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Cultures with less manipulation/narcissism?

#1 · December 24, 2020, 5:08 pm

Hello guys,

empirically, based on your travels and experience: have you noticed if some cultures/countries have less manipulative people?

Or do you think it's the same across cultures/countries? Do you think it's more a city vs countryside thing? Or direct/indirect communication culture?

It's an open conversation: I don't have any strong opinion on the topic myself. I would hypothesise that it's more commonly found in cities where there is a feeling of scarcity, where relationships are looser and where status based on appearances matters more.

Any opinion on this topic?

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#2 · December 25, 2020, 2:04 am

Very interesting topic. Thanks for sharing.
I resonate with John on the factors based on personal experience.

I hypothesise several factors

Size of cities
Small cities: less manipulation; people are more careful within a small community; becomes more family-like; kind of like villages
Big cities: more manipulation (London, Singapore, New York)
In any country, near the top of the hierarchy of any organisation, there's quite a bit of politics going on so more manipulation.
Asian cities have a more collective and community culture so less manipulation from the average person.
Note that this does not apply to near the top of the hierarchy.
Less status-driven as John has mentioned. More on respect and care for the overall community.
Dating-wise: depends on the male-female ratio from ThePowerMoves, Lucio's Dating Power Dynamics.
Need to think about this.
Does more women compared to men mean a greater tendency of manipulation among women and less manipulation from women to men?

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#3 · December 25, 2020, 2:16 am

Cool, thanks for the "rebound". Concerning your example with dating. I think that manipulation is a behavior to get what you want at the expense of somebody else. I know Jocko talks about manipulation for any kind of influence, though.

So I would tend to think that scarcity of any resource (romantic partners included) will likely trigger this behavior in the person desiring to acquire the scarce resource. My point of view might be too theoretical from this point, though. I don't have data to back it up.

However, I would also tend to think that manipulation is frown upon by a group as it is a form of deception. That is why it's covert.

That would be the 2 factors I would identify influencing the rate of manipulation in a population: scarcity of resource, importance of reputation.

If I leave my imagination wander for another factor: power differential in a given population? If it's big, more manipulation (going back to scarcity of resource).

Aha moment: maybe this is also why not manipulating people is a honest signal. You cannot fake not manipulating people.

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#4 · December 25, 2020, 9:42 am

Quote from Matthew Whitewood on December 25, 2020, 9:42 am
Cool, thanks for the "rebound".
Do you mean rebounding on the topic?
Clarifying to make sure we both understand each other.
That would be the 2 factors I would identify influencing the rate of manipulation in a population: scarcity of resource, importance of reputation.
I do think so as well.
With an abundance of resources, there is no need for competition and complex economics throughout the world.
Why put in the effort to manipulate when you can take something off the streets?
If I leave my imagination wander for another factor: power differential in a given population? If it's big, more manipulation (going back to scarcity of resource).
This can be quite an interesting point of discussion.
For example, does the average man on the street in a communist society manipulate less than that in a democratic society?
Power differential probably results in more opportunities to gain power.
And people like power in general which results in people competing for power.
And competition usually results in elements of manipulation because both arise from a conflict of interests.
Aha moment: maybe this is also why not manipulating people is a honest signal. You cannot fake not manipulating people.
Let's discuss more on this point.
How do we show people that we are not manipulating them?
In the longer term, a key factor would be delivering on your promises and keeping your word.
For first introductions, we can watch them whether they play power moves and show dishonest signals.
I have also met Machiavellian people that I wrongly believe were honest people.
They seem really good at faking honest signals.
There would always be tells, just that I miss them.
How should we look out for Machiavellian people?
Some ideas for drawing out Machiavellis
Act submissive to see if they play a power move on you
Look at how much you are losing and gaining from your relationship with them in concrete terms
Making friends with their friends
Linking back to the topic of this thread, which cultures make spotting a Machiavelli challenging?
Countries with less expressive body language and tonality can be more challenging.
I don't have enough experience here to make a concrete judgement.

Cool, thanks for the "rebound".

Do you mean rebounding on the topic?
Clarifying to make sure we both understand each other.

That would be the 2 factors I would identify influencing the rate of manipulation in a population: scarcity of resource, importance of reputation.

I do think so as well.
With an abundance of resources, there is no need for competition and complex economics throughout the world.
Why put in the effort to manipulate when you can take something off the streets?

