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Demeaning Joke and Virtue Signalling Case Study

#1 · May 21, 2023, 9:07 am

Situation:

( I and people from work meet privately to have fun, I was working remotely quite a long time, but I am going to return in the future )

Guy: By the way, when you will be back? ( To me )
Me: Monday
Guy: Oh, we will have someone to bully ( Joking tone )
Me: Oh no! ( Joking tone )
Woman: Nobody will bully you! If they try to, just tell me ( Virtue signalling, babying )
Me: ( Turn to her, smiles )

My response here was quite bad to both power moves.
One thing, it took me by surprise, and subconciously, I used defensive response ( Oh no! ), which showed weakness. As I recall, he recruited others into this frame by saying "we" so if I pushed back for example "Haha, let me see you try", it would create a frame "me against them".

He used it to distance himself from his comment while also making it harder to push back, so the best way to fight is to shock the frame:

Guy: By the way, when you will be back? ( To me )
Me: Monday
Guy: Oh, we will have someone to bully ( Joking tone )
Me: Who do you mean by "we" ( Shocks the frame, he has to explain now, even if backtracks to "it was just a joke", you still take a victory as it's shown that nobody could bully you. )

It also stops the woman from jumping in, and trying to offer her help, which even if backed by good intentions, is in the end power down for you.
If she does so regardless, the best way is to completely ignore her help, by keep talking with the guy, or turn to her and say "Thanks for your help, but I can handle things myself".

Feel free to correct me if there's something to correct or improve, or to share another way to handle such situations.

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#2 · May 21, 2023, 10:18 am

Hi DGX37,

I think your first response was pretty good, however depending on your tone you could come off as resentful.

I think it all depends on how you view the interaction: some teasing and banter between friends/ coworkers trying to overpower you.

In cases like yours (teasing) I usually go with a low energy agree and amplify or I challenge their frame in a joking manner.

This is how I wouldve handled It:

Guy: Oh, we will have someone to bully ( Joking tone )

Power duck: Hahaha, bring as many people as you want, it wont be enough to deal with me. (Joking tone, you can say It with a bit of cockiness too)

And in this case:

Woman: Nobody will bully you! If they try to, just tell me ( Virtue signalling, babying )

Power duck: Dont worry I can take care of myself. We can team up so we roast these guys even more. (Us vs them)

Both of these responses have of course a joking tone and are high energy (given that the energy of the group seems to be high) Plus they challenge the frame that youre a little kid that gets bullied and cant take care of himself.

And the low energy agree and amplify:

Guy:...

Power duck: Yeah sure. I cant wait.

And the other one:

Woman:....

Power duck: Sure I'll give you a call when the time comes dont worry about it.

You make it low energy so they look like as tryhards while you pay no attention to their jokes. I wouldnt overdo this, people could think one is a bore and a bit of an asshole, plus those responses disempower them.

If you disagree with anything feel free to point It out.

Pd:

I got the feel that you see the interaction with a "I must win" mentality, rather than with a "lets have fun" mentality and this can make you come off as resentful. (I was like that before)

Maybe Im wrong and you see it as friendly banter. However I think that pointing out that is important, plus when you are relaxed and with the intention of having fun things go better most of the time.

Kavalier has reacted to this post.

#3 · May 21, 2023, 10:31 am

Great power awareness, DGX37!

And very good analysis of what happened, and what would change with your answer.

Your proposed answer would have been a HUGE improvement indeed.

I disagree about this though:

"Thanks for your help, but I can handle things myself".

My take is that you never directly oppose obviously disempowering frames -well, almost never of course-.
Not as your "go-to response", at least.
Albeit it's not the worst option (and 100x times better than the "oh no"), the opposition still dignifies the original frame -ie.: "it's meaningful enough to address it"-, and expands on it.

Happy to also read if anyone can propose an even better alternative for the original power move.

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#4 · May 21, 2023, 10:52 am

Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on May 21, 2023, 10:52 am

Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on May 21, 2023, 10:31 am

"Thanks for your help, but I can handle things myself".

