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Enforcing boundaries with manipulative girl.

#1 · September 4, 2023, 12:09 am

Quote from Power Duck on September 4, 2023, 12:09 am
Hello guys,
Some time ago I mentioned meeting a manipulative girl in my debate club. Well some of us met again to talk a month ago and she and I got along pretty well, however I was still a bit wary of her. That same day she gave me her discord and proposed me to talk online, so we chatted a bit.
After some days I realized that maybe she was playing games or simply enjoyed mens attention a lot because she went from asking to talk 3 days straight to not messaging to me for a week. Before that she cancelled plans to talk online at the last moment and without telling me because she had found a better thing to do although I was a bit late, so at the moment I thought that was the reason for her going to do something else.
So after all these initial games between me and her (although I'm not sure if she played games but it's very likely). We eventually ended talking again and meeting to play some videogames (now I was determined to be straight and direct) alongside another guy of the club. Yesterday she said that she would play at night as usual, so the three of us met to play again. When the night arrived she said nothing, so I asked her if she would play or not, she told me that she wouldn't, I was tired of playing games with people so I decided to take the lead and stablish some boundaries, that is: if you cancel a plan you have to tell people in advances. She apologized and said that today she could and would play.
So today it is and she did the same thing again, and even played some games, here's the conv:
Power Duck: You what, You dont care about anything don't you (In spanish it was way shorter and in a way that could be considered a "joke" but very dominant and possibly value taking)
Girl: I'm playing a game
Power Duck: are you gonna stay in that game or come with me to play this other game.
Girl: with my friends
Power Duck: ok
Girl: I'm playing some matches, sorry.
Power Duck: what a disappointment at least I hope that when it's something important about the club you tell us.
Girl: what's that about a disappointment
Power Duck: Girl I told you yesterday I organize my day so I can play at night, and that if you don't want or can't play that you say it. You told me "ok" and if I start considering someone a friend I expect a minimum of respect.
Girl: precisely that's why I didn't say nothing about playing. I was going to play with the group I always play with.
Power Duck: buddy wouldn't that be the other way around? (As in if she cancels she first tells me/whoever plays)
Girl: Besides I never told you that we would play
Power Duck: sends her message saying "tomorrow we play"
Girl: I'm talking about today.
Power Duck: 🤦🤦Look let's leave this as a misunderstanding. But from now on whereas for the club or for any other thing if you cancel something you say it, ok?
Girl: okay (I asked in Spanish she answered me in English, could be a power move)
Power Duck: is that ok?
Girl: I'm sorry :(
Power Duck: Come on, I think youre really cool (I used an expression in Spanish used when you really like someone as a friend) and I don't want to argue over some bs. Don't worry but don't forget to say it when you can't.
No more messages were sent
I see lots of things I did wrong here, but I also see lots of things I did well, that is going directly for the solution instead on focusing on what she was thinking or not. I should've not sent the " I think you're really cool" although at the moment I meant it, however after the emotional spike now I know what truly happened:
She didn't want to recognize that she committed a mistake or that she didn't even bother to tell me.
The fact that she didn't answer my last message building rapport and pulling her up, as well as her low investment means that actually, she didn't give a f, she just wanted to get done with that and keep playing.
She does apologize A LOT (in this and in past interactions), so I'm begining to think this is something she does to avoid being held accountable. Says sorry and, there, everything fixed.
She doesn't respect other people's time and doesn't respect others. Her past behaviour gives me the subcomunication of "I talk to you because I'm bored and don't have anything better to do".
So overall I think I did good. I voiced my concerns but failed because I pulled her up when she did nothing to deserve it. Maybe I frame myself as needy, (and no wonder why, I'm at home alone studying and barely have any human interaction, not very hard to get emotional over this) However I avoided a bigger escalation that was going nowhere and she has seen that she shouldn't mess with me.
The thing that I find funny is how she often complains about most people not being worthy of trust. However she herself exhibits this very behaviour she complains about even with straight shooters (no covert bragging intended).
So lesson learned. Watch people's actions not words, just because someone got burned in the past doesn't mean he's going to appreciate decent behaviour.
Feel free to give any thoughts on the matter.
Cheers.
P.S:
And if you're wondering. Yeah, at the beginning I was starting to like her, romantically of course. However after fixing my attachment issues and after these displays of fantastic behaviour I'm starting to lose more and more respect. A bit of a shame she uses her intelligence and charm to deceive.
You were right John. I actually ended up failing and thinking that she wouldn't be as bad as she appeared to be. Well it's a good thing I learned my lesson here.

