanting to be friendly, warm and wanting to be liked (a weakness in this case, last part: "wanting to be liked"). I'm still a bit afraid of conflict. So people who test my dominance find they can get away with dominating me in situations where I'm afraid to appear "mean" or simply dominant.

Fix it at the relationship level, make it clearer that he's not above you with higher power and assertive behavior (still mixed with general warmth of course), and chances are very high that he won't come again to massage you.

I agree this is the general fix. I found this also in other relationships. When people understand they cannot mess with you, through assertive behavior they stop trying to dominate you. Then the relationship changes.

I agree about the flinch: it signals fear, which is more appropriate for vulnerable women than for powerful men (in the making).

@Growfast: in this case of RDJ it's different in my mind for these reasons:

The body language of Hemsworth is saying: "here you are boss, I'm taking care of you boss, look at me guys, I know who's the boss and I'm not afraid to show it".
It's short
RDJ's body language is relaxed from beginning to end, he's not in a conversation or doing something else and he also shows he enjoys it. So there is a service given from Hemsworth to RDJ, which signals the power dynamics.
At the end, Hemsworth taps him on the shoulders to regain some power as in: "I know you're the boss, I'm taking care of you, but let's not exaggerate it. I showed my deference but I'm not a carpet either".
It's a mutual thing: the beginning and the end is synchronized, so they start it and they end it together, which puts them closer to the same level.

Thanks guys, very helpful!

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