My take is that you never directly oppose obviously disempowering frames -well, almost never of course-.
Not as your "go-to response", at least.
Albeit it's not the worst option (and 100x times better than the "oh no"), the opposition still dignifies the original frame -ie.: "it's meaningful enough to address it"-, and expands on it.

Happy to also read if anyone can propose an even better alternative for the original power move.

I think it's worth highlighting this:

High-level mindsets first.

My take on this is that you want to have a stronger gut reaction to sh*t like that.

Especially when still learning.

The mindset is: "??? What are they yapping about. In NO FUCKING UNIVERSE I need this b*tch's help against this half-assed idiot"

I think this is where the concept of the "enlightened dark triad" helps.

In this case, narcissism and an unwavering belief in yourself, your personal value and power, your place in the world, and what you aim for (even though you may not still have the skills for it, it doesn't matter).

Yes, it does require a strong ego and everyone says that "ego is the enemy".

But it's not always the case: ego is a good mid-stage in development, and a solid fall-back net whenever needed.

In this case, the high ego answer is that:

It shouldn't even cross your mind as a possibility that idiot is going to bully you, and that you need a woman's help -or that you'd ever take a woman's help. You'd rather get bullied for the millennia to come, than ask her help-.

Quick story time to show this mindset in action.

Story example

I remember once in high school.

I wasn't applying myself at all because I didn't care about grades.

One teacher who enjoyed playing the mama role was sharing with us what had been told at the teachers' meeting. "Overall great, just 2 students maaaaaybe at risk", she said.
And then with lots of pauses and much emphasis, she finally shared the two names.
Apparently I was one of them.

Surprised by my total lack of any raction -I thought it was a weak ass game she was playing-, she prodded for my comment.

I shook my head, said no, and I had no comments to add.

But in my mind...

In my mind...

In my mind the answer was:

"you dumbass, playing these turkey games, you have no idea who the fuck you talking to if that thought even crossed your mind".

In my mind I was in total control of passing/not passing and was simply doing the highest ROI thing: learn what I wanted to learn, and the bare minimum on all the rest.

In truth, it wasn't fully true.
I was just not that good at some disciplines.

But it may have been just true enoguh that it could justify my stance.

How or how not true it was though, it doesn't matter that much when it comes to gut reactions.
Because it was still a damn empowering place to come from -and my way of handling for a high schooler was boss level and very eagle like-.

That's the spirit you want to adopt.

It doesn't mean it's the best approach, and a colder and calculative one without all that ego may be better.
But it's an important stage to go through for self-empowerment and confidence.

Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on May 21, 2023, 10:31 am

"Thanks for your help, but I can handle things myself".

My take is that you never directly oppose obviously disempowering frames -well, almost never of course-.
Not as your "go-to response", at least.
Albeit it's not the worst option (and 100x times better than the "oh no"), the opposition still dignifies the original frame -ie.: "it's meaningful enough to address it"-, and expands on it.

Happy to also read if anyone can propose an even better alternative for the original power move.

I think it's worth highlighting this:

High-level mindsets first.

My take on this is that you want to have a stronger gut reaction to sh*t like that.

Especially when still learning.

The mindset is: "??? What are they yapping about. In NO FUCKING UNIVERSE I need this b*tch's help against this half-assed idiot"

I think this is where the concept of the "enlightened dark triad" helps.

In this case, narcissism and an unwavering belief in yourself, your personal value and power, your place in the world, and what you aim for (even though you may not still have the skills for it, it doesn't matter).

Yes, it does require a strong ego and everyone says that "ego is the enemy".

But it's not always the case: ego is a good mid-stage in development, and a solid fall-back net whenever needed.

In this case, the high ego answer is that:

It shouldn't even cross your mind as a possibility that idiot is going to bully you, and that you need a woman's help -or that you'd ever take a woman's help. You'd rather get bullied for the millennia to come, than ask her help-.

Quick story time to show this mindset in action.

Story example

I remember once in high school.

I wasn't applying myself at all because I didn't care about grades.

One teacher who enjoyed playing the mama role was sharing with us what had been told at the teachers' meeting. "Overall great, just 2 students maaaaaybe at risk", she said.
And then with lots of pauses and much emphasis, she finally shared the two names.
Apparently I was one of them.

