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Getting short-circuited by subordinates (nurses)

#1 · September 25, 2022, 6:55 pm

Quote from John Freeman on September 25, 2022, 6:55 pm
Hello everyone,
Yesterday I was working at the paediatric emergency deparment. So guess what I have? Yes! Power moves stories from nasty game players nurses.
The first one is here more as sharing what I learned. The second one I'm happy to have feed-back on.
I talked recently with a nice professional nurse whom I work with and that I consider a "work friend". Her opinion on this team: they are "carrions" ("charognes" in French, which expression means: nasty, aggressive, dark and mean, more or less). So I was happy to hear that other nurses had the same experience as I did. She told me about the bullying/mobbing and the negative team dynamics that I also observed.
The (child) psychiatric nurse is not coming
We were waiting for the child psychiatric nurse to evaluate a child. She came then left so I went to see another child. I come out of the room after the consult and nurses tell me: "The mother was getting agitated and angry". I say: "gotta come and get me", surprised. They say: "now she's in". So I said: "good".
Analysis
The power move is the following: I'm in charge of the patient. So I must know what is happening. They kept me in the dark while sending the psychiatric nurse. So they did manage the situation and I could have congratulated them for this. So I could be framed as "too controlling". However, I must know there is a problem so I can manage it. If I'm not available, so be it. But I could have interrupted the non-urgent consult and go solve the problem. That's what they're supposed to do: if there's an issue, warn the physician in charge. So this was the power move element. They got the work done but in a way that was bypassing me. So I did not confront them as they got the job done still.
2. My boss does the evaluation and put the orders in instead of me.
So this one is nastier. I evaluated a patient first, then the attending physician wanted to evaluate him with me. He taught me a small variation on what I did but overall was very satisfied with my job.
He tells me to put the orders in so he can be hospitalised (how many times per day should the nurses check the vitals, medications, etc.). I was to evaluate him again at 10pm. So I go see another patient. When I go out at 9:55pm, my supervisor told me: "I put in the orders" as if I had not done my job. The truth is there was still plenty of time to do it.
I go see the patient and there is a male nurse (one of the huge game players I did not know until then). He's giving a lot of explanations to the grand mother. He loves to play the expert and take the teacher role. Not in the sense that it is always necessary, but in the sense that he likes to show off what he knows since he has 15 years of experience or so. He says to me: "we evaluated him with your supervisor" (again implying I did not do my job). I self-power protected: "you did well" taking back the leadership. I did not feel bad as at least things were moving forward.
It's when I came out that I realised that he went straight to my supervisor to evaluate the patient BEFORE 10PM. So he short-circuited me before I could do my job. After the evaluation at 10 PM, of course I would have put the orders in. So I call this game: "who did not do what" (could be in dictionary or PU as seen fit), where people are looking for things you forget or did not do yet (even if there was some time left) to point out that you did not do your job.
So I told my boss that it was due at 10 PM my evaluation and at this moment my alarm rings (showing that I would have gone there). He says to me: "maybe the nurse was getting bored" to turn it into a joke. But he was feeling uneasy as he knew it was a power move.
Side note: he's quite a social climber himself. During the morning meeting where the whole team is there and his supervisors (executive physicians) are there as well. What he does is social climb on his absent peers: "X thought this and it's obviously not that, hahaha". Making light fun or implying that what they did was stupid, incompetent or inadequate. So he knows the game as a practitioner himself. This was not out of naivety.
To summarise: the nurse short-circuited me to see my boss and came as an expert to see the parents. Net result: he made me look as if I did not do my job properly towards my supervisor.
Analysis
The reason why the nurse did that: we discussed here at length all ready: feeling powerful, insecurity, ego, thinking he knows better than me or wanting to show he knows better than me.
The reason why my supervisor did it is quite interesting: he is getting mobbed. This team gangs up on doctors, whatever their ranks. And you need them to move forward. So they form a tight unit, not to collaborate (it doesn't feels like collaborating with most of them most of the time, but most like a tug-of-war where they try to step on our toes and one-up us), but to be stronger towards physicians and make them miserable.
So instead of coming to see me or telling the nurse: "It's John's patient, you have to talk to him". He went: 1. out of ego (he's very proud to be the chief) and 2. out of fear that this team would make his life more miserable (they already did, he submitted to them already: they have a well-tried submission process of physicians through a series of games to make them feel inferior/inadequate and scared that they would report them to higher ups, thus easier to control)
What I'm going to do
I still have 7 months of working with this team, about 7 days in these 7 months. So that's not a lot. Factually they cannot do anything towards me in terms of professional consequences: I am not evaluated by the ED team, so no consequences for me. There's a reputation risk. That is they talk shit behind people's back even 10 years after they left. For instance, once someone is an established paediatrician, they told me about this person (working 10+ years already): "Oh this one was not so good". So you can imagine they talk like that to patients, physicians and colleague nurses altogether. Really nasty people (who think they're awesome and cool).
So I'm going to:
Confront him: "what happened the other day?" then: "why did you go to see my supervisor?" then "Next time, I want you to come to me as it is both professional and respectful. There was no emergency, I had my alarm set and the evaluation was due at 10PM. I still had plenty of time to put in the orders and I had finished my consult in time. I think what you did was not cool.
Talk to my supervisor: "You know about the other day. I think the nurse should have come see me directly. I was in time, blablablaa" and see how he reacts.
Now I don't have anything to lose as I'm not evaluated by this team anymore. So I'm free to experiment and make mistakes. These will be small mistakes as I'm now much more power aware and have better social skills.
Long post again! Damn!
Thank you for reading this far.
Cheers!

