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Friend who goes against power dynamics in dating

#1 · September 2, 2023, 4:51 am

One of my friends who had struggled with dating was close to breakup again. In the past few years he's been in a few relationships but ultimately all the girls left him. As I was going through the dating section in PU, I thought about sharing some good points with him especially the "gain power and move forward" strategy. And here is his reply:

So in my opinion, the whole concept of power/leverage having anything to do with attraction is just an example of an unhealthy relationship. I think that with an emotionally safe and stable partner, power dynamics aren't as pronounced if they even exist at all and neither partner's attraction is based on that power dynamic

Well, I really face palmed. I think he's too naive and way too deep in the "therapy" frame and also a simp. Just wondering if anybody else also observed this kind of critique from men who are clueless about dating. On one hand, probably a huge market for SU. But also, men like my friend are too much in their bubble and refuse to see the reality of life, sigh.

Lucio Buffalmano, John Freeman and 2 other users have reacted to this post.

#2 · September 2, 2023, 9:50 am

Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on September 2, 2023, 9:50 am
Interesting reflection and situation.
And agree with this:
Quote from Emily on September 2, 2023, 4:51 am
I think he's too naive and way too deep in the "therapy" frame and also a simp.
Yeah, it's a shame most therapy and therapists totally missed out on the power dynamics angle of both self-development work and relationships.
And some of them, like you suggest, may only make those men (but even some women) less effective (and more "simp-like").
Quote from Emily on September 2, 2023, 4:51 am
Just wondering if anybody else also observed this kind of critique from men who are clueless about dating. On one hand, probably a huge market for SU. But also, men like my friend are too much in their bubble and refuse to see the reality of life, sigh.
I don't see it personally a whole lot because people who end up on TPM are already ready to change (and because of the type of people I tend to have around me in real life).
But I think it's very common.
And I think that, paradoxically, it may be the more "well-learned" folks who fall for that, and especially those who grew up in the more egalitarian later turned woke era.
Including the more well-off folks who can afford therapists.
How to convince a man to empower himself when he refuses the knowledge
As I mentioned, I didn't have many chances to test this out in real life.
I'd be very curious to try out a few different approaches / replies and see what works best.
Of course, what's most effective also depends on the relationship with the person.
As the representative of a business with no previous personal history, and hence at high-risk of being dismissed as "trying to sell them", I'd approach it like this:
Business "convince without selling" approach
Hey look,
This is all well-referenced and tested actually, but still DEFINITELY not for everyone. (<---- frames it as scientific, which often appeals to this type of person, but says with a frame of "not trying to sell you anything here")
It's more for guys who (<----starts off almost dismissing him, which removes you from the "chasing the sales" danger zone) have room for improvement and believe they can do better, and want to do so.
And many, many guys who put in the work did manage to get better. Many a lot better. (<----sells via a third party, doesn't sell TO him )
But if one is perfectly super happy with where he's at, is already getting what he wants, and doesn't think there is even room for improvement then great for them.
Definitely don't look this way if it's you (<----persuasion power move. This is a false disqualifier because obviously that's not him :) )
We don't do sales here, so if one doesn't wanna try a novel yet now well-proven approach, we truly wish them the best with what they're already doing (<----persuasion power move: frames what he is already doing as the "same old" that delivered 0 results)
If on the other hand you wanna give it a try, this worked for many other people in similar situations and we'd be super happy if it works for you as well (<----"we're on your side and cheering for you approach", collaborative selling. so much better than "trying to persuade you" which often turns competitive).
Up to you. (<----low-pressure selling that frames it about "trying something new" and makes it all up to him)
*Click expand to see the full script
Shock and awe approach
Another approach I like:
Look man, I don't wanna sound mean.
What I DO want is to see you win and do well, and to do that, I think it's helpful for everyone of us to look at how things are.
After we do that, we can all get to work to improve that reality.
So, let me ask you this:
Do you think you're doing well so far?
Because I've seen you've dumped X times now.
And let me tell you this: women do NOT end relationships with men they like, respect, or admire -let alone men they love-.
These women did NOT respect you in any way if they dumped you.
So it's either you keep being a man that women -or people in general- don't respect all that much, OR you can shape up and show your best side.
Because you ARE a great man, I know that, you know that.
It's just about learning how to present it.
Lots of persuasion techniques here as well.