If I leave my imagination wander for another factor: power differential in a given population? If it's big, more manipulation (going back to scarcity of resource).

This can be quite an interesting point of discussion.
For example, does the average man on the street in a communist society manipulate less than that in a democratic society?

Power differential probably results in more opportunities to gain power.
And people like power in general which results in people competing for power.
And competition usually results in elements of manipulation because both arise from a conflict of interests.

Aha moment: maybe this is also why not manipulating people is a honest signal. You cannot fake not manipulating people.

Let's discuss more on this point.
How do we show people that we are not manipulating them?
In the longer term, a key factor would be delivering on your promises and keeping your word.
For first introductions, we can watch them whether they play power moves and show dishonest signals.

I have also met Machiavellian people that I wrongly believe were honest people.
They seem really good at faking honest signals.
There would always be tells, just that I miss them.
How should we look out for Machiavellian people?

Some ideas for drawing out Machiavellis

Act submissive to see if they play a power move on you
Look at how much you are losing and gaining from your relationship with them in concrete terms
Making friends with their friends

Linking back to the topic of this thread, which cultures make spotting a Machiavelli challenging?
Countries with less expressive body language and tonality can be more challenging.
I don't have enough experience here to make a concrete judgement.

Lucio Buffalmano and leaderoffun have reacted to this post.

#5 · December 25, 2020, 3:40 pm

Quote from John Freeman on December 25, 2020, 3:40 pm
Do you mean rebounding on the topic?
Yes.
About Power differential. I was born and raised in a small protestant democratic germanic country in the middle of Europe. On a society-wide level, I noticed than in larger countries from France to USA, Brazil, Russia there is much more manipulation between the leaders and the people than in my own country.
In the longer term, a key factor would be delivering on your promises and keeping your word.
Yes, that is the power of honesty. Just be honest and you'll be considered a fair player to exchange with.
I have also met Machiavellian people that I wrongly believe were honest people.
They seem really good at faking honest signals.
There would always be tells, just that I miss them.
Yes, it's a skill that can be developed. In this case I was sharing my observation than by deciding to not manipulating people I found them to trust me more. Well, one can say that my social strategizing is manipulation and that would be another topic. However, I think it is not as I am transparent with my intentions. I really want the best for people and I wish them no harm.

Act submissive to see if they play a power move on you
Yes, but many people will do it as many people crave the feeling of power. They don't feel powerful in most of their daily life, so they will be taking this opportunity, even though
Look at how much you are losing and gaining from your relationship with them in concrete terms
Good one.
Making friends with their friends
I think it does give a lot of information about them. But I would not use it as a strategy. I believe we must detect these individuals to avoid them. If I have to know their friends to know if they're "manipulators", then we have an issue.
In my opinion, there is no shortcut to detect "manipulators". We have to make our own experiences, fail and fail until we notice patterns. And as you said, they don't advertise it. One of my supervisors I found out she is one. I had doubts in the beginning but after 1 months, I know she is. As the patterns are there: controlling, self-centered, histrionic, demeaning, distorted perceptions: we have a narcissist!
So, I would say that they're not easy to spot. The best allies to me to recognize them are:
Time: so you can see their behaviors along time in different context and other people
Emotions: your emotions will tell you if somebody is crossing your boundaries, shaming you, guilting you.
Reflection: after an encounter where something was "off", take some perspective to reflect on it.
Also, there are all these grey areas: you have genuine authentic good people who have manipulative patterns of behaviors. I know I did. In my case, I acquired most of them from my mother. I had to acknowledge them and get rid of them, one by one. They might be subtles and we think they are normal but they're harmful.
So most of the time, people who have trouble spotting manipulators had one of their parents who was one. So we don't have the proper filter to see them.
But this is another topic. However, it's so important. Going back to what you said: I can share with you what decision I made: I decided a few years ago not to manipulate people. That's it.
Of course, there are exceptions when manipulation is required. For instance with children. You cannot always reason with children so you do have to use threats and rewards. However, I think this should be the exception. Parents who use manipulation to raise their children create many problems. What I want to share is that believing that you can raise your children without any manipulation is not reality-based thinking in my opinion.

Do you mean rebounding on the topic?

Yes.