Hello everyone,

Yesterday I was working at the paediatric emergency deparment. So guess what I have? Yes! Power moves stories from nasty game players nurses.

The first one is here more as sharing what I learned. The second one I'm happy to have feed-back on.

I talked recently with a nice professional nurse whom I work with and that I consider a "work friend". Her opinion on this team: they are "carrions" ("charognes" in French, which expression means: nasty, aggressive, dark and mean, more or less). So I was happy to hear that other nurses had the same experience as I did. She told me about the bullying/mobbing and the negative team dynamics that I also observed.

The (child) psychiatric nurse is not coming

We were waiting for the child psychiatric nurse to evaluate a child. She came then left so I went to see another child. I come out of the room after the consult and nurses tell me: "The mother was getting agitated and angry". I say: "gotta come and get me", surprised. They say: "now she's in". So I said: "good".

Analysis

The power move is the following: I'm in charge of the patient. So I must know what is happening. They kept me in the dark while sending the psychiatric nurse. So they did manage the situation and I could have congratulated them for this. So I could be framed as "too controlling". However, I must know there is a problem so I can manage it. If I'm not available, so be it. But I could have interrupted the non-urgent consult and go solve the problem. That's what they're supposed to do: if there's an issue, warn the physician in charge. So this was the power move element. They got the work done but in a way that was bypassing me. So I did not confront them as they got the job done still.

2. My boss does the evaluation and put the orders in instead of me.

So this one is nastier. I evaluated a patient first, then the attending physician wanted to evaluate him with me. He taught me a small variation on what I did but overall was very satisfied with my job.

He tells me to put the orders in so he can be hospitalised (how many times per day should the nurses check the vitals, medications, etc.). I was to evaluate him again at 10pm. So I go see another patient. When I go out at 9:55pm, my supervisor told me: "I put in the orders" as if I had not done my job. The truth is there was still plenty of time to do it.

I go see the patient and there is a male nurse (one of the huge game players I did not know until then). He's giving a lot of explanations to the grand mother. He loves to play the expert and take the teacher role. Not in the sense that it is always necessary, but in the sense that he likes to show off what he knows since he has 15 years of experience or so. He says to me: "we evaluated him with your supervisor" (again implying I did not do my job). I self-power protected: "you did well" taking back the leadership. I did not feel bad as at least things were moving forward.

It's when I came out that I realised that he went straight to my supervisor to evaluate the patient BEFORE 10PM. So he short-circuited me before I could do my job. After the evaluation at 10 PM, of course I would have put the orders in. So I call this game: "who did not do what" (could be in dictionary or PU as seen fit), where people are looking for things you forget or did not do yet (even if there was some time left) to point out that you did not do your job.