Interesting reflection and situation.

And agree with this:

Quote from Emily on September 2, 2023, 4:51 am
I think he's too naive and way too deep in the "therapy" frame and also a simp.

Yeah, it's a shame most therapy and therapists totally missed out on the power dynamics angle of both self-development work and relationships.

And some of them, like you suggest, may only make those men (but even some women) less effective (and more "simp-like").

Quote from Emily on September 2, 2023, 4:51 am
Just wondering if anybody else also observed this kind of critique from men who are clueless about dating. On one hand, probably a huge market for SU. But also, men like my friend are too much in their bubble and refuse to see the reality of life, sigh.

I don't see it personally a whole lot because people who end up on TPM are already ready to change (and because of the type of people I tend to have around me in real life).

But I think it's very common.

And I think that, paradoxically, it may be the more "well-learned" folks who fall for that, and especially those who grew up in the more egalitarian later turned woke era.
Including the more well-off folks who can afford therapists.

How to convince a man to empower himself when he refuses the knowledge

As I mentioned, I didn't have many chances to test this out in real life.

I'd be very curious to try out a few different approaches / replies and see what works best.

Of course, what's most effective also depends on the relationship with the person.

As the representative of a business with no previous personal history, and hence at high-risk of being dismissed as "trying to sell them", I'd approach it like this:

Business "convince without selling" approach

Hey look,
This is all well-referenced and tested actually, but still DEFINITELY not for everyone. (<---- frames it as scientific, which often appeals to this type of person, but says with a frame of "not trying to sell you anything here")
It's more for guys who (<----starts off almost dismissing him, which removes you from the "chasing the sales" danger zone) have room for improvement and believe they can do better, and want to do so.
And many, many guys who put in the work did manage to get better. Many a lot better. (<----sells via a third party, doesn't sell TO him )
But if one is perfectly super happy with where he's at, is already getting what he wants, and doesn't think there is even room for improvement then great for them.
Definitely don't look this way if it's you (<----persuasion power move. This is a false disqualifier because obviously that's not him :) )
We don't do sales here, so if one doesn't wanna try a novel yet now well-proven approach, we truly wish them the best with what they're already doing (<----persuasion power move: frames what he is already doing as the "same old" that delivered 0 results)
If on the other hand you wanna give it a try, this worked for many other people in similar situations and we'd be super happy if it works for you as well (<----"we're on your side and cheering for you approach", collaborative selling. so much better than "trying to persuade you" which often turns competitive).
Up to you. (<----low-pressure selling that frames it about "trying something new" and makes it all up to him)

*Click expand to see the full script

Shock and awe approach

Another approach I like:

Look man, I don't wanna sound mean.
What I DO want is to see you win and do well, and to do that, I think it's helpful for everyone of us to look at how things are.
After we do that, we can all get to work to improve that reality.
So, let me ask you this:
Do you think you're doing well so far?
Because I've seen you've dumped X times now.
And let me tell you this: women do NOT end relationships with men they like, respect, or admire -let alone men they love-.
These women did NOT respect you in any way if they dumped you.
So it's either you keep being a man that women -or people in general- don't respect all that much, OR you can shape up and show your best side.
Because you ARE a great man, I know that, you know that.
It's just about learning how to present it.

Lots of persuasion techniques here as well.

Ali Scarlett, John Freeman and 3 other users have reacted to this post.

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#3 · September 2, 2023, 10:11 am

Yeah Emily, personally, I find it quite common among young folks, specially here in a left-leaning country, Spain.

Not many folks can accept that most relationships are mostly based in power while the "loved just for being yourself" component plays such a little role in them without turning resentful and extremely cynic.

Unfortunately the left, Disney and the rest of mass media conditioned and keeps conditioning people to think this way. Some remain in the cave their whole life, while others decide to go outside of it and get what they want in life.

Those are my thoughts on the matter.

Cheers.

Lucio Buffalmano, John Freeman and 2 other users have reacted to this post.