About Power differential. I was born and raised in a small protestant democratic germanic country in the middle of Europe. On a society-wide level, I noticed than in larger countries from France to USA, Brazil, Russia there is much more manipulation between the leaders and the people than in my own country.

In the longer term, a key factor would be delivering on your promises and keeping your word.

Yes, that is the power of honesty. Just be honest and you'll be considered a fair player to exchange with.

I have also met Machiavellian people that I wrongly believe were honest people.
They seem really good at faking honest signals.
There would always be tells, just that I miss them.

Yes, it's a skill that can be developed. In this case I was sharing my observation than by deciding to not manipulating people I found them to trust me more. Well, one can say that my social strategizing is manipulation and that would be another topic. However, I think it is not as I am transparent with my intentions. I really want the best for people and I wish them no harm.

Act submissive to see if they play a power move on you

Yes, but many people will do it as many people crave the feeling of power. They don't feel powerful in most of their daily life, so they will be taking this opportunity, even though

Look at how much you are losing and gaining from your relationship with them in concrete terms

Good one.

Making friends with their friends

I think it does give a lot of information about them. But I would not use it as a strategy. I believe we must detect these individuals to avoid them. If I have to know their friends to know if they're "manipulators", then we have an issue.

In my opinion, there is no shortcut to detect "manipulators". We have to make our own experiences, fail and fail until we notice patterns. And as you said, they don't advertise it. One of my supervisors I found out she is one. I had doubts in the beginning but after 1 months, I know she is. As the patterns are there: controlling, self-centered, histrionic, demeaning, distorted perceptions: we have a narcissist!

So, I would say that they're not easy to spot. The best allies to me to recognize them are:

Time: so you can see their behaviors along time in different context and other people
Emotions: your emotions will tell you if somebody is crossing your boundaries, shaming you, guilting you.
Reflection: after an encounter where something was "off", take some perspective to reflect on it.

Also, there are all these grey areas: you have genuine authentic good people who have manipulative patterns of behaviors. I know I did. In my case, I acquired most of them from my mother. I had to acknowledge them and get rid of them, one by one. They might be subtles and we think they are normal but they're harmful.

So most of the time, people who have trouble spotting manipulators had one of their parents who was one. So we don't have the proper filter to see them.

But this is another topic. However, it's so important. Going back to what you said: I can share with you what decision I made: I decided a few years ago not to manipulate people. That's it.

Of course, there are exceptions when manipulation is required. For instance with children. You cannot always reason with children so you do have to use threats and rewards. However, I think this should be the exception. Parents who use manipulation to raise their children create many problems. What I want to share is that believing that you can raise your children without any manipulation is not reality-based thinking in my opinion.

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#6 · December 25, 2020, 7:21 pm

Ok. I'll draw one preliminary conclusion based on the discussion so far:

Cultures with less manipulation could fit within these parameters: resource-abundant, hierarchically flat, with small groups where the information travels fast.

Does this reminds you of any countries? ;)

I know I'm biased. However, I just pushed the three parameters: resource, power differential and reputation to the max. That's it. Whether it is true or not I don't know. I find it interesting, though.

Cheers!

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#7 · December 26, 2020, 4:27 am

