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Gaslighting+fake value adding behaviour. Manipulation.

#1 · August 4, 2023, 12:25 am

Some time ago I was victim of gaslighting. However as well as gaslighting me into believing I had social and mental problems while breaking rapport, the manipulators did an interesting thing. They promised giving me value after the argument and after gaslighting me.

Enter: Gaslighting for naive growth mindset folks.

It consists in:

Gaslighting.
Creating a covert frame consisting that other people/groups wouldn't stand the target and abandon him due to his issues, but the manipulators won't (because theyre really good people of course).
Promising the target help to solve the "problem" as well as value adding behaviour.

1st point is clear, it makes the target doubt his mental sanity, decreases self esteem and puts the manipulator in the judge position. 2nd increases the target social debt as well as makes the manipulator look magnanimous and take the judge position, plus it has the potential of isolating the target as other individuals "won't stand his weirdness".

3rd is the cherry on top of the cake:

If the target has a growth mindset (as well as being naive, otherwise there won't probably be any manipulation) and cares about the relationship , he will be open to constructive criticism and open to improve. The "feedback" will make him think that the manipulators are high-quality individuals that will help him become a better guy.
The promise of adding value (alongside with 2) will make the target spend more effort to maintain the manipulators as friends.
Rebuilds rapport, thus not souring the relationship. Now the argument wasn't a heated discussion but rather a "constructive conversation that led to improvement of the friendship"

The results of this can be emotional dependence, social isolation, low self esteem, low power behaviour, doubting mental sanity, etc.

Of course feel free to correct me or add any idea if you want :) .

Cheers

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#2 · August 4, 2023, 12:45 am

This kind of gaslighting can occur:

Whenever you do something the manipulator doesn't like.
If the manipulator wants to over-power you, and (possibly) knows you will accept criticism.

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#3 · August 4, 2023, 2:29 am

Quote from B on August 4, 2023, 2:29 am
Thank you for sharing Power Duck,
it’s very interesting.
And your description is spot on, and helps me connect the dots.
I see lots of parallels with how cults operate, in that they tend to not only gaslight victims but also to promise fake “help” (which translates into further exploitation and abuse).
In general, I agree that manipulators not only tend to abuse and to isolate, but also to encourage their mark to go to them for emotional comfort and consolation.
That way they can:
- further gaslight the mark; and more importantly
- keep being informed of any changes in the mark’s mindset and behavior, to be able to adapt their tactics and manipulations to the ever-evolving context.
In essence, the manipulated person is induced to confide and always tell the truth of his or her personal situation to the manipulator.
This is done deliberately, and your explanation of it is very good and helpful: one of the possible tactics is precisely to fake adding value to the mark’s situation, by providing “perspective and advice” or even “help to solve the personal issue”.
Of course, the manipulator omits the part where his perspective is not “objective”, but merely self-serving to the manipulator’s manipulation, and thus contrary to the personal interests of the mark.
And as you also point out, most often the mark doesn’t have any issue at all on which he needs “advice”. It’s all fabricated out of gaslighting.
Usually, the move tends to generate in the mark a tendency to over share personal details and information not only to the manipulator, but to everyone. This is probably because the mark tends to internalize a thinking pattern (encouraged by the manipulator) where “advice is needed to solve the issue”.
In other words, the mark tends to go around over sharing personal details and asking advice. This is usually noticed by other manipulators, and also by other normal people. The result is that other manipulators take advantage of it, and normal people find it “strange” and get distance.
The move can also be done by taking advantage of the mark requesting advice.
Or even by taking advantage of someone else being in the process of providing advice to the mark.
In other words, the most manipulative people can latch onto a situation or conversation developing between other people and twist the situation as if the mark was having a “deeper issue” that needs to be addressed.
Some very disturbed personalities, after gaslighting the mark, go even as far to do psychotherapy on the mark without having any qualification. I have seen this happen both in the life of people I know, and in the series “Stolen Youth - The Sarah Lawrence Cult”, which I highly recommend seeing.
I am curious to know what was said specifically, if you can share it.