So I told my boss that it was due at 10 PM my evaluation and at this moment my alarm rings (showing that I would have gone there). He says to me: "maybe the nurse was getting bored" to turn it into a joke. But he was feeling uneasy as he knew it was a power move.

Side note: he's quite a social climber himself. During the morning meeting where the whole team is there and his supervisors (executive physicians) are there as well. What he does is social climb on his absent peers: "X thought this and it's obviously not that, hahaha". Making light fun or implying that what they did was stupid, incompetent or inadequate. So he knows the game as a practitioner himself. This was not out of naivety.

To summarise: the nurse short-circuited me to see my boss and came as an expert to see the parents. Net result: he made me look as if I did not do my job properly towards my supervisor.

Analysis

The reason why the nurse did that: we discussed here at length all ready: feeling powerful, insecurity, ego, thinking he knows better than me or wanting to show he knows better than me.

The reason why my supervisor did it is quite interesting: he is getting mobbed. This team gangs up on doctors, whatever their ranks. And you need them to move forward. So they form a tight unit, not to collaborate (it doesn't feels like collaborating with most of them most of the time, but most like a tug-of-war where they try to step on our toes and one-up us), but to be stronger towards physicians and make them miserable.

So instead of coming to see me or telling the nurse: "It's John's patient, you have to talk to him". He went: 1. out of ego (he's very proud to be the chief) and 2. out of fear that this team would make his life more miserable (they already did, he submitted to them already: they have a well-tried submission process of physicians through a series of games to make them feel inferior/inadequate and scared that they would report them to higher ups, thus easier to control)

What I'm going to do

I still have 7 months of working with this team, about 7 days in these 7 months. So that's not a lot. Factually they cannot do anything towards me in terms of professional consequences: I am not evaluated by the ED team, so no consequences for me. There's a reputation risk. That is they talk shit behind people's back even 10 years after they left. For instance, once someone is an established paediatrician, they told me about this person (working 10+ years already): "Oh this one was not so good". So you can imagine they talk like that to patients, physicians and colleague nurses altogether. Really nasty people (who think they're awesome and cool).

So I'm going to:

Confront him: "what happened the other day?" then: "why did you go to see my supervisor?" then "Next time, I want you to come to me as it is both professional and respectful. There was no emergency, I had my alarm set and the evaluation was due at 10PM. I still had plenty of time to put in the orders and I had finished my consult in time. I think what you did was not cool.
Talk to my supervisor: "You know about the other day. I think the nurse should have come see me directly. I was in time, blablablaa" and see how he reacts.

Now I don't have anything to lose as I'm not evaluated by this team anymore. So I'm free to experiment and make mistakes. These will be small mistakes as I'm now much more power aware and have better social skills.

Long post again! Damn!

Thank you for reading this far.

Cheers!

#2 · September 25, 2022, 10:59 pm

Thanks for sharing John. Nice case study.

Kind of a combo of the who does what and fast forward power moves. I d talk to the supervisor first.

"Hey it's not a big deal. The nurse just got it wrong If they come to you early can you please send them back to me."

Then to nurse

"Hey it's not a big deal. You were just being keen. But it's better for the team if we stick to our protocols. So in future if it's normal work please check in with me. I ve spoken to (supervisor) and he agrees."

If you don't get any joy then raise it as a team issue at team meeting. Benefit of fresh eyes Do we need to fix this process? How can we be better organised and save supervisors valuable time.

John Freeman and B have reacted to this post.

#3 · September 26, 2022, 4:52 am

BTW if you decide you re less invested or to go in gently and go hard for a repeat offence later.

You could just talk to the nurse.

"Hey when we ve still got plenty of time and it's my assessment could you come to me first. It's better for the patient and keeps us organised.

Then casually mention as a tail at the end of other talk with the supervisor.

John Freeman and B have reacted to this post.