Hello guys,

Some time ago I mentioned meeting a manipulative girl in my debate club. Well some of us met again to talk a month ago and she and I got along pretty well, however I was still a bit wary of her. That same day she gave me her discord and proposed me to talk online, so we chatted a bit.

After some days I realized that maybe she was playing games or simply enjoyed mens attention a lot because she went from asking to talk 3 days straight to not messaging to me for a week. Before that she cancelled plans to talk online at the last moment and without telling me because she had found a better thing to do although I was a bit late, so at the moment I thought that was the reason for her going to do something else.

So after all these initial games between me and her (although I'm not sure if she played games but it's very likely). We eventually ended talking again and meeting to play some videogames (now I was determined to be straight and direct) alongside another guy of the club. Yesterday she said that she would play at night as usual, so the three of us met to play again. When the night arrived she said nothing, so I asked her if she would play or not, she told me that she wouldn't, I was tired of playing games with people so I decided to take the lead and stablish some boundaries, that is: if you cancel a plan you have to tell people in advances. She apologized and said that today she could and would play.

So today it is and she did the same thing again, and even played some games, here's the conv:

Power Duck: You what, You dont care about anything don't you (In spanish it was way shorter and in a way that could be considered a "joke" but very dominant and possibly value taking)
Girl: I'm playing a game
Power Duck: are you gonna stay in that game or come with me to play this other game.
Girl: with my friends
Power Duck: ok
Girl: I'm playing some matches, sorry.
Power Duck: what a disappointment at least I hope that when it's something important about the club you tell us.
Girl: what's that about a disappointment
Power Duck: Girl I told you yesterday I organize my day so I can play at night, and that if you don't want or can't play that you say it. You told me "ok" and if I start considering someone a friend I expect a minimum of respect.
Girl: precisely that's why I didn't say nothing about playing. I was going to play with the group I always play with.
Power Duck: buddy wouldn't that be the other way around? (As in if she cancels she first tells me/whoever plays)
Girl: Besides I never told you that we would play
Power Duck: sends her message saying "tomorrow we play"
Girl: I'm talking about today.
Power Duck: 🤦🤦Look let's leave this as a misunderstanding. But from now on whereas for the club or for any other thing if you cancel something you say it, ok?
Girl: okay (I asked in Spanish she answered me in English, could be a power move)
Power Duck: is that ok?
Girl: I'm sorry :(
Power Duck: Come on, I think youre really cool (I used an expression in Spanish used when you really like someone as a friend) and I don't want to argue over some bs. Don't worry but don't forget to say it when you can't.
No more messages were sent

I see lots of things I did wrong here, but I also see lots of things I did well, that is going directly for the solution instead on focusing on what she was thinking or not. I should've not sent the " I think you're really cool" although at the moment I meant it, however after the emotional spike now I know what truly happened:

She didn't want to recognize that she committed a mistake or that she didn't even bother to tell me.
The fact that she didn't answer my last message building rapport and pulling her up, as well as her low investment means that actually, she didn't give a f, she just wanted to get done with that and keep playing.
She does apologize A LOT (in this and in past interactions), so I'm begining to think this is something she does to avoid being held accountable. Says sorry and, there, everything fixed.
She doesn't respect other people's time and doesn't respect others. Her past behaviour gives me the subcomunication of "I talk to you because I'm bored and don't have anything better to do".

So overall I think I did good. I voiced my concerns but failed because I pulled her up when she did nothing to deserve it. Maybe I frame myself as needy, (and no wonder why, I'm at home alone studying and barely have any human interaction, not very hard to get emotional over this) However I avoided a bigger escalation that was going nowhere and she has seen that she shouldn't mess with me.

The thing that I find funny is how she often complains about most people not being worthy of trust. However she herself exhibits this very behaviour she complains about even with straight shooters (no covert bragging intended).