Surprised by my total lack of any raction -I thought it was a weak ass game she was playing-, she prodded for my comment.

I shook my head, said no, and I had no comments to add.

But in my mind...

In my mind...

In my mind the answer was:

"you dumbass, playing these turkey games, you have no idea who the fuck you talking to if that thought even crossed your mind".

In my mind I was in total control of passing/not passing and was simply doing the highest ROI thing: learn what I wanted to learn, and the bare minimum on all the rest.

In truth, it wasn't fully true.
I was just not that good at some disciplines.

But it may have been just true enoguh that it could justify my stance.

How or how not true it was though, it doesn't matter that much when it comes to gut reactions.
Because it was still a damn empowering place to come from -and my way of handling for a high schooler was boss level and very eagle like-.

That's the spirit you want to adopt.

It doesn't mean it's the best approach, and a colder and calculative one without all that ego may be better.
But it's an important stage to go through for self-empowerment and confidence.

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#5 · May 21, 2023, 11:03 am

How about - hey you can't bully your bro. Bros forever (with a Fist bump or Fist over heart)

[EDIT] I didn't see Lucios reply. Weird bug the last post I often don't see. Didn't mean to go on top of.

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#6 · May 21, 2023, 11:41 am

Quote from DGX37 on May 21, 2023, 11:41 am

Quote from Power duck on May 21, 2023, 10:18 am

I got the feel that you see the interaction with a "I must win" mentality, rather than with a "lets have fun" mentality and this can make you come off as resentful. (I was like that before)

Maybe Im wrong and you see it as friendly banter. However I think that pointing out that is important, plus when you are relaxed and with the intention of having fun things go better most of the time.

I see your point, if I answered with a serious tone to this joke "Who do you mean by we", it makes me look like I counter attack without a reason ( bad calibration ), so the way to do it is to answer in less joking but still upbeat tone, to show you are not affected by this comment while still achieving the desired effect.

As to the first paragraph, I know well that people mostly don't want to hurt me, yet the power dynamics work in the background. From my experience, perspective "let's have fun" will be used against you if you don't set boundaries and understand power dynamics. You also can still have fun, you just need you are not an easy target, and don't get too cynical about their attempts. In this scenario, the meeting was still great and I would go another time, but compromising my status is not necessary to enjoy it.

Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on May 21, 2023, 10:31 am

I disagree about this though:

"Thanks for your help, but I can handle things myself".

My take is that you never directly oppose obviously disempowering frames -well, almost never of course-.
Not as your "go-to response", at least.
Albeit it's not the worst option (and 100x times better than the "oh no"), the opposition still dignifies the original frame -ie.: "it's meaningful enough to address it"-, and expands on it.

Happy to also read if anyone can propose an even better alternative for the original power move.

As I thought about the answer I have written, I felt it it wasn't perfect, thanks for showing me the flaws in it.

I see that whether the threat is legitimate or not, you don't want to look like you depend on someone help to defend yourself, and perfectly, you don't want to push back against someone who offered help, but instead show yourself as equal or superior, joking can show you are distanced and in control:

Guy: Oh, we will have someone to bully ( Joking tone )
Woman: Nobody will bully you! If they try to, just tell me ( Virtue signalling, babying )
Me: No, It would be too easy with your help.
or
Me: I will call you to clean up after I finish them.

Shows boldness without directly opposing the frame, while also not being aggressive.

Edit: Lucio's mindset seems like a great way to naturally come up with a high-power responses, as I still had to think quite a bit about the responses above and that would not work in real-time.

Quote from Power duck on May 21, 2023, 10:18 am

I got the feel that you see the interaction with a "I must win" mentality, rather than with a "lets have fun" mentality and this can make you come off as resentful. (I was like that before)

Maybe Im wrong and you see it as friendly banter. However I think that pointing out that is important, plus when you are relaxed and with the intention of having fun things go better most of the time.

I see your point, if I answered with a serious tone to this joke "Who do you mean by we", it makes me look like I counter attack without a reason ( bad calibration ), so the way to do it is to answer in less joking but still upbeat tone, to show you are not affected by this comment while still achieving the desired effect.

