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Do not idolize people: it's tremendously disempowering (Eminem & Tyson)
I'm working on a video on Mike Tyson, and I'm watching several documentaries / videos / interaction from him.
I stumbled across this one with Eminem:
Eminem: (gushes like a starstruck groupie)
Tyson: well, you're not chopped liver yourself
I was extremely surprised by Eminem's behavior.
Here is a huge star himself, a #1. and champion himself in many ways, and he's unwittingly putting himself so farther below the social hierarchy.
Eminem's own reply was also extremely disempowering.
Tyson replies says:
Stop prostrating yourself, you've also done great things, treat me as an equal.
Which is a normal reaction.
We've already talked about this: unless one is a huge narcissist, people don't want to be treated as "different".
When you idolize and put people on a pedestal, you're not just raising them too high to a point where they're getting uncomfortable, but you're also lowering yourself down by comparison.
It's OK to put people higher up when they're farther ahead in life. As a matter of fact, you should do that.
But idolization is different.
Idolization means you stop seeing people as humans.
Idolization:
- Makes the receiver feel uncomfortable: idolization is a double edged sword, does it mean they need to be "perfect" now, that they can't be human, and treated as humans?
- Breaks rapport: how can you connect with someone, if you're at such different levels?
- Possibly makes the idol despise you: people don't like to interact with value-less and powerless folks. And it makes them feel like the only reason you like them is because of BS idealization, not because you truly appreciate the individual
- Disempowers you: idoalization indirectly says "I can't add any value to you", as well as placing yourself way too far lower down on the social hierarchy
I was extremely surprised by Eminem's behavior.
Here is a huge star himself, a #1. and champion himself in many ways, and he's unwittingly putting himself so farther below the social hierarchy.
Eminem's own reply was also extremely disempowering.
That seems so unlike Eminem.
It makes the conversation so uncomfortable and hard to continue.
When you idolize and put people on a pedestal, you're not just raising them too high to a point where they're getting uncomfortable
Idolisation seems very different from pulling people up socially.
Instead, it seems like pushing people away to an imaginary place.
Stop prostrating yourself, you've also done great things, treat me as an equal.
Mike Tyson was repeatedly trying to break Eminem out of his loop.
Tyson was talking about humble beginnings and losing many battles to be where he is to put things into perspective.
Eminem totally missed this chance to build rapport by talking about his early days in rap and music.
Instead, he kept pushing him away.
It's OK to put people higher up when they're farther ahead in life. As a matter of fact, you should do that.
True mentors keep pulling you up and empowering you.
You never have to worry about putting them higher up.
But this is more about acknowledging their skills, experience, and knowledge.
Your mentor should serve as a reminder of a growth mindset that, if they can achieve that much as a human, you can achieve that much as well.
Matthew: Mike Tyson was repeatedly trying to break Eminem out of his loop.
Tyson was talking about humble beginnings and losing many battles to be where he is to put things into perspective.
Eminem totally missed this chance to build rapport by talking about his early days in rap and music.
Exactly!
I like Eminem, but the whole thing was a cringe-fest.
Eminem had this idea in his mind of "invincible Mike", and Tyson kept rebuffing that, putting things in perspective, saying he peaked in his 20's and after that it was other guys' time, and even going as far as to say he was scared before walking to the ring.
Tyson has become very wise, by the way, for example when he said that "if you aim at being #1 you'll be disappointed as the world #1 spot is only momentary".
But Eminem kept missing on those deeper threads, and clung to his idolized image, breaking rapport and making for a very shallow conversation.
Little later Eminem said "I feel that you can walk in the ring and beat anyone (...) if you punched me I would die (...), you can punch a brick wall and make a hole", all of which was pure childlike idolization fantasy.
To which again Tyson had to reply "I don't even have that mentality in me anymore", "it was accuracy and speed more than power", and "that aggressive mindset is poor for life success".
I got lots of respect for Tyson by the way, he became a truly wise man and drops wisdom nuggets wrapped in informal, street-like language that is very unique to him.
It is more impressive to be wise after all those hard blows to the head, on the other side Eminen is supossed to be someone with high verbal IQ, yet from what I am reading here he completely blotched this opportunity.
"Idolisation seems very different from pulling people up socially.
Instead, it seems like pushing people away to an imaginary place."
I love it!
I would add that, in extreme cases, you may end sacrificing the real person on the altar of the imaginary idol! also your loyalty would be more to your idea of that person and what you supposed his will should be, than to the true wishes of said individual.
Little later Eminem said "I feel that you can walk in the ring and beat anyone (...) if you punched me I would die
Well the second part may be closer to reality: https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-38992393
"While no official figures are available on one-punch deaths, the campaign group One Punch Can Kill has recorded more than 80 fatalities since 2007.
Many of the cases have attracted media attention - in large part because it seems extraordinary that one punch can kill."
"Last October, Richard Eveleigh was jailed for killing his best friend of 45 years, Paul Lightowler, with a single punch in what the court heard was a "silly" row."
Stef: It is more impressive to be wise after all those hard blows to the head
Indeed, I thought the same actually.
It probably helped that many of Tyson's matches ended early and rarely went the full distance :)
Stef: in extreme cases, you may end sacrificing the real person on the altar of the imaginary idol!
Absolutely!
Maybe one could say that's the precise description of "idolization".
shaiapouf
This guy here was a perfect example of someone who did that.
Togashi is a genious, everthing that happens in his manga seems to happen for a very subtle, deep and symbolic reasson.
Neferpitou doesn’t try to force any ideal on Meruem. When they think Meruem might be in danger they immediately find him and go to his side without worrying if he isn’t where he is supposed to be. Whereas Shaiapouf goes to the room Meruem was supposed to be if he were the perfect king Shaiapouf himself wishes for.
Finally these two characters perfectly describe the difference between empathy and sympathy.