Thank you for sharing Power Duck,

it’s very interesting.

And your description is spot on, and helps me connect the dots.

I see lots of parallels with how cults operate, in that they tend to not only gaslight victims but also to promise fake “help” (which translates into further exploitation and abuse).

In general, I agree that manipulators not only tend to abuse and to isolate, but also to encourage their mark to go to them for emotional comfort and consolation.

That way they can:

- further gaslight the mark; and more importantly

- keep being informed of any changes in the mark’s mindset and behavior, to be able to adapt their tactics and manipulations to the ever-evolving context.

In essence, the manipulated person is induced to confide and always tell the truth of his or her personal situation to the manipulator.

This is done deliberately, and your explanation of it is very good and helpful: one of the possible tactics is precisely to fake adding value to the mark’s situation, by providing “perspective and advice” or even “help to solve the personal issue”.

Of course, the manipulator omits the part where his perspective is not “objective”, but merely self-serving to the manipulator’s manipulation, and thus contrary to the personal interests of the mark.

And as you also point out, most often the mark doesn’t have any issue at all on which he needs “advice”. It’s all fabricated out of gaslighting.

Usually, the move tends to generate in the mark a tendency to over share personal details and information not only to the manipulator, but to everyone. This is probably because the mark tends to internalize a thinking pattern (encouraged by the manipulator) where “advice is needed to solve the issue”.

In other words, the mark tends to go around over sharing personal details and asking advice. This is usually noticed by other manipulators, and also by other normal people. The result is that other manipulators take advantage of it, and normal people find it “strange” and get distance.

The move can also be done by taking advantage of the mark requesting advice.

Or even by taking advantage of someone else being in the process of providing advice to the mark.

In other words, the most manipulative people can latch onto a situation or conversation developing between other people and twist the situation as if the mark was having a “deeper issue” that needs to be addressed.

Some very disturbed personalities, after gaslighting the mark, go even as far to do psychotherapy on the mark without having any qualification. I have seen this happen both in the life of people I know, and in the series “Stolen Youth - The Sarah Lawrence Cult”, which I highly recommend seeing.

I am curious to know what was said specifically, if you can share it.

Lucio Buffalmano, John Freeman and 2 other users have reacted to this post.

#4 · August 4, 2023, 9:53 am

Yes, +1, I think it's a very relevant dynamic.

And if you actually have a real-life example you can share (ie.: who did it / in which situation), may be even more helpful.

We mention the "fake growth mindset" in the article/lesson on gaslighting, but this is one added aspect of it (great catch and thank you for sharing BTW. Added it as a Tweet/note for future PU edits, and if we end up adding it to PU, I'll reference here too).

This reinforces a notion we already shared here at TPM but that we never made it into a general rule.

You know made me further reflect on it, and I think this may be a general rule:

A growth mindset (or a learner attitude) sets you up for easy manipulation and disempowerment unless it's coupled with power awareness and skills

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#5 · August 4, 2023, 12:15 pm