#4 · September 26, 2022, 5:22 am

Quote from John Freeman on September 26, 2022, 5:22 am
Thank you very much your answers, Transitioned.
I think these are great strategies, both of them.
I'll follow your advice: I'll talk first to my supervisor as I can refer to that when talking with the nurse from a higher authority. What I will say will have more impact. If I adapt to my style, I would say:
Supervisor
"You remember the other day when the nurse called you to evaluate the patient? I think that if it's not urgent, the time has not yet come for the evaluation, and I'm in the vincinity it's better if the nurse come directly to me or call me on my phone. What do you think? Blalbblal". Then me: "I think it's not respectful as I'm in charge of the patient, they knew where I was and it's a waste of your time (ego stroking). What do you think? Blabla And I cement with: "I'm glad we agree (warm smiles), have a great day, thank you very much!" (rebuilds rapport)
Basically, all I want is his agreement that I should not be short-circuited. I will not ask him to change his behaviour as to power-protect him. Maybe I'll learn from him what did not work in this situation.
From him, I want to borrow his power and authority. He already knows that it was not cool from him and the nurse. So this short conversation be enough, especially that as a resident he has also been short-circuited, so this shows his character. He does not have our interest in mind, so this is poor leadership. He cares for himself only. He does not treat us as he would like to be treated. Orange flag.
Nurse
Now I have borrowed his power. I go to the nurse.
"Can I talk to you for a minute? (same as above, especially publicly so people know he's getting reprimanded and that I have the power to do so: social consequences. Even if his colleagues think the motive was bullshit and I'm thick skinned, they'll know I'm ready to confront them. Also this makes an example out of him: nobody likes to be chastised publicly).
It's not a big deal (by using this I hint that it was not cool but that I'm willing to let it go). You remember the other day when you went with Jarvis evaluate the patient on Saturday? Can you tell me what happened because I did not understand (play the naive on purpose, let him explain, put him in the defensive position). Well, I spoke with him about this. We both agreed that in these non-urgent situation you must ("must" instead of should as I have power-borrowed, I instruct him from the borrowed power) come to me first. (leave a silent for him to justify more... to gain more power)
You know my phone number, you know in what room I am, so just come and get me, ok? (once again I can use a light condescending tone in mirroring of the disrespect as to re-establish the hierarchy, here I use the "ok?" also as to have him acquiesce to the instruction, to cement the rapport and put him in the subordinate position, I will smile though).
I cement with a "I'm glad with agree", smile and shake his hand (as in: if you're a good boy, I'll be nice to you, rebuilds rapport).
It will seem a bit too intense for this kind of situation. However, these people have been playing games on me for a long time, including him. So I have to show some teeth here. As Lucio said, it's in these little interactions that power are redefined. If I let this one slip, I cement the frame that I can be short-circuited. Also, he went to my boss, so it's only normal I do the same. I show him that if he can call to a higher authority so can I.
It will be a short conversation and it will show him that I'm not to be messed with. As you know I won't stay there long. I don't want to make an enemy out of him, he has 15 years of experience so he's rather high status in the nurse group. However, I have to be more firm.
So this will be an interesting experiment. I can always backtrack if necessary:
Me: "Man it's all good, it happens. Now we both know how to behave next time! (win-win/collaborative frame, share the blame, smiles, rebuild goodwill)."
If he tries to frame me as me making too much out of it:
Me: "As I said it's not a big deal. I think it's important to have direct and clear communication in a team, don't you think? (again a bit condescending on purpose, to put him back in his place and get him to say "yes").
Thanks a lot, as you see your input sparked quite a few ideas!
I'm aware all of this is a bit strong, but this one was the straw on the camel back. They mobbed and bullied me and other people for too long. Someone has to lay down the law and now I have the social support to do so.
I'll write another post soon with one of their favourite games. I ignored it for a bit, now I'll address it.
PS: I see it's a bit too intense with the nurse, I'll make it lighter. Intensity comes from my anger.

Thank you very much your answers, Transitioned.

I think these are great strategies, both of them.

I'll follow your advice: I'll talk first to my supervisor as I can refer to that when talking with the nurse from a higher authority. What I will say will have more impact. If I adapt to my style, I would say:

Supervisor

"You remember the other day when the nurse called you to evaluate the patient? I think that if it's not urgent, the time has not yet come for the evaluation, and I'm in the vincinity it's better if the nurse come directly to me or call me on my phone. What do you think? Blalbblal". Then me: "I think it's not respectful as I'm in charge of the patient, they knew where I was and it's a waste of your time (ego stroking). What do you think? Blabla And I cement with: "I'm glad we agree (warm smiles), have a great day, thank you very much!" (rebuilds rapport)

Basically, all I want is his agreement that I should not be short-circuited. I will not ask him to change his behaviour as to power-protect him. Maybe I'll learn from him what did not work in this situation.