As to the first paragraph, I know well that people mostly don't want to hurt me, yet the power dynamics work in the background. From my experience, perspective "let's have fun" will be used against you if you don't set boundaries and understand power dynamics. You also can still have fun, you just need you are not an easy target, and don't get too cynical about their attempts. In this scenario, the meeting was still great and I would go another time, but compromising my status is not necessary to enjoy it.

Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on May 21, 2023, 10:31 am

I disagree about this though:

"Thanks for your help, but I can handle things myself".

My take is that you never directly oppose obviously disempowering frames -well, almost never of course-.
Not as your "go-to response", at least.
Albeit it's not the worst option (and 100x times better than the "oh no"), the opposition still dignifies the original frame -ie.: "it's meaningful enough to address it"-, and expands on it.

Happy to also read if anyone can propose an even better alternative for the original power move.

As I thought about the answer I have written, I felt it it wasn't perfect, thanks for showing me the flaws in it.

I see that whether the threat is legitimate or not, you don't want to look like you depend on someone help to defend yourself, and perfectly, you don't want to push back against someone who offered help, but instead show yourself as equal or superior, joking can show you are distanced and in control:

Guy: Oh, we will have someone to bully ( Joking tone )
Woman: Nobody will bully you! If they try to, just tell me ( Virtue signalling, babying )
Me: No, It would be too easy with your help.
or
Me: I will call you to clean up after I finish them.

Shows boldness without directly opposing the frame, while also not being aggressive.

Edit: Lucio's mindset seems like a great way to naturally come up with a high-power responses, as I still had to think quite a bit about the responses above and that would not work in real-time.

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#7 · May 21, 2023, 11:42 am

My take:

Guy: By the way, when you will be back? ( To me )
You: Monday
Guy: Oh, we will have someone to bully ( Joking tone )
You: (turn to him and look him in the eye, maybe even get near him) And who might that be? ("show me your hand" to make him come out of the cover - since he said "someone" and not "you")

If he backs off, it stops there.

If not:

Guy: You of course

You: Oh, so I was right: you are a dumb asshole (disappointed and amused tone - you take the judge frame and shame him)

Woman: Nobody will bully you! If they try to, just tell me ( Virtue signalling, babying )
You: Oh, thank you 😀 (said with the amused tone of "thanks for nothing", and a facial expression of exaggerated smile and fake surprise - especially by raising your eyebrows - showing you are taking her comment as gratuitous useless fake-kindness)

click on blockquote to expand

If he enters into a frame battle where he challenges your "disrespectful words/tone" (but he most likely won't), you highlight he spoke of "bullying you", and imply that's the utmost disrespect here:

Guy: Hey you are nasty and disrespectful.

You: Well, you spoke of bullying me... (gesture of slightlty opening your hands to imply it's evident for all to see who was the asshole; slightly contracting your lips to imply it's evident)

If he uses the joke cover, you do the same:

Guy: Hey, you are disrespectful, I was only joking.

You: Same here 🙂 (facial expression of "I can play your game better than you")

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#8 · May 21, 2023, 11:53 am

Quote from Bel on May 21, 2023, 11:42 am

Guy: You of course

You: Oh, so I was right: you are a dumb asshole (disappointed and amused tone)

That would not be bad when the guy is habitual asshole, but as this guy was not the type to attack others frequently and was overall a cool guy it would be a gross calibration mistake, I can imagine everyone's heads turning to me with shocked expression if I said that.

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#9 · May 21, 2023, 11:55 am

Quote from DGX37 on May 21, 2023, 11:53 am

Quote from Bel on May 21, 2023, 11:42 am

Guy: You of course

You: Oh, so I was right: you are a dumb asshole (disappointed and amused tone)

That would not be bad when the guy is habitual asshole, but as this guy was not the type to attack others frequently and was overall a cool guy it would be a gross calibration mistake, I can imagine everyone's heads turning to me with shocked expression if I said that.

I wouldn't worry about that - IMO it would be a very good thing, and the respect of the group for you would skyrocket.

My POV on this is: he spoke of bullying you.

That's enough to warrant a strong pushback.

If he can joke about bullying you, for sure you can insult him jokingly.

If need be, you can also tone down the words I suggested.