Quote from Matthew Whitewood on December 26, 2020, 4:27 am
Do you mean rebounding on the topic?
Yes.
I wasn't sure what you meant by "rebound" in quotation marks.
For example, did I go off-topic?
Yes, it's a skill that can be developed. In this case I was sharing my observation than by deciding to not manipulating people I found them to trust me more. Well, one can say that my social strategizing is manipulation and that would be another topic. However, I think it is not as I am transparent with my intentions. I really want the best for people and I wish them no harm.
My mindset is that, if my intentions add overall value to the people around me, it is okay to apply more Machiavellian strategies.
Sometimes like being less honest with overly sensitive people while giving feedback.
Or taking value from and giving less power to manipulative, value-taking individuals, which adds value to the environment by removing "bad elements".
All in all, I like to be as direct as possible.
As John says, not manipulating is an honest signal because it shows you can get your way by influencing people assertively and that you have solid skills to back up your words.
Usually, the people who lack skills need to play more games to appear more competent.
Making friends with their friends
I think it does give a lot of information about them. But I would not use it as a strategy. I believe we must detect these individuals to avoid them. If I have to know their friends to know if they're "manipulators", then we have an issue.
I would definitely avoid manipulators as much as possible.
I use the "making friends with their friends" strategy during options when avoiding them is not possible or results in missing out on opportunities
Linking to this thread on this topic of when to keep value-taking individuals around.
Cultures with less manipulation could fit within these parameters: resource-abundant, hierarchically flat, with small groups where the information travels fast.
Does this reminds you of any countries? ?
I was thinking about Luxembourg.
Would Switzerland be considered to consist primarily of small groups?
Because I think about CERN when I visited its headquarters in Geneva.
Such a huge collaboration among different professions and countries.
There's Red Cross, World Health Organisation, etc.
John: Of course, there are exceptions when manipulation is required. For instance with children. You cannot always reason with children so you do have to use threats and rewards. However, I think this should be the exception. Parents who use manipulation to raise their children create many problems. What I want to share is that believing that you can raise your children without any manipulation is not reality-based thinking in my opinion.
Quote from Book Resource List of ThePowerMoves
Will I Ever Be Good Enough? (10/10) Even if you didn’t have a narcissistic mother you will learn hugely on how parents impact children’s psyche. Including how demand and expectations of parents can weigh negatively on the children’s whole life.
It should be mandatory reading for parents.
| by K McBride
I would like to read the book "Will I Ever Be Good Enough?".
It would give a good perspective into what makes good and bad parenting.
Not sure what are other good books on parenting and raising children.
Threats and rewards can be quite direct, so it can be more aggressive but not manipulative.
I remembered Lucio mentioned that you should emotionally discourage bad behaviour and emotionally encourage good behaviour.
Rather than using physical punishments and materialistic rewards/punishments.
In terms of culture, I heard that Scandinavian countries have a solid education and upbringing for children.
Their education is more holistic and less achievement-oriented.
In a way, this is less manipulation towards children because the Scandinavian culture does not impose the achievement judge frame on the children.
Whereas, in Asian countries, the high focus on grades may make children's self-esteem overly dependent on grades.
Does anyone have experience living in Scandanavian countries and researching & understanding their cultures?
Adding to the topic of which countries have the least manipulation.

Do you mean rebounding on the topic?
Yes.

I wasn't sure what you meant by "rebound" in quotation marks.
For example, did I go off-topic?

Yes, it's a skill that can be developed. In this case I was sharing my observation than by deciding to not manipulating people I found them to trust me more. Well, one can say that my social strategizing is manipulation and that would be another topic. However, I think it is not as I am transparent with my intentions. I really want the best for people and I wish them no harm.

My mindset is that, if my intentions add overall value to the people around me, it is okay to apply more Machiavellian strategies.
Sometimes like being less honest with overly sensitive people while giving feedback.
Or taking value from and giving less power to manipulative, value-taking individuals, which adds value to the environment by removing "bad elements".

All in all, I like to be as direct as possible.
As John says, not manipulating is an honest signal because it shows you can get your way by influencing people assertively and that you have solid skills to back up your words.
Usually, the people who lack skills need to play more games to appear more competent.

Making friends with their friends
I think it does give a lot of information about them. But I would not use it as a strategy. I believe we must detect these individuals to avoid them. If I have to know their friends to know if they're "manipulators", then we have an issue.

I would definitely avoid manipulators as much as possible.
I use the "making friends with their friends" strategy during options when avoiding them is not possible or results in missing out on opportunities
Linking to this thread on this topic of when to keep value-taking individuals around.

Cultures with less manipulation could fit within these parameters: resource-abundant, hierarchically flat, with small groups where the information travels fast.
Does this reminds you of any countries? ?

I was thinking about Luxembourg.
Would Switzerland be considered to consist primarily of small groups?

Because I think about CERN when I visited its headquarters in Geneva.
Such a huge collaboration among different professions and countries.
There's Red Cross, World Health Organisation, etc.

John: Of course, there are exceptions when manipulation is required. For instance with children. You cannot always reason with children so you do have to use threats and rewards. However, I think this should be the exception. Parents who use manipulation to raise their children create many problems. What I want to share is that believing that you can raise your children without any manipulation is not reality-based thinking in my opinion.
Quote from Book Resource List of ThePowerMoves
Will I Ever Be Good Enough? (10/10) Even if you didn’t have a narcissistic mother you will learn hugely on how parents impact children’s psyche. Including how demand and expectations of parents can weigh negatively on the children’s whole life.
It should be mandatory reading for parents.
| by K McBride

I would like to read the book "Will I Ever Be Good Enough?".
It would give a good perspective into what makes good and bad parenting.
Not sure what are other good books on parenting and raising children.