From him, I want to borrow his power and authority. He already knows that it was not cool from him and the nurse. So this short conversation be enough, especially that as a resident he has also been short-circuited, so this shows his character. He does not have our interest in mind, so this is poor leadership. He cares for himself only. He does not treat us as he would like to be treated. Orange flag.

Nurse

Now I have borrowed his power. I go to the nurse.

"Can I talk to you for a minute? (same as above, especially publicly so people know he's getting reprimanded and that I have the power to do so: social consequences. Even if his colleagues think the motive was bullshit and I'm thick skinned, they'll know I'm ready to confront them. Also this makes an example out of him: nobody likes to be chastised publicly).
It's not a big deal (by using this I hint that it was not cool but that I'm willing to let it go). You remember the other day when you went with Jarvis evaluate the patient on Saturday? Can you tell me what happened because I did not understand (play the naive on purpose, let him explain, put him in the defensive position). Well, I spoke with him about this. We both agreed that in these non-urgent situation you must ("must" instead of should as I have power-borrowed, I instruct him from the borrowed power) come to me first. (leave a silent for him to justify more... to gain more power)
You know my phone number, you know in what room I am, so just come and get me, ok? (once again I can use a light condescending tone in mirroring of the disrespect as to re-establish the hierarchy, here I use the "ok?" also as to have him acquiesce to the instruction, to cement the rapport and put him in the subordinate position, I will smile though).
I cement with a "I'm glad with agree", smile and shake his hand (as in: if you're a good boy, I'll be nice to you, rebuilds rapport).

It will seem a bit too intense for this kind of situation. However, these people have been playing games on me for a long time, including him. So I have to show some teeth here. As Lucio said, it's in these little interactions that power are redefined. If I let this one slip, I cement the frame that I can be short-circuited. Also, he went to my boss, so it's only normal I do the same. I show him that if he can call to a higher authority so can I.

It will be a short conversation and it will show him that I'm not to be messed with. As you know I won't stay there long. I don't want to make an enemy out of him, he has 15 years of experience so he's rather high status in the nurse group. However, I have to be more firm.

So this will be an interesting experiment. I can always backtrack if necessary:

Me: "Man it's all good, it happens. Now we both know how to behave next time! (win-win/collaborative frame, share the blame, smiles, rebuild goodwill)."

If he tries to frame me as me making too much out of it:

Me: "As I said it's not a big deal. I think it's important to have direct and clear communication in a team, don't you think? (again a bit condescending on purpose, to put him back in his place and get him to say "yes").

Thanks a lot, as you see your input sparked quite a few ideas!

I'm aware all of this is a bit strong, but this one was the straw on the camel back. They mobbed and bullied me and other people for too long. Someone has to lay down the law and now I have the social support to do so.

I'll write another post soon with one of their favourite games. I ignored it for a bit, now I'll address it.

PS: I see it's a bit too intense with the nurse, I'll make it lighter. Intensity comes from my anger.

#5 · September 26, 2022, 6:45 am

I see my main mistake was to leave without having addressing it right away. It’s only afterwards that I realized what happened. As I was tired I took part of the blame by mistake at the time. Whatever my responsibility I will address the game next time.

#6 · September 26, 2022, 11:56 pm

Don't be too tough on yourself. If he s been there years this was probably one of his standard plays. Hard to be perfect when you have not seen it before. How hard to go is over to you and how big a PITA these guys are. Nobody knows the local terrain better than you.

John Freeman and B have reacted to this post.

#7 · September 27, 2022, 11:03 am

Thanks Transitioned!

There’s a conclusion. I’ll write very soon about it. The situation has changed.

