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Cooperative leadership VS "sisterhood ganging up"
An interesting situation from Bel's journal:
Quote from Bel on October 22, 2023, 11:28 pmLater again, after some time, we had to decide dessert.
I said to Bella:
Me: Let's get this.
Bella: But I want this.
Me: It's with lactose (I'm lactose intolerant). Don't order that, let's order this and share. [it's possible I said this bluntly, but I was on guard due to the asshole being present]
Bella: I want this.
While we were talking, Jim took the opportunity:
Jim: (to the waitress): Don't worry, they only argue like this for half an hour usually. Soon they'll be finished and we'll give you the order.
I heard this with one ear while I was talking with Bella about our choice, and did not have the possibility (or the capacity) to respond.
He took the one moment where he knew I would have to be focused on talking with Bella to power move.
The discussion was going nowhere. Bella seemed entrenched in her choice since I probably had spoken bluntly, and I don't really remember what I said.
I remember what the asshole was saying to the waitress enraged me, and I probably started speaking with a slight angry tone which was really not directed to Bella, even though it may have come across that way.
At one point, Bella seemed to be changing her mind. I said to the waitress:
Me: Ok, we'll order this [my choice].
Waitress: (to Bella) What did you want, dear?
Bella: I'd like this other choice.
Me: (sensing this was going downhill fast): Ok, let's get what you want. I won't have dessert since I'm lactose intolerant.
Bella: No, let's get what you want and we'll share.
After desserts were served, the waitress apparently insisted:
Waitress: Here the dessert. But next time I'll make sure she (pointing to Bella) gets what she wants.
Me: Yes, like the previous time: since we come here often, and my partner always gets what she wants.
Jim: That's why she's with you.
I didn't respond to Jim at this point.
This is all I remember.
I suppose I initially handled it well but later started falling for this asshole's thread expanding.
Happy to read any comments on how it went and what I could have done better.
Sounds like you locked into an escalation/showdown with Bella.
That even made Jim's power move of "they only argue like this for half an hour" "fair", in my opinion.
I wasn't there, but I can see many situations where it even was a great move to relieve some pressure and offer some support to the waitress/woman.
In my opinion, besides Bella's own behavior that Bel correctly noted, it's the waitress' behavior that was the most telling.
Since it's true that (successful) men are in general higher power than women, many women tend to have a sort of "sisterhood" for self-defense and support.
The waitress jumped in defense because she felt Bella was being cornered and forced.
Kavalier mentioned that he prefers relationships of equals.
Fair enough.
I personally prefer "men in charge, caring for her, leading for both".
Some say this is very much of "benevolent sexism".
And, in some ways... It is.
So what? It works great and most women are more than happy with it (in my experience).
Anyway, the backbone of that approach is win-win, of course.
And when you're in win-win, your partner should naturally support you and side with you, instead of the "sisterhood".
As a matter of fact, women seeking the "sisterhood" when in a relationship with you is a bad sign of a non win-win relationship.
The issue there is that, it feels to me, Bella as well never felt it was benevolent leadership, but more imposition.
Kavalier proposed some good scripts.
One more:
You: Let's get this, looks delicious, (what do you think) (<---- more collaborative, recruit her in the decision making)
Bella: But I want this.
You: oh, yeah, that one looks delicious as well. I'm afraid it's with lactose though. Look, if you want one all for yourself, go for it. If you wanna share, let's go for this
90% of the time she'd have gone for your choice.
And if not, fair enough, you still both won and you're the leader.
By the way, this is how a power-aware, collaborative woman with a "team mindset" would have said:
Waitress: Here the dessert. But next time I'll make sure she (pointing to Bella) gets what she wants.
Bella: Thank you (neutral tone, turns to you), but I'm actually more than happy to go with my husband's choice because he always picks what's best for both of us
You: thank you babe (I do indeed)
I'd actually even tell a woman I expect her to side with me because I'm in it for the both of us.
So it's only fair if she reciprocates.
Thank you Lucio.
In other words, if I understand correctly, I made a mistake in how I went to say it, but a woman who felt she was in a win win relationship would have still sided with me in this case when the waitress said her last piece.
In still other words, the issue here is not the other guy, but in my relationship.
I omitted that after having the dessert, Bella said “What I would have chosen would have been better”, and I left that unchallenged, I suppose as a way to reempower her.
But I also suppose I should start from the assumption that she didn't "know the dynamics" at the last moment, and that speaking with her now to understand the issue is the right thing to do before taking decisions.
This is very very helpful to dissect and hopefully resolve these dynamics, one way or the other.
The worst thing is not knowing why one feels one way, and thus not being able to articulate what one wants.
Awareness changes everything.
I started in life from not being aware I was being abused by my parents, I suppose this is a much lighter and more resolvable thing.
In still other words, the issue here is not the other guy, but in my relationship.
Adding some thoughts to Lucio's and your points, how often does Bella share her thoughts or ask you for advice on these challenging social situations in private?
Or if you told her that the landlord's behavior was out of line, how would she react?
Maybe that could reflect how much she trusts you to manage social situations for both of you.
Quote from Matthew Whitewood on October 23, 2023, 10:49 amIn still other words, the issue here is not the other guy, but in my relationship.
Adding some thoughts to Lucio's and your points, how often does Bella share her thoughts or ask you for advice on these challenging social situations in private?
Or if you told her that the landlord's behavior was out of line, how would she react?
Maybe that could reflect how much she trusts you to manage social situations for both of you.
It's an interesting matter.
I tended to overshare and over-rely on her in the past about how to handle social situations, now I tend to share much less.
But in this case she knew the landlord was out of line, because we have been talking about his past behavior many many times.
In this case, she knew the landlord was out of line, but she also knew I could have handled it better.
And she does he asks for my opinion in situations that concern her. But in situations where both of us are involved, she somewhat expects me to be able to handle those.
I have found that me talking about these things with her is perceived as an insecurity on my part, so I tend to avoid when possible.
Quote from Bel on October 23, 2023, 9:15 am(...)
In still other words, the issue here is not the other guy, but in my relationship.
Hey Bel, no, the scripts only apply to your case.
Otherwise, it would be out of place of me to judge your full relationship based on a single instance -plus, a disempowering power move on my part that I have no intention to pull-.
So my general considerations were general considerations.
And to assess the full relationship, you know better and Matthew's are good root-cause questions.