Threats and rewards can be quite direct, so it can be more aggressive but not manipulative.
I remembered Lucio mentioned that you should emotionally discourage bad behaviour and emotionally encourage good behaviour.
Rather than using physical punishments and materialistic rewards/punishments.

In terms of culture, I heard that Scandinavian countries have a solid education and upbringing for children.
Their education is more holistic and less achievement-oriented.
In a way, this is less manipulation towards children because the Scandinavian culture does not impose the achievement judge frame on the children.
Whereas, in Asian countries, the high focus on grades may make children's self-esteem overly dependent on grades.

Does anyone have experience living in Scandanavian countries and researching & understanding their cultures?
Adding to the topic of which countries have the least manipulation.

#8 · December 26, 2020, 11:25 am

I wasn't sure what you meant by "rebound" in quotation marks.
For example, did I go off-topic?

Not at all. It's because in French it's an expression. I was not sure it would translate well in English, hence the quotes.

My mindset is that, if my intentions add overall value to the people around me, it is okay to apply more Machiavellian strategies.

I agree. As a companion of self-development, I would dare tell you that I think in your case this is not your priority. I would rather focus on my authenticity. Not on this forum. I'm not accusing you of anything. I mean that I noticed through your language, that you might compartmentalize your life too much. I know I did. So I think for you the priority is to integrate your different selves (how you behave with your family, at work, friends) so it's not so different. Of course, we will have different behaviors with different persons. However, I think it's important to have an integrated self. I would focus on that in your case about your self-development. I know I'm giving you a lot of unwanted advice. Let me know if it's unappropriate, man and I'll stop. Also let me know if I'm wrong.

In terms of culture, I heard that Scandinavian countries have a solid education and upbringing for children.
Does anyone have experience living in Scandanavian countries and researching & understanding their cultures?

That are the countries I was pointing towards. You can find the thread: "leaving Switzerland" with the search. I've travelled to all of them. They are solid candidates for what I'm looking for.

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#9 · December 26, 2020, 1:15 pm

Pretty sure some cultures can encourage / discourage, and thus increase/decrease the level of narcissism, as I've seen documented somewhere that narcissism has been on the rise in the last decades (albeit I personally don't think it's anything dramatic as some pundits made it out to be).

Different geo-areas also present different levels of sociopathy / psychopathy, albeit drawing the line between cultures / genes can be difficult.
But since sociopathy is about the genes/environment interaction, then I think it's safe to say that different cultures/environments can predispose, as well as "activate" genes for sociopathy / psychopathy.

So that leads to the third point: manipulation.

I've never read anything about manipulation being more or less present in different areas -also because it's tough to define and measure concept, and nobody has set out to defined / measure it.
BUT, based on the above, I'd be surprised if different cultures couldn't also encourage (or discourage) different types of manipulation. But, for now, I'll stop short of saying which cultures have more or less manipulation (and going to read now what you guys wrote as well).

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#10 · December 26, 2020, 1:33 pm

Some random notes:

Matthew: I would like to read the book "Will I Ever Be Good Enough?".
It would give a good perspective into what makes good and bad parenting.

The review here gives you already a "good enough" overview.
When I stumble upon very good books, I try to make the review extensive enough to provide 80% of the value.
So if you're short on time, it's a good quick fix.

ENVIRONMENTS WITH LESS MANIPULATION

On the assumptions so far, I'm not fully convinced about them.

Keep in mind these are all very speculative so far:

Asia has less manipulation for being more collective: not sure

I'm not convinced about this one.
I'm not sure there is a link between individualism/collectivism, and manipulation, I haven't made up my mind on it, but I can't see an obvious reason why collectivist cultures should have less manipulation.

Collectivist cultures don't completely erase hierarchies, but rather increase the weight of selflessness when it comes to judging others.
So that might increase the scope for "virtue-signaling" manipulation.

Small groups less manipulation: not sure

Small groups also mean people know each other better, and that makes personal reputation even more important.
When the need for good reputation increases, so do the advantages of effective manipulation.

So I'm not convinced that smaller places have less manipulation.

Resource-abundant places have less manipulations: probably

With this one, I might agree.

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