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Frames that cannot be broken
It seems to me there are some frames that you cannot maintain without appearing like an asshole or the person doing something wrong.
I will give an extreme example and I will give a realistic scenario.
Extreme example:
If a man were to walk up to a random old lady on the street and punched her and knocked her out for no reason.
It wouldn't matter what frame control technique he used, he would look like a thug and asshole.
Now, if we were to look at a more realistic example:
If a man were on the train and he was sitting in the seat for disabled people and a person with a broken leg walked onto the train and wanted the disabled seat and the man refused to give it to him, he would look like the person who is doing something wrong.
It seems to me the best way to prevent power showdowns, and putting yourself in situations that make you look bad is to not put yourself in those situations in the first place.
So my question is, is it possible to maintain your frames in situations where you're the person doing something wrong? Are there examples of people doing it successfully throughout history?
Hello Roger,
to me it’s not about having “unbrokenable frames”. It’s about being able to maintain useful/value-giving/life-affirming/eagle-like frames when people are projective negative frames (on you or the situation) and it’s not warranted.
If someone makes a mistake or does some prejudice maintaining he’s innocent when it’s obvious he’s not is not conducting to growth or collaboration. It’s also damaging for the self-esteem as one self-frame negatively.
So I would personally avoid it, own the mistake and apologize. You fuck up you own it and do better next time. People will respect you more and you will respect yourself more.
Quote from John Freeman on July 13, 2023, 6:36 pmHello Roger,
to me it’s not about having “unbrokenable frames”. It’s about being able to maintain useful/value-giving/life-affirming/eagle-like frames when people are projective negative frames (on you or the situation) and it’s not warranted.
If someone makes a mistake or does some prejudice maintaining he’s innocent when it’s obvious he’s not is not conducting to growth or collaboration. It’s also damaging for the self-esteem as one self-frame negatively.
So I would personally avoid it, own the mistake and apologize. You fuck up you own it and do better next time. People will respect you more and you will respect yourself more.
Hello John,
That's a great answer and everything you said is true. However, what I'm interested in are the limits of frame control and charisma.
Is it possible to do something most people would think is wrong and get everybody on your side or have people like you?
Is it possible to act like a complete asshole and get everybody on your side?
How much can somebody influence reality to their advantage?
I can think of a few examples:
Donald Trump
He has lied many times, said things that would get most people fired or socially ostracized yet he was able to maintain his frame and win the 2016 presidential election. I have never seen anybody do what he was able to do.
Michael Jackson
It was never proved that he touched kids in an inappropriate way but a lot of people think he is guilty and it doesn't change their opinion of him. People don't care because he is Michael Jackson.
Ted Bundy
Ted Bundy had women writing love letters to him.
The judge who gave him the death sentence complimented him:
"Take care of yourself, young man. I say that to you sincerely," he said. "I say that to you sincerely; take care of yourself. It is an utter tragedy for this court to see such a total waste of humanity, I think, as I've experienced in this courtroom. You're a bright young man. You'd have made a good lawyer and I would have loved to have you practice in front of me, but you went another way, partner. I don't feel any animosity toward you. I want you to know that. Take care of yourself."
The only tool that I know of that allows people to have that type of influence is charisma.
There is another method but it's not practical for the average person. Create a military or cult style environment where you control everything around you. What is acceptable. What isn't acceptable.
Warzone environment are also another example where the normal rules of reality don't apply.
@Lucio Buffalmano
OFF-TOPIC
Michael Jackson would be a great person to analyze from a power and seduction perspective.
He was shorter than the average person. He was underweight, he had a high-pitch voice, he was weird. He was childlike, He had a very soft and quiet presence about him (when he wasn't on stage). Yet, millions of women like him. Cried at his concerts. And in general, he had an unbelievable amount of influence on people.
He wasn't an "Alpha male" Andrew Tate type of person.
Andrew Tate is a typical alpha male. Tall, deep and loud voice, muscular, successful, expensive cars, confident but if you were to ask women who they find more attractive, I'm sure the answer would be Michael Jackson. If you were to ask people in general who they like more the answer would be Michael Jackson.
Doesn't this prove that a lot of the manosphere/red pill theories are not true?