Quote from Power Duck on August 4, 2023, 12:15 pm
Quote from Bel on August 4, 2023, 2:29 am
Thank you for sharing Power Duck,
it’s very interesting.
And your description is spot on, and helps me connect the dots.
I see lots of parallels with how cults operate, in that they tend to not only gaslight victims but also to promise fake “help” (which translates into further exploitation and abuse).
In general, I agree that manipulators not only tend to abuse and to isolate, but also to encourage their mark to go to them for emotional comfort and consolation.
That way they can:
- further gaslight the mark; and more importantly
- keep being informed of any changes in the mark’s mindset and behavior, to be able to adapt their tactics and manipulations to the ever-evolving context.
In essence, the manipulated person is induced to confide and always tell the truth of his or her personal situation to the manipulator.
This is done deliberately, and your explanation of it is very good and helpful: one of the possible tactics is precisely to fake adding value to the mark’s situation, by providing “perspective and advice” or even “help to solve the personal issue”.
Of course, the manipulator omits the part where his perspective is not “objective”, but merely self-serving to the manipulator’s manipulation, and thus contrary to the personal interests of the mark.
And as you also point out, most often the mark doesn’t have any issue at all on which he needs “advice”. It’s all fabricated out of gaslighting.
Usually, the move tends to generate in the mark a tendency to over share personal details and information not only to the manipulator, but to everyone. This is probably because the mark tends to internalize a thinking pattern (encouraged by the manipulator) where “advice is needed to solve the issue”.
In other words, the mark tends to go around over sharing personal details and asking advice. This is usually noticed by other manipulators, and also by other normal people. The result is that other manipulators take advantage of it, and normal people find it “strange” and get distance.
The move can also be done by taking advantage of the mark requesting advice.
Or even by taking advantage of someone else being in the process of providing advice to the mark.
In other words, the most manipulative people can latch onto a situation or conversation developing between other people and twist the situation as if the mark was having a “deeper issue” that needs to be addressed.
Some very disturbed personalities, after gaslighting the mark, go even as far to do psychotherapy on the mark without having any qualification. I have seen this happen both in the life of people I know, and in the series “Stolen Youth - The Sarah Lawrence Cult”, which I highly recommend seeing.
I am curious to know what was said specifically, if you can share it.
Thanks for the response and for the compliment Bel. I fully agree about the mark oversharing information because he thinks that there's a problem to be solved, in fact that's something I did a time or two.
You made me remember another reason for the mark oversharing, that is because he fears that other people won't understanding his "problem and willingness to change" and think that he's weird, this will most likely cause the target to behave awkwardly and become socially anxious as the mark has constant fear of what others may think of him, after all the manipulators made him believe others could/would/will abandon him.
About the rest I find it really interesting Since I realized I was gaslighted and started understanding how f up some people can be, I've developed an interest for dark triads as well as the techniques and thought patterns that manipulators have.
I don't know if there's any, but I believe an article about how manipulators think would be really useful and interesting. Staring at the abyss can be a traumatizing experience or life changing.
Cheers.
P.S:
Sure, I will share the whole situation with details. I'll do it tonight, as I'm slow writing and have more time then.

Quote from Bel on August 4, 2023, 2:29 am
Thank you for sharing Power Duck,
it’s very interesting.
And your description is spot on, and helps me connect the dots.
I see lots of parallels with how cults operate, in that they tend to not only gaslight victims but also to promise fake “help” (which translates into further exploitation and abuse).
In general, I agree that manipulators not only tend to abuse and to isolate, but also to encourage their mark to go to them for emotional comfort and consolation.
That way they can:
- further gaslight the mark; and more importantly
- keep being informed of any changes in the mark’s mindset and behavior, to be able to adapt their tactics and manipulations to the ever-evolving context.
In essence, the manipulated person is induced to confide and always tell the truth of his or her personal situation to the manipulator.
This is done deliberately, and your explanation of it is very good and helpful: one of the possible tactics is precisely to fake adding value to the mark’s situation, by providing “perspective and advice” or even “help to solve the personal issue”.
Of course, the manipulator omits the part where his perspective is not “objective”, but merely self-serving to the manipulator’s manipulation, and thus contrary to the personal interests of the mark.
And as you also point out, most often the mark doesn’t have any issue at all on which he needs “advice”. It’s all fabricated out of gaslighting.
Usually, the move tends to generate in the mark a tendency to over share personal details and information not only to the manipulator, but to everyone. This is probably because the mark tends to internalize a thinking pattern (encouraged by the manipulator) where “advice is needed to solve the issue”.
In other words, the mark tends to go around over sharing personal details and asking advice. This is usually noticed by other manipulators, and also by other normal people. The result is that other manipulators take advantage of it, and normal people find it “strange” and get distance.
The move can also be done by taking advantage of the mark requesting advice.
Or even by taking advantage of someone else being in the process of providing advice to the mark.
In other words, the most manipulative people can latch onto a situation or conversation developing between other people and twist the situation as if the mark was having a “deeper issue” that needs to be addressed.
Some very disturbed personalities, after gaslighting the mark, go even as far to do psychotherapy on the mark without having any qualification. I have seen this happen both in the life of people I know, and in the series “Stolen Youth - The Sarah Lawrence Cult”, which I highly recommend seeing.
I am curious to know what was said specifically, if you can share it.