So lesson learned. Watch people's actions not words, just because someone got burned in the past doesn't mean he's going to appreciate decent behaviour.

Feel free to give any thoughts on the matter.

Cheers.

P.S:

And if you're wondering. Yeah, at the beginning I was starting to like her, romantically of course. However after fixing my attachment issues and after these displays of fantastic behaviour I'm starting to lose more and more respect. A bit of a shame she uses her intelligence and charm to deceive.

You were right John. I actually ended up failing and thinking that she wouldn't be as bad as she appeared to be. Well it's a good thing I learned my lesson here.

John Freeman has reacted to this post.

#2 · September 4, 2023, 8:32 am

Hmmm, don't wanna sound overly critical, but I didn't have a good feeling on this.

First things first.

So even before looking at enforcing boundaries, I'd look at the power dynamics foundations.

And the overall dynamic, it felt to me reading this, is that you're chasing her bad.

Her "I'm sorry" was a power move that thread-expanded on the chasing dynamics.

Ie.: you wanting something from her, her not to giving it to you, you getting upset, and her "having to say sorry" to patch things up.

That didn't warrant a reply, and instead, your reply even built her up and chased her again to "make things good".
Felt like you needed her friendship.
Lost a lot of power there.

P.S.:
If it's difficult to translate without losing meaning, feel free to use the original Spanish version first, may help to better understand.

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#3 · September 4, 2023, 8:37 am

As for enforcing boundaries, you chasing the enforcement is still chasing, I'm afraid.

Especially via text.

Much better to tell her that in person.
Or to call her.
Or, third best, a quick audio message, and then you drop it.

Anf if you already texted, no more replies after she says "sorry" or whatever.
Not replying and letting her send the last text is very important to re-empower yourself.
Ideally, she'll re-initiate again later on or come to you.
SHE has to chase your renewed respect, interest, and friendship.

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#4 · September 4, 2023, 9:03 am

*Message deleted

#5 · September 4, 2023, 9:17 am

Quote from Power Duck on September 4, 2023, 9:17 am
Thanks Lucio.
So taking into account the things you mention, here's what I should've done:
Keep myself emotionally grounded and detached.
Invest little.
Don't go straight to trying to solve the issue, that's what the other person should do.
Only empower him if the other person tries to rebuild rapport/recognizes his mistake.
Checking my mental state to see if I'm chasing for friendship/apology or not.
Be ready to break ties if necessary.
Don't engage in nothing right after telling the other person about your boundaries.
Of course nothing up there is absolute, it can change depending in context.
Although I do end up as chasing, my texting in Spanish doesn't give me that much of a feeling of chasing, maybe it's because of the difference in language. And yeah as you mention I wanted an apology, both because I will have to work with her in club matters and because I actually thought she was a cool friend.
Here's the conv in Spanish:
Power Duck: Tú que. Pasas de todo no
Girl: Estoy en el Lol
Power Duck: te vas a quedar en el Lol o te vienes conmigo al de disparos
Girl: con mis amigos
Power Duck: Va (high power version of ok in Spanish: "vale")
Girl: en ranked, sorry
Power Duck: menuda decepción, espero que por lo menos cuando sea algo importante del club avises.
Girl: como que decepción.
Power Duck: Girl te comenté ayer que me organizo para jugar, y que si no quieres jugar al juego o no puedes que avises con antelación. Me dijiste que vale, si yo considero o empiezo a considerar a una persona como amiga espero un trato minimo.
Girl: pero por eso directamente no he dado señal. porque no iba a jugar. iba a jugar con mi grupo de siempre esta vez.
Power Duck: Chocho pero sera al revés entonces no? (Thats a slang when referring to a woman friend)
Girl: y no te he dicho en ningun momento "luego jugamos"
Power Duck: links message saying: "mañana shi (si)"
Girl: pero digo hoy
Power Duck: 🤦🤦 Mira lo dejamos mejor en que es un malentendido. Pero de ahora en adelante tanto para el club como para cualquier otra cosa si se queda y se cancela se avisa, vale?
Girl: okay
Power Duck: Te parece bien?
Girl: lo siento :(
Power Duck: Venga, que me caes dpm (de puta madre) y no voy a pelear por una gilipollez. (In case you understand spanish, I meant that I wouldn't argue over a misunderstanding)
Power Duck: Don't worry pero acuérdate de avisar la prox. (próxima)
Cheers.