#4 · September 5, 2023, 4:54 am

Quote from Emily on September 5, 2023, 4:54 am
Thanks for your input, Lucio and power duck. Yes, it seems quite a view through rosy glasses if it's all "woke" and "loved for who you are" (which leaves little for self-improvement, as one is already "perfect"). I'd say it's typical “cover one‘s ass” tactic in general media- drinking the koolaid and appear prosocial. One should intuitively know when the results (personal reality) don't match what is being preached.
Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on September 2, 2023, 9:50 am
Interesting reflection and situation.
And agree with this:
Quote from Emily on September 2, 2023, 4:51 am
I think he's too naive and way too deep in the "therapy" frame and also a simp.
Yeah, it's a shame most therapy and therapists totally missed out on the power dynamics angle of both self-development work and relationships.
And some of them, like you suggest, may only make those men (but even some women) less effective (and more "simp-like").
Quote from Emily on September 2, 2023, 4:51 am
Just wondering if anybody else also observed this kind of critique from men who are clueless about dating. On one hand, probably a huge market for SU. But also, men like my friend are too much in their bubble and refuse to see the reality of life, sigh.
I don't see it personally a whole lot because people who end up on TPM are already ready to change (and because of the type of people I tend to have around me in real life).
But I think it's very common.
And I think that, paradoxically, it may be the more "well-learned" folks who fall for that, and especially those who grew up in the more egalitarian later turned woke era.
Including the more well-off folks who can afford therapists.
How to convince a man to empower himself when he refuses the knowledge
As I mentioned, I didn't have many chances to test this out in real life.
I'd be very curious to try out a few different approaches / replies and see what works best.
Of course, what's most effective also depends on the relationship with the person.
As the representative of a business with no previous personal history, and hence at high-risk of being dismissed as "trying to sell them", I'd approach it like this:
Business "convince without selling" approach
Hey look,
This is all well-referenced and tested actually, but still DEFINITELY not for everyone. (<---- frames it as scientific, which often appeals to this type of person, but says with a frame of "not trying to sell you anything here")
It's more for guys who (<----starts off almost dismissing him, which removes you from the "chasing the sales" danger zone) have room for improvement and believe they can do better, and want to do so.
And many, many guys who put in the work did manage to get better. Many a lot better. (<----sells via a third party, doesn't sell TO him )
But if one is perfectly super happy with where he's at, is already getting what he wants, and doesn't think there is even room for improvement then great for them.
Definitely don't look this way if it's you (<----persuasion power move. This is a false disqualifier because obviously that's not him 🙂 )
We don't do sales here, so if one doesn't wanna try a novel yet now well-proven approach, we truly wish them the best with what they're already doing (<----persuasion power move: frames what he is already doing as the "same old" that delivered 0 results)
If on the other hand you wanna give it a try, this worked for many other people in similar situations and we'd be super happy if it works for you as well (<----"we're on your side and cheering for you approach", collaborative selling. so much better than "trying to persuade you" which often turns competitive).
Up to you. (<----low-pressure selling that frames it about "trying something new" and makes it all up to him)
*Click expand to see the full script
Shock and awe approach
Another approach I like:
Look man, I don't wanna sound mean.
What I DO want is to see you win and do well, and to do that, I think it's helpful for everyone of us to look at how things are.
After we do that, we can all get to work to improve that reality.
So, let me ask you this:
Do you think you're doing well so far?
Because I've seen you've dumped X times now.
And let me tell you this: women do NOT end relationships with men they like, respect, or admire -let alone men they love-.
These women did NOT respect you in any way if they dumped you.
So it's either you keep being a man that women -or people in general- don't respect all that much, OR you can shape up and show your best side.
Because you ARE a great man, I know that, you know that.
It's just about learning how to present it.
Lots of persuasion techniques here as well.
Really appreciate the sales approaches Lucio, I think the first is more general and has a wide hit. Actually this friend is not inflexible about self-development but he's too deep in the therapy/life coach perspective and not having a realistic grasp of things. He's quite stubborn and I would say if I use more of a salesy pitch he'd definitely vocally protest against it as some kind of “bro” move. I think in this specific case he would be much more amenable to the second approach, as “i know you are a good guy but you are really not doing well, so you gotta switch your approach”. He did ask me before about dating and girls' perspectives etc. and I wasn't as well rounded about the topic at that time. So I'll just provide suggestion when he solicits it and let him be other times - one gotta let others lead their own paths.