Thanks for the response and for the compliment Bel. I fully agree about the mark oversharing information because he thinks that there's a problem to be solved, in fact that's something I did a time or two.

You made me remember another reason for the mark oversharing, that is because he fears that other people won't understanding his "problem and willingness to change" and think that he's weird, this will most likely cause the target to behave awkwardly and become socially anxious as the mark has constant fear of what others may think of him, after all the manipulators made him believe others could/would/will abandon him.

About the rest I find it really interesting Since I realized I was gaslighted and started understanding how f up some people can be, I've developed an interest for dark triads as well as the techniques and thought patterns that manipulators have.

I don't know if there's any, but I believe an article about how manipulators think would be really useful and interesting. Staring at the abyss can be a traumatizing experience or life changing.

Cheers.

P.S:

Sure, I will share the whole situation with details. I'll do it tonight, as I'm slow writing and have more time then.

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#6 · August 4, 2023, 12:38 pm

Quote from Power Duck on August 4, 2023, 12:38 pm
Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on August 4, 2023, 9:53 am
Yes, +1, I think it's a very relevant dynamic.
And if you actually have a real-life example you can share (ie.: who did it / in which situation), may be even more helpful.
We mention the "fake growth mindset" in the article/lesson on gaslighting, but this is one added aspect of it (great catch and thank you for sharing BTW. Added it as a Tweet/note for future PU edits, and if we end up adding it to PU, I'll reference here too).
This reinforces a notion we already shared here at TPM but that we never made it into a general rule.
You know made me further reflect on it, and I think this may be a general rule:
A growth mindset (or a learner attitude) sets you up for easy manipulation and disempowerment unless it's coupled with power awareness and skills
Thanks for the response and the compliment Lucio.
A growth mindset (or a learner attitude) sets you up for easy manipulation and disempowerment unless it's coupled with power awareness and skills
100%. I find this situation funny as I had this "thought pattern" some time ago too:
If I want to improve and change then I should ask the people around me for feedback.
An example would be:
"Hey, do you think there's something I could improve about myself?" There's no need for a complicated situation to occur to ask this, it's simply that you think other people will give you good feedback and help you improve.
Also another dangerous behaviour is taking any criticism as value adding feedback as I think is mentioned in the growth mindset section.
However asking for feedback like that is indeed a death sentence.
Another trap about the growth mindset paired with naivete, is mistaking ego with the feel for power moves. I find this really really interesting.
This can be used to manipulate too, specially if the target knows a thing or two about psychology.
The thing is that I've found that the feeling we get when our ego is threatened and the feel for power moves are really similar, although differences can be spotted if one pays attention.
What's the problem then?: The self help trap of "ego is bad". Pair that with a bit of naivete and you get a completely powerless person that will take any criticism and attack framed as help and sometimes even when it isn't framed as help, as valuable information. Not only that but will believe that power moves are ego issues he will have to solve.
Sure I'll share how the gaslighting happened when I find some more rest time. I made a post about it some time ago but there's little details as I summed it up.
Cheers.
P.S:
Most of the things I talked are of course things I experienced myself. Can't imagine what would've been of me if I hadn't found TPM.

Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on August 4, 2023, 9:53 am
Yes, +1, I think it's a very relevant dynamic.
And if you actually have a real-life example you can share (ie.: who did it / in which situation), may be even more helpful.
We mention the "fake growth mindset" in the article/lesson on gaslighting, but this is one added aspect of it (great catch and thank you for sharing BTW. Added it as a Tweet/note for future PU edits, and if we end up adding it to PU, I'll reference here too).
This reinforces a notion we already shared here at TPM but that we never made it into a general rule.
You know made me further reflect on it, and I think this may be a general rule:
A growth mindset (or a learner attitude) sets you up for easy manipulation and disempowerment unless it's coupled with power awareness and skills

Thanks for the response and the compliment Lucio.

A growth mindset (or a learner attitude) sets you up for easy manipulation and disempowerment unless it's coupled with power awareness and skills

100%. I find this situation funny as I had this "thought pattern" some time ago too:

If I want to improve and change then I should ask the people around me for feedback.

An example would be:

"Hey, do you think there's something I could improve about myself?" There's no need for a complicated situation to occur to ask this, it's simply that you think other people will give you good feedback and help you improve.

Also another dangerous behaviour is taking any criticism as value adding feedback as I think is mentioned in the growth mindset section.

However asking for feedback like that is indeed a death sentence.

Another trap about the growth mindset paired with naivete, is mistaking ego with the feel for power moves. I find this really really interesting.

This can be used to manipulate too, specially if the target knows a thing or two about psychology.

The thing is that I've found that the feeling we get when our ego is threatened and the feel for power moves are really similar, although differences can be spotted if one pays attention.

What's the problem then?: The self help trap of "ego is bad". Pair that with a bit of naivete and you get a completely powerless person that will take any criticism and attack framed as help and sometimes even when it isn't framed as help, as valuable information. Not only that but will believe that power moves are ego issues he will have to solve.

Sure I'll share how the gaslighting happened when I find some more rest time. I made a post about it some time ago but there's little details as I summed it up.

Cheers.

P.S:

Most of the things I talked are of course things I experienced myself. Can't imagine what would've been of me if I hadn't found TPM.

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#7 · August 4, 2023, 1:29 pm

Quote from B on August 4, 2023, 1:29 pm
OFF TOPIC
Quote from Power Duck on August 4, 2023, 12:15 pm
I don't know if there's any, but I believe an article about how manipulators think would be really useful and interesting. Staring at the abyss can be a traumatizing experience or life changing.
Some pointers on this based on my experience (may not reflect all truly manipulative personalities):
- hating everyone
- thought patterns of life as a chess game (“he said this. What can I now say to manipulate him into believing he is the problem and making him do as I say and break his will for good”)
- in some cases, constant homicidal thoughts
- inability to see win/win. Only acceptable possibility is win/lose, win/win is seen as a loss
- always having to resist urges to harm, destroy, hurt. These are usually deferred until a “good opening” appears
- always covering manipulation under a veneer of gaslighting and “good intentions”
-never, ever, ever admitting anything. Any attempt by the mark at obtaining admissions is seen as an opportunity to further manipulate and recover the higher position by further gaslighting. The ultimate tool is faking that “yes I was manipulative but it was in the past, now I changed”
- inability to change
- inability to see even the closest people as people. They are all hated
- having to constantly fake being loving and forgiving and good. But it is a mask
- if you saw the manipulator while he doesn’t realize you see him, you would see a nasty, evil face - ie NOT the usual mask
- always blaming everyone else for everything bad, and taking credit for everything good
- resenting people who play into his machinations, or give advice. Later punishing them in underhanded ways while making sure the link between the “offense” and the “punishment” is hidden
- thinking everyone is playing the same game, but that the manipulator is the best one
- thinking life consists in controlling others. The more the manipulator is able to manipulate, the more alive he or she feels
- using all people as pawns, including the closest ones
- inability to bond emotionally with anyone, but faking bonding (ie repeating “I love you” over and over and over while it is totally fake)
END OFF TOPIC

OFF TOPIC

Quote from Power Duck on August 4, 2023, 12:15 pm
I don't know if there's any, but I believe an article about how manipulators think would be really useful and interesting. Staring at the abyss can be a traumatizing experience or life changing.