Thanks Lucio.

So taking into account the things you mention, here's what I should've done:

Keep myself emotionally grounded and detached.
Invest little.
Don't go straight to trying to solve the issue, that's what the other person should do.
Only empower him if the other person tries to rebuild rapport/recognizes his mistake.
Checking my mental state to see if I'm chasing for friendship/apology or not.
Be ready to break ties if necessary.
Don't engage in nothing right after telling the other person about your boundaries.

Of course nothing up there is absolute, it can change depending in context.

Although I do end up as chasing, my texting in Spanish doesn't give me that much of a feeling of chasing, maybe it's because of the difference in language. And yeah as you mention I wanted an apology, both because I will have to work with her in club matters and because I actually thought she was a cool friend.

Here's the conv in Spanish:

Power Duck: Tú que. Pasas de todo no
Girl: Estoy en el Lol
Power Duck: te vas a quedar en el Lol o te vienes conmigo al de disparos
Girl: con mis amigos
Power Duck: Va (high power version of ok in Spanish: "vale")
Girl: en ranked, sorry
Power Duck: menuda decepción, espero que por lo menos cuando sea algo importante del club avises.
Girl: como que decepción.
Power Duck: Girl te comenté ayer que me organizo para jugar, y que si no quieres jugar al juego o no puedes que avises con antelación. Me dijiste que vale, si yo considero o empiezo a considerar a una persona como amiga espero un trato minimo.
Girl: pero por eso directamente no he dado señal. porque no iba a jugar. iba a jugar con mi grupo de siempre esta vez.
Power Duck: Chocho pero sera al revés entonces no? (Thats a slang when referring to a woman friend)
Girl: y no te he dicho en ningun momento "luego jugamos"
Power Duck: links message saying: "mañana shi (si)"
Girl: pero digo hoy
Power Duck: 🤦🤦 Mira lo dejamos mejor en que es un malentendido. Pero de ahora en adelante tanto para el club como para cualquier otra cosa si se queda y se cancela se avisa, vale?
Girl: okay
Power Duck: Te parece bien?
Girl: lo siento :(
Power Duck: Venga, que me caes dpm (de puta madre) y no voy a pelear por una gilipollez. (In case you understand spanish, I meant that I wouldn't argue over a misunderstanding)
Power Duck: Don't worry pero acuérdate de avisar la prox. (próxima)

Cheers.

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#6 · September 4, 2023, 9:32 am

I'd consider the possibility she's "emotionally/power whoring".

Ie.:

All these guys want to play -or "play"- with me, chase me, and invest... And I feel so good about it.

As for "how you did", you know better because I only saw a small portion of texts.
And the idea of enforcing boundaries and demanding more respectful behavior -and seeking confirmation- is great, a HUGE step forward to 90%+ of guys who'd have just kept chasing and accepting everything.

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#7 · September 4, 2023, 9:37 am

*message deleted

......

I fully agree about emotionally whoring.

From her behaviour in other group conversations I get the feeling that she likes the attention. Forgot to add this, but the second day the group met she was really flirtatious with me, touching while talking and when she said goodbye she gave a hug and squeezed more than normal. Seems like she has big mental health issues.

Well I know of someone who isn't going to play her games.

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#8 · September 4, 2023, 9:53 am

And deep thanks Lucio. I appreciate the help.

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#9 · September 4, 2023, 11:13 am

Quote from Power Duck on September 4, 2023, 9:37 am
Well I know of someone who isn't going to play her games.

Now you talking :).

If that's the case that she's someone looking for that emotional/power validation, it's a form of emotional manipulation.
Not very "dangerous", but still disempowering, time-wasting, and a drag on someone's life. And you have no space for that :).