#8 · September 27, 2022, 12:48 pm

Quote from John Freeman on September 27, 2022, 12:48 pm
Hello Transitioned,
I wrote a post yesterday but the browser crashed.
Anyway, so yesterday I talked with my supervisor. I asked him: "is that right that in non-urgent situations, nurses must check with residents first?". He told me that it was him who went to evaluate the patient. Because he's in charge, he wants to evaluate all patients being hospitalized. At the morning report if he does not know the patients, he looks like an ass towards his superiors and the team.
He explained to me that I'll see that when I'll be in charge as well. He congratulated me 3 times for the quality of my work. He touched me on the shoulder with affection before leaving. Whereas in the past he slapped me once in the back as he does to some other residents to assert his dominance (see Bel's post).
Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on September 26, 2022, 9:03 pm
You: (pats him back) yo man, take it easy with those backslaps
Above, for repetition and learning.
Analysis
So it was actually my chief who not really short-circuited me, but who did not keep me in the loop.
Being vulnerable with my supervisor increased our bond, his confidence in me (as I showed professionalism).
Increased my status as his (private) congratulations cemented the reality that I'm a good worker.
Transitioned's strategy was the right one: if I would have gone to the nurse first, it would have been trickier. Plus, I would have gone with a higher sub-text of anger/aggression, damaging our relationship. I cannot yet formalize this strategy to go to the supervisor.
As discussed with Bel, because there has been so many games and short-circuiting from this particular team of nurses, I was expecting the same. As Todd Valentine says: "relationship are based on precedence". So the negative history biased me wrongly towards this interpretation of the event. As we saw, this could make us go on pre-emptively offensive because we are being defensive (angry animals attack). This negative pre-frame carry the risk of us engaging in negative/aggressive behavior that will provoke an equally aggressive response, further damaging the relationship and creating a confirmation bias. Dangerous as it can go unnoticed as discussed recently here (Bel and also I).
Also, if remember correctly: Kevin's SO is a nurse, I want to re-iterate that there are more than plenty of amazing nurses. I work with 4 of them. Great people, great nurses. As in my own and every profession for that matter, there are bad apples though.
They are having a negative effect on their colleagues and the person they're supposed to bring value to. So it is not about a particular profession, this is about individuals with character defects and/or negative Worldview and destructive behavioural patterns who happen to work in a given profession.
This is also about negative and aggressive group dynamics (bullying, mobbing, gossiping, silent treatment, shunning, demeaning, etc.) and the contamination effect of these bad apples, who are often dominant, aggressive and manipulative individuals.
There is also an effect that has been documented is that prestigious or high rewards professions attract individuals who want the benefit of it and are less interested in the actual work. That also explains why they are chatting very often and for a long period. Many people in this team like what they do (some lost the passion of course) I think, but for some individuals I suspect it is not the main reason they come to work, though.
So even though my interpretation of the situation was a dud, I learned many lessons. I learned from Lucio's attitude: go into the situation, even if you fail or do badly, you will learn. This attitude is a gold nugget.
Cheers!

Hello Transitioned,

I wrote a post yesterday but the browser crashed.

Anyway, so yesterday I talked with my supervisor. I asked him: "is that right that in non-urgent situations, nurses must check with residents first?". He told me that it was him who went to evaluate the patient. Because he's in charge, he wants to evaluate all patients being hospitalized. At the morning report if he does not know the patients, he looks like an ass towards his superiors and the team.

He explained to me that I'll see that when I'll be in charge as well. He congratulated me 3 times for the quality of my work. He touched me on the shoulder with affection before leaving. Whereas in the past he slapped me once in the back as he does to some other residents to assert his dominance (see Bel's post).

Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on September 26, 2022, 9:03 pm
You: (pats him back) yo man, take it easy with those backslaps

Above, for repetition and learning.

Analysis

So it was actually my chief who not really short-circuited me, but who did not keep me in the loop.

Being vulnerable with my supervisor increased our bond, his confidence in me (as I showed professionalism).

Increased my status as his (private) congratulations cemented the reality that I'm a good worker.

Transitioned's strategy was the right one: if I would have gone to the nurse first, it would have been trickier. Plus, I would have gone with a higher sub-text of anger/aggression, damaging our relationship. I cannot yet formalize this strategy to go to the supervisor.