Some pointers on this based on my experience (may not reflect all truly manipulative personalities):

- hating everyone

- thought patterns of life as a chess game (“he said this. What can I now say to manipulate him into believing he is the problem and making him do as I say and break his will for good”)

- in some cases, constant homicidal thoughts

- inability to see win/win. Only acceptable possibility is win/lose, win/win is seen as a loss

- always having to resist urges to harm, destroy, hurt. These are usually deferred until a “good opening” appears

- always covering manipulation under a veneer of gaslighting and “good intentions”

-never, ever, ever admitting anything. Any attempt by the mark at obtaining admissions is seen as an opportunity to further manipulate and recover the higher position by further gaslighting. The ultimate tool is faking that “yes I was manipulative but it was in the past, now I changed”

- inability to change

- inability to see even the closest people as people. They are all hated

- having to constantly fake being loving and forgiving and good. But it is a mask

- if you saw the manipulator while he doesn’t realize you see him, you would see a nasty, evil face - ie NOT the usual mask

- always blaming everyone else for everything bad, and taking credit for everything good

- resenting people who play into his machinations, or give advice. Later punishing them in underhanded ways while making sure the link between the “offense” and the “punishment” is hidden

- thinking everyone is playing the same game, but that the manipulator is the best one

- thinking life consists in controlling others. The more the manipulator is able to manipulate, the more alive he or she feels

- using all people as pawns, including the closest ones

- inability to bond emotionally with anyone, but faking bonding (ie repeating “I love you” over and over and over while it is totally fake)

END OFF TOPIC

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#8 · August 4, 2023, 8:48 pm

Quote from Power Duck on August 4, 2023, 12:38 pm
Another trap about the growth mindset paired with naivete, is mistaking ego with the feel for power moves. I find this really really interesting.
This can be used to manipulate too, specially if the target knows a thing or two about psychology.
The thing is that I've found that the feeling we get when our ego is threatened and the feel for power moves are really similar, although differences can be spotted if one pays attention.
What's the problem then?: The self help trap of "ego is bad". Pair that with a bit of naivete and you get a completely powerless person that will take any criticism and attack framed as help and sometimes even when it isn't framed as help, as valuable information. Not only that but will believe that power moves are ego issues he will have to solve.

Dropping gold in this thread, Power Duck! :)

Yes, great call, and quite similar.

A drive to "get rid of the ego" or external calls to "not take it so personally" can manipulation and gaslighting tools.

OFF-TOPIC

Edit: on "how manipulators think"

If anyone wants to continue the topic of "how manipulators think", feel free to open a new thread since it's a very interesting as well as very different topic.

But one thing I'd take care not to forget: manipulators also think like normal people do because manipulation is common and widespread.

Manipulation is also on a spectrum and zero manipulation in any relationship is both uncommon, and also ineffective.

So better to specify we're referring to chronic manipulation, over-manipulation, extreme win-lose, etc. etc.

OFF-TOPIC

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#9 · August 4, 2023, 9:17 pm

Great insight, Power Duck, thanks!

I would call it the: "I ('m the only who) know what's good for you" manipulation

I think the frame is: "I understand you and they don't. I want the best for you and they don't. "I know what's best for you better than you know it yourself)."

"I understand you and they don't. I want the best for you and they don't."

Isolation from 3rd parties.

"I know what's best for you better than you know it yourself"

Gaslighting leading to the mark doubting of oneself.

It reminds of what Bill Burr said about his wife:

Yeah, I love my wife to death. I love everything about being f*cking married, but I’ll tell you this right now, we do fight a lot. We do argue all the time. If I’ve learned anything in five years of being married, it is we’re always working on me. You know? [chuckles] Evidently, my wife is this completed work under museum glass that is to be admired and studied, like, “Hmm, how did she do that?” And I’m like one of these… You know those buildings that just has scaffolding around it for, like, six straight years, and you’re like, “Are they ever gonna finish that thing? Is that some sort of insurance job? Jesus Christ, what a piece of sh!t! They should just tear it down and start over again.”