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#10 · September 4, 2023, 11:34 am

Quote from John Freeman on September 4, 2023, 11:34 am
First, props to you Power Duck for the commitment to learning.
I have the same feeling as Lucio: I could not help but see a lot of investment from you. You guys already explored it so I won’t say much more. I will comment on the mindset of this particular situation: when we’re attracted to a female we feel like we « have to have her ». It’s almost an animal/ego thing. So I think it’s important to recognize it emotionally just for awareness’s sake. Even if we don’t do anything about it. You guys used « emotions » several times and I think that it was what was at stake. I think she seduced you and then you did not have much choice than to deal within this frame. Some say that attraction is not a choice. I think it’s both true and wrong. For instance when I learned that falling in love was self-hypnosis (of course it’s debatable): we think about the person when the person is absent and we feel these feelings. Well we don’t have to. Falling in love is a choice. It may sound harsh but if one takes perspective and distance one can see oneself falling in love and not do it. So maybe this makes sense to you somehow in this context.
Then it comes down to the kind of people we’re attracted to. And if we have had negative parental programming we can end up being attracted to the wrong type of person. They make us feel strong emotions so we think it’s the right person. But it’s often not the case. If you’re interested in this topic I can share a book which talks about this.
About your comment on my remark: there’s no way out of our own experiences. That’s how we learn. I’m totally neutral that what I told you happened. I don’t want to thread expand on this. This paragraph to normalize that we have to go through certain experiences to learn . It’s why it’s so worthwhile and there is no substitute for experience. I hope this paragraph makes sense and my communication did not miss the point. If it did please ignore.
About her: she’s probably immature and on the manipulative side as we already talked about. These people are good seducers. This is their survival strategy. But if one observe them one can see the shallowness and that it’s mostly about exciting/charming other people. Poor inner life.
So I don’t want to give you an advice. I want to tell you that how I perceive you I think you’re quite mature. So I think that more mature women (not age but mentality) would fit you better. I mean emotionally as well. I could be wrong. As a friend I think you deserve someone who respects you. Even for a hook-up.
Finally my opinion is that as we grow in self-esteem we don’t feel so much needing other people. We are more self-satisfied. So it takes higher quality people for us to be interested in investing in them.
I hope there will be some things that could be useful to you in there. Open to comments as usual.

First, props to you Power Duck for the commitment to learning.

I have the same feeling as Lucio: I could not help but see a lot of investment from you. You guys already explored it so I won’t say much more. I will comment on the mindset of this particular situation: when we’re attracted to a female we feel like we « have to have her ». It’s almost an animal/ego thing. So I think it’s important to recognize it emotionally just for awareness’s sake. Even if we don’t do anything about it. You guys used « emotions » several times and I think that it was what was at stake. I think she seduced you and then you did not have much choice than to deal within this frame. Some say that attraction is not a choice. I think it’s both true and wrong. For instance when I learned that falling in love was self-hypnosis (of course it’s debatable): we think about the person when the person is absent and we feel these feelings. Well we don’t have to. Falling in love is a choice. It may sound harsh but if one takes perspective and distance one can see oneself falling in love and not do it. So maybe this makes sense to you somehow in this context.

Then it comes down to the kind of people we’re attracted to. And if we have had negative parental programming we can end up being attracted to the wrong type of person. They make us feel strong emotions so we think it’s the right person. But it’s often not the case. If you’re interested in this topic I can share a book which talks about this.

About your comment on my remark: there’s no way out of our own experiences. That’s how we learn. I’m totally neutral that what I told you happened. I don’t want to thread expand on this. This paragraph to normalize that we have to go through certain experiences to learn . It’s why it’s so worthwhile and there is no substitute for experience. I hope this paragraph makes sense and my communication did not miss the point. If it did please ignore.

About her: she’s probably immature and on the manipulative side as we already talked about. These people are good seducers. This is their survival strategy. But if one observe them one can see the shallowness and that it’s mostly about exciting/charming other people. Poor inner life.

So I don’t want to give you an advice. I want to tell you that how I perceive you I think you’re quite mature. So I think that more mature women (not age but mentality) would fit you better. I mean emotionally as well. I could be wrong. As a friend I think you deserve someone who respects you. Even for a hook-up.

Finally my opinion is that as we grow in self-esteem we don’t feel so much needing other people. We are more self-satisfied. So it takes higher quality people for us to be interested in investing in them.

I hope there will be some things that could be useful to you in there. Open to comments as usual.

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