Thanks for your input, Lucio and power duck. Yes, it seems quite a view through rosy glasses if it's all "woke" and "loved for who you are" (which leaves little for self-improvement, as one is already "perfect"). I'd say it's typical “cover one‘s ass” tactic in general media- drinking the koolaid and appear prosocial. One should intuitively know when the results (personal reality) don't match what is being preached.

Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on September 2, 2023, 9:50 am
Interesting reflection and situation.
And agree with this:
Quote from Emily on September 2, 2023, 4:51 am
I think he's too naive and way too deep in the "therapy" frame and also a simp.
Yeah, it's a shame most therapy and therapists totally missed out on the power dynamics angle of both self-development work and relationships.
And some of them, like you suggest, may only make those men (but even some women) less effective (and more "simp-like").
Quote from Emily on September 2, 2023, 4:51 am
Just wondering if anybody else also observed this kind of critique from men who are clueless about dating. On one hand, probably a huge market for SU. But also, men like my friend are too much in their bubble and refuse to see the reality of life, sigh.
I don't see it personally a whole lot because people who end up on TPM are already ready to change (and because of the type of people I tend to have around me in real life).
But I think it's very common.
And I think that, paradoxically, it may be the more "well-learned" folks who fall for that, and especially those who grew up in the more egalitarian later turned woke era.
Including the more well-off folks who can afford therapists.
How to convince a man to empower himself when he refuses the knowledge
As I mentioned, I didn't have many chances to test this out in real life.
I'd be very curious to try out a few different approaches / replies and see what works best.
Of course, what's most effective also depends on the relationship with the person.
As the representative of a business with no previous personal history, and hence at high-risk of being dismissed as "trying to sell them", I'd approach it like this:
Business "convince without selling" approach
Hey look,
This is all well-referenced and tested actually, but still DEFINITELY not for everyone. (<---- frames it as scientific, which often appeals to this type of person, but says with a frame of "not trying to sell you anything here")
It's more for guys who (<----starts off almost dismissing him, which removes you from the "chasing the sales" danger zone) have room for improvement and believe they can do better, and want to do so.
And many, many guys who put in the work did manage to get better. Many a lot better. (<----sells via a third party, doesn't sell TO him )
But if one is perfectly super happy with where he's at, is already getting what he wants, and doesn't think there is even room for improvement then great for them.
Definitely don't look this way if it's you (<----persuasion power move. This is a false disqualifier because obviously that's not him 🙂 )
We don't do sales here, so if one doesn't wanna try a novel yet now well-proven approach, we truly wish them the best with what they're already doing (<----persuasion power move: frames what he is already doing as the "same old" that delivered 0 results)
If on the other hand you wanna give it a try, this worked for many other people in similar situations and we'd be super happy if it works for you as well (<----"we're on your side and cheering for you approach", collaborative selling. so much better than "trying to persuade you" which often turns competitive).
Up to you. (<----low-pressure selling that frames it about "trying something new" and makes it all up to him)
*Click expand to see the full script
Shock and awe approach
Another approach I like:
Look man, I don't wanna sound mean.
What I DO want is to see you win and do well, and to do that, I think it's helpful for everyone of us to look at how things are.
After we do that, we can all get to work to improve that reality.
So, let me ask you this:
Do you think you're doing well so far?
Because I've seen you've dumped X times now.
And let me tell you this: women do NOT end relationships with men they like, respect, or admire -let alone men they love-.
These women did NOT respect you in any way if they dumped you.
So it's either you keep being a man that women -or people in general- don't respect all that much, OR you can shape up and show your best side.
Because you ARE a great man, I know that, you know that.
It's just about learning how to present it.
Lots of persuasion techniques here as well.

Really appreciate the sales approaches Lucio, I think the first is more general and has a wide hit. Actually this friend is not inflexible about self-development but he's too deep in the therapy/life coach perspective and not having a realistic grasp of things. He's quite stubborn and I would say if I use more of a salesy pitch he'd definitely vocally protest against it as some kind of “bro” move. I think in this specific case he would be much more amenable to the second approach, as “i know you are a good guy but you are really not doing well, so you gotta switch your approach”. He did ask me before about dating and girls' perspectives etc. and I wasn't as well rounded about the topic at that time. So I'll just provide suggestion when he solicits it and let him be other times - one gotta let others lead their own paths.

Lucio Buffalmano, Jack and Power Duck have reacted to this post.