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#10 · August 4, 2023, 10:20 pm

Quote from Power Duck on August 4, 2023, 10:20 pm
Quote from John Freeman on August 4, 2023, 9:17 pm
Great insight, Power Duck, thanks!
I would call it the: "I ('m the only who) know what's good for you" manipulation
I think the frame is: "I understand you and they don't. I want the best for you and they don't. "I know what's best for you better than you know it yourself)."
"I understand you and they don't. I want the best for you and they don't."
Isolation from 3rd parties.
"I know what's best for you better than you know it yourself"
Gaslighting leading to the mark doubting of oneself.
It reminds of what Bill Burr said about his wife:
Yeah, I love my wife to death. I love everything about being f*cking married, but I’ll tell you this right now, we do fight a lot. We do argue all the time. If I’ve learned anything in five years of being married, it is we’re always working on me. You know? [chuckles] Evidently, my wife is this completed work under museum glass that is to be admired and studied, like, “Hmm, how did she do that?” And I’m like one of these… You know those buildings that just has scaffolding around it for, like, six straight years, and you’re like, “Are they ever gonna finish that thing? Is that some sort of insurance job? Jesus Christ, what a piece of sh!t! They should just tear it down and start over again.”
Thanks for the response and for the compliment John.
I would call it the: "I ('m the only who) know what's good for you" manipulation
I think the frame is: "I understand you and they don't. I want the best for you and they don't. "I know what's best for you better than you know it yourself)."
Now that I think about it that covert frame makes sense, it's like the manipulator adopting the "parent role" of: "I'll accept you even though you're flawed, plus I know better than you what's best for you"
Isolation from 3rd parties.
That made me think that it could be triangulation too, as the manipulator uses 3rd parties to achieve his goal.
The Bill Burr example is spot on, he's "imperfect" and "needs" the wife to fix him. Just as the target "needs" the manipulator to "fix" him.
Cheers.

Quote from John Freeman on August 4, 2023, 9:17 pm
Great insight, Power Duck, thanks!
I would call it the: "I ('m the only who) know what's good for you" manipulation
I think the frame is: "I understand you and they don't. I want the best for you and they don't. "I know what's best for you better than you know it yourself)."
"I understand you and they don't. I want the best for you and they don't."
Isolation from 3rd parties.
"I know what's best for you better than you know it yourself"
Gaslighting leading to the mark doubting of oneself.
It reminds of what Bill Burr said about his wife:
Yeah, I love my wife to death. I love everything about being f*cking married, but I’ll tell you this right now, we do fight a lot. We do argue all the time. If I’ve learned anything in five years of being married, it is we’re always working on me. You know? [chuckles] Evidently, my wife is this completed work under museum glass that is to be admired and studied, like, “Hmm, how did she do that?” And I’m like one of these… You know those buildings that just has scaffolding around it for, like, six straight years, and you’re like, “Are they ever gonna finish that thing? Is that some sort of insurance job? Jesus Christ, what a piece of sh!t! They should just tear it down and start over again.”

Thanks for the response and for the compliment John.

I would call it the: "I ('m the only who) know what's good for you" manipulation
I think the frame is: "I understand you and they don't. I want the best for you and they don't. "I know what's best for you better than you know it yourself)."

Now that I think about it that covert frame makes sense, it's like the manipulator adopting the "parent role" of: "I'll accept you even though you're flawed, plus I know better than you what's best for you"

Isolation from 3rd parties.

That made me think that it could be triangulation too, as the manipulator uses 3rd parties to achieve his goal.

The Bill Burr example is spot on, he's "imperfect" and "needs" the wife to fix him. Just as the target "needs" the manipulator to "fix" him.

Cheers.

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