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From combative to collaborative frame with friend.
Cheers guys.
Today I had a WhatsApp talk with a female friend, since the conv was getting combative I tried to set a collaborative frame although I felt as if I was sucking up to her:
.....
Her: you've made me feel wrong, I'm going to my house already. (I previously told her that I was studying instead of partying so she's joking here)
P.D: run
Her: what a psychologist you are
P.D: come on, tomorrow you wake up at 8 again.
P.D responding to the psychologist part: if you want therapy you have to pay.
Her: no you'll manipulate me ( I told her long ago that I study manipulation)
P.D: I manipulate those who deserve it, I defend those who are good people. It's up to you to decide who of those two you are.
Her: what a warning.
Here I see that I don't like the overall mood and dynamic so I seek to change it:
P.D: anyway leaving jokes aside I think you're a cool girl, haven't had to say anything to you so you stop being a nuisance like to other people in class yet.
P.D: and when I say other people I mean a lot of them so consider that a compliment.
Thinking about it, it may have come across as too intense, however if it were me I would've still responded well to that even if it felt weird. Edit: it's a bit of a judge power move too, for the most part I belive its value adding.
Heres how she responded though:
Her: how nice.
Her: I'm going to sleep after this message.
When I wrote her that I was doubting it since I risked being one upped, maybe it's something that collaborative frames have, when you try to set collaborative frames with certain individuals they may use them to one up you.
I think that a less intense way of setting a collaborative frame could be:
P.D: hahaha. Anyways I hope you had a blast today........
Changing the frame and saying something positive. I still think it highly depends on the other person too.
Do you think I could've done something better/different ? I appreciate the help.
Merry Christmas btw!!
P.S:
I didn't appreciate her response a bit, too gamey.
haven't had to say anything to you so you stop being a nuisance like to other people in class yet.
This part in particular feels weird to me, I kind of imply that she's being a nuisance but not as much as others. But I think she understood it correctly: "since she's never been a nuisance I haven't had to tell anything to her"
Hi Power Duck,
let me preface this by stating that I also went through a similar phase in my learning.
That said, my feeling is that the whole tone of the conversation is too heavily slanted toward "arrogant power-taking dominance".
And I also see too much verbalizing of "how you are" (which comes across as a bit bragging, and reveals you may not really be that way).
To me, it's not a matter of tweaking the specific responses, but of adopting a different mindset: one of more secure, but more low-key, "personal assuredness".
Having said that, I also believe this is an unavoidable phase through which many men have to go before settling on a lower-key demeanor.
I for sure went through a similar phase.
The reason why, IMO, you want to settle on a lower-key assuredness is: arrogance shows some underlying insecurity. Only an insecure person would use overtly dominant sentences and demeanors. And women know this unconsiously.
In contrast, a truly secure person would behave differently. For example, never tell a woman you "manipulate bad people, and defend good people": you just show how you are in actions.
One example to clarify all this, that helped me much when I was learning the same thing:
- insecure guy calls a woman to propose a date. Woman says no. Insecure guy verbalizes "Oh I know, I understand nobody would date me, I had to try".
- arrogant guy calls a woman to propose a date. Woman says no. Arrogant guy responds "This is your only chance. If you say no, I'll never call you again".
- secure guy calls a woman to propose a date. Woman says no. Secure guy says "Ok", chats a bit more, and says goodbye. He calls her in one week and proposes a date. Woman says no. Secure guy says "Ok", chats a bit more, and says goodbye. Then he never calls her again, and goes on with his life.
Cheers Bel.
Thanks for the response.
Yeah, thinking about it, it gives the same feeling to me. I intended it to change the frame from "You manipulate" to "I only manipulate bad people" however it still does come across as arrogant.
I switch dominance styles depending on my mood, but I think I may have to drop this one, at least with the people with whom I intend to have higher quality relationships.
About the lower key assuredness, I agree, I've seen more social effectiveness when I was more relaxed and low key. I've experienced that reaching that state does probably depend on my testosterone levels and how much I exercise, so I might have to change certain habits.
Regardless of habits, I'll bear this in mind in order to not set combative frames in the first place.
Hey man,
I agree with Bel. I would also introspect about relationships with women and mother (expectations, feelings, etc.).
All the best!
Cheers man.
Thinking about it, an introspection about social relationships would do me good. I guess I'm a bit burned by learning more about the role that instincts play in socialisation.
After reading some of your posts, I can say that this is part of the process and something that may be indeed real, not my imagination. Some of the things you say do resonate with my thouhgts.
However to exit the abyss after going deeper into it, I must be aware of not becoming a monster first, even if being good seems to not be worth it I must still find a way. Otherwise I'll become the very thing I despise.
Speaking is very easy for sure, I often wonder why I started all this self improvement thing, I guess it's better to move towards an unreachable place rather than to not move at all.
Thanks for the response btw.
Yeah, we're in very different situations. This current step is for me only and for now. Know thyself. That being said, I'm honoured if I inspired you.
Straight talk: in my previous post I self-censored because I was not sure how you were going to take it. I warmly recommend a therapist. I saw one and I'm seeing one. It's a great self-development tool.
Yes, I'm aware of that. We are at completely different stages of life, there are things from your posts whose meaning I may miss. And that's what makes the matter more interesting, the fact that I'm finding the same messages coming from different individuals, be it achievers, internet sources or people I see in my everyday life.
In regards to the therapist I appreciate the advice, used to see one, eventually stopped since I solved most of my issues and I didn't like his approach to dealing with people. Depending on how things go I may consider looking for a new one.
P.S:
Yeah, we're in very different situations. This current step is for me only and for now. Know thyself.
I could be imagining things but this part from your post sounded weird for me. Maybe I didn't use the best wording and you said that to correct a negative frame I set by accident. Anyways, just wanted to say that to prevent any possible misunderstandings, feel free to comment about it if you feel like it, and apologies if that were the case.
Thanks for your answer.
What I meant is not about levels or stages in life. I’m not talking about that. I’m talking about moments and states of mind. At certain moments I must think positively and see the beauty around me. At other times I have to go full beast mode. What I meant is that the current moment and state of mind for me might not fit your state of mind and moment for you right now.
I think we aren't understanding each other. Anyways since there seems to be no ill feelings in both parts and it isn't that big of a thing I think it's better to leave it at that.
Alright I don’t think I understood the misunderstanding. My apologies if I overstepped or mispoke. Sincere thoughts, John.