As discussed with Bel, because there has been so many games and short-circuiting from this particular team of nurses, I was expecting the same. As Todd Valentine says: "relationship are based on precedence". So the negative history biased me wrongly towards this interpretation of the event. As we saw, this could make us go on pre-emptively offensive because we are being defensive (angry animals attack). This negative pre-frame carry the risk of us engaging in negative/aggressive behavior that will provoke an equally aggressive response, further damaging the relationship and creating a confirmation bias. Dangerous as it can go unnoticed as discussed recently here (Bel and also I).

Also, if remember correctly: Kevin's SO is a nurse, I want to re-iterate that there are more than plenty of amazing nurses. I work with 4 of them. Great people, great nurses. As in my own and every profession for that matter, there are bad apples though.

They are having a negative effect on their colleagues and the person they're supposed to bring value to. So it is not about a particular profession, this is about individuals with character defects and/or negative Worldview and destructive behavioural patterns who happen to work in a given profession.

This is also about negative and aggressive group dynamics (bullying, mobbing, gossiping, silent treatment, shunning, demeaning, etc.) and the contamination effect of these bad apples, who are often dominant, aggressive and manipulative individuals.

There is also an effect that has been documented is that prestigious or high rewards professions attract individuals who want the benefit of it and are less interested in the actual work. That also explains why they are chatting very often and for a long period. Many people in this team like what they do (some lost the passion of course) I think, but for some individuals I suspect it is not the main reason they come to work, though.

So even though my interpretation of the situation was a dud, I learned many lessons. I learned from Lucio's attitude: go into the situation, even if you fail or do badly, you will learn. This attitude is a gold nugget.

Cheers!

B has reacted to this post.

#9 · June 17, 2023, 8:58 am

Hi John

I know this is very old news but I missed your posts so I might weigh in with a couple of thoughts coz I didn't share the why I go to the boss first. Of course everything is better with bacon or ketchup or hindsight.

I think there is a general principle of whenever it concerns workflow in a team do go to your boss.w Just to be operating with better info. The may have set it up (as in this case) to suite them. Or it might change in some circumstances e.g. big boss override or what I call the Wendy on Wednesday principle. We always do it that way except every 2nd Wednesday Wendy comes in and she likes to do it this way. History, we do it that way because we came from 2 merged departments....and blah blah.

When you do go to them I normally start high level 'Hey Boss been here for a couple of months settled in. And now I wanted understand a bit more how you like the team to run.' To start with your in scout mode - what does the boss want?

If no mines pop up then you can raise what you want to while maintaining a bit of deniability.

you can hide behind:

Making things easier for them (you used this one well)
Making things better for the team (as long as its a KPI that he cares about - i.e. his boss cares about)
A threat to his authority - i.e. he's told them do this - they do that

You've had management experience yourself now so I'd be very interested in your thoughts.

John Freeman has reacted to this post.

#10 · June 29, 2023, 9:52 pm

Hi Transitioned,

thank you very much for your answer!

I think there is a general principle of whenever it concerns workflow in a team do go to your boss.w Just to be operating with better info. The may have set it up (as in this case) to suite them. Or it might change in some circumstances e.g. big boss override or what I call the Wendy on Wednesday principle. We always do it that way except every 2nd Wednesday Wendy comes in and she likes to do it this way. History, we do it that way because we came from 2 merged departments....and blah blah.

Golden. In my notes.

When you do go to them I normally start high level 'Hey Boss been here for a couple of months settled in. And now I wanted understand a bit more how you like the team to run.' To start with your in scout mode - what does the boss want?

Golden with a dash of diamond on top of it! In my notes, thank you my friend. This is great speech for signaling deference to authority, team player and getting-shit-done attitude.

Making things easier for them (you used this one well)
Making things better for the team (as long as its a KPI that he cares about - i.e. his boss cares about)
A threat to his authority - i.e. he's told them do this - they do that

In my notes as well. This is very helpful for me, thanks a lot!

My thoughts are that I'm new to this gig so I have a few concepts, ideas and past experiences. However, it's the first time I have proper subordinates who are under my direct authority and responsibility in this sense. I had interns under me but it was mostly teaching there was never a threat to my authority. And nurses have to obey our orders but they have their own parallel hierarchy so it's a bit different.

I know you have a lot of experience under your belt as a team leader so I'm learning from you!