EDIT:

Also, his usual behavior is not at stake here - his current behavior is at stake.

One can be the kindest, meekest, coolest person in the world - but if he suddenly insults you strongly, eg when you are in front of your boss or woman, he still deserves to be put in place.

Probably he deserves it even more, since now his "formerly cool behavior" starts to come across as him faking it to suddenly hit you when it can hurt the most.

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#10 · May 22, 2023, 3:00 am

Quote from Maverick on May 22, 2023, 3:00 am

Quote from DGX37 on May 21, 2023, 9:07 am

Situation:

( I and people from work meet privately to have fun, I was working remotely quite a long time, but I am going to return in the future )

Guy: By the way, when you will be back? ( To me )
Me: Monday
Guy: Oh, we will have someone to bully ( Joking tone )
Me: Oh no! ( Joking tone )
Woman: Nobody will bully you! If they try to, just tell me ( Virtue signalling, babying )
Me: ( Turn to her, smiles )

My response here was quite bad to both power moves.
One thing, it took me by surprise, and subconciously, I used defensive response ( Oh no! ), which showed weakness. As I recall, he recruited others into this frame by saying "we" so if I pushed back for example "Haha, let me see you try", it would create a frame "me against them".

He used it to distance himself from his comment while also making it harder to push back, so the best way to fight is to shock the frame:

Guy: By the way, when you will be back? ( To me )
Me: Monday
Guy: Oh, we will have someone to bully ( Joking tone )
Me: Who do you mean by "we" ( Shocks the frame, he has to explain now, even if backtracks to "it was just a joke", you still take a victory as it's shown that nobody could bully you. )

It also stops the woman from jumping in, and trying to offer her help, which even if backed by good intentions, is in the end power down for you.
If she does so regardless, the best way is to completely ignore her help, by keep talking with the guy, or turn to her and say "Thanks for your help, but I can handle things myself".

Feel free to correct me if there's something to correct or improve, or to share another way to handle such situations.

Hi DGX37,

I was not there, but it seems like this person was trying to seem cool and funny by joking in a mean manner, all the replies here on the thread are awesome! I would shame him

Guy: By the way, when you will be back? ( To me )
Me: Monday
Guy: Oh, we will have someone to bully ( Joking tone )
Me: Why would you wanna bully anyone? You must be twisted up inside.

Quote from DGX37 on May 21, 2023, 9:07 am

Situation:

( I and people from work meet privately to have fun, I was working remotely quite a long time, but I am going to return in the future )

Guy: By the way, when you will be back? ( To me )
Me: Monday
Guy: Oh, we will have someone to bully ( Joking tone )
Me: Oh no! ( Joking tone )
Woman: Nobody will bully you! If they try to, just tell me ( Virtue signalling, babying )
Me: ( Turn to her, smiles )

My response here was quite bad to both power moves.
One thing, it took me by surprise, and subconciously, I used defensive response ( Oh no! ), which showed weakness. As I recall, he recruited others into this frame by saying "we" so if I pushed back for example "Haha, let me see you try", it would create a frame "me against them".

He used it to distance himself from his comment while also making it harder to push back, so the best way to fight is to shock the frame:

Guy: By the way, when you will be back? ( To me )
Me: Monday
Guy: Oh, we will have someone to bully ( Joking tone )
Me: Who do you mean by "we" ( Shocks the frame, he has to explain now, even if backtracks to "it was just a joke", you still take a victory as it's shown that nobody could bully you. )

It also stops the woman from jumping in, and trying to offer her help, which even if backed by good intentions, is in the end power down for you.
If she does so regardless, the best way is to completely ignore her help, by keep talking with the guy, or turn to her and say "Thanks for your help, but I can handle things myself".

Feel free to correct me if there's something to correct or improve, or to share another way to handle such situations.

Hi DGX37,

I was not there, but it seems like this person was trying to seem cool and funny by joking in a mean manner, all the replies here on the thread are awesome! I would shame him

Guy: By the way, when you will be back? ( To me )
Me: Monday
Guy: Oh, we will have someone to bully ( Joking tone )
Me: Why would you wanna bully anyone? You must be twisted up inside.

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