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Guilt-trip for not being vulnerable enough (man-woman dynamics)

#1 · November 22, 2023, 6:34 pm

Quote from John Freeman on November 22, 2023, 6:34 pm
Hello TPM community,
I hope the title is descriptive enough, if not feel free to change it.
Yesterday I was in bed with a new date and she said something along these lines:
Her (light mocking tone with mimicking a man's voice): Oh you men: "I don't want her to know what I think nor my feelings, I'm a man"
Me: (said nothing, I needed time to think, so I gathered the intel).
For some context:
It was the 2nd date and first time we got intimate.
Earlier in the night she asked me what I was thinking about (I shoved it aside).
After the first date, she said that she did not know where I stood and if I was interested in a second date.
Analysis
To me it's manipulative. It did not phase me but I felt something was wrong. It's manipulative because it's a guilt-trip so that the man will open up about his thoughts and feelings. So then it gives her more information if only for the sake of knowing where she stands in the relationship or info on what makes him tick so she can give him what he wants. So in a way it's win-win as if he's upfront with thoughts and feelings, then she can go back and forth on this and it builds up the relationship.
In this case, I don't remember exactly what she wanted to know. But basically she has been asking too much information too soon, through text also. I can tell that she's the kind of woman who's used to get her way through her attractiveness and intelligence.
I'm not being especially closed-off with her. I talked about many personal topics. I think as I worked on my people pleasing habits and power, now I don't feel like oversharing. I feel more comfortable knowing about other people and see if they're a good fit for me.
Also the fact that she asked me on the 2nd date to tell her what I was thinking about is a red flag. Sometimes I feel like asking this question to people but I don't. I think one's thought is the actual only part that is 100% intimate. So I think respecting it is quite important. If people feel like sharing their thoughts or in the course of a conversation someone wants to know what they think about what has been said: fine.
But otherwise, out of the blue, it's a no-no.
So it also goes back to what Lucio said: we don't have to answer if we don't want to. It's the same with sharing our thoughts and feelings. It's not because someone is asking us to share what we think and feel that we have to do it. It sounds obvious but in some situations where we want people to like us/accept us, we're not always ready to take this risk.
Now, going back to her, I think she's quite insecure regarding men's feelings and thoughts towards her. So I think she does that out of insecurity. It's a reason not an excuse. So she gives me the judge role in a way, but it's a bit twisted. She also did the same when she asked me how I'm recharging after my job as I felt it was too personal to ask. So I think she's kind of forcing information out of me and it actually turns me off.

Hello TPM community,

I hope the title is descriptive enough, if not feel free to change it.

Yesterday I was in bed with a new date and she said something along these lines:

Her (light mocking tone with mimicking a man's voice): Oh you men: "I don't want her to know what I think nor my feelings, I'm a man"
Me: (said nothing, I needed time to think, so I gathered the intel).

For some context:

It was the 2nd date and first time we got intimate.
Earlier in the night she asked me what I was thinking about (I shoved it aside).
After the first date, she said that she did not know where I stood and if I was interested in a second date.

Analysis

To me it's manipulative. It did not phase me but I felt something was wrong. It's manipulative because it's a guilt-trip so that the man will open up about his thoughts and feelings. So then it gives her more information if only for the sake of knowing where she stands in the relationship or info on what makes him tick so she can give him what he wants. So in a way it's win-win as if he's upfront with thoughts and feelings, then she can go back and forth on this and it builds up the relationship.

In this case, I don't remember exactly what she wanted to know. But basically she has been asking too much information too soon, through text also. I can tell that she's the kind of woman who's used to get her way through her attractiveness and intelligence.

I'm not being especially closed-off with her. I talked about many personal topics. I think as I worked on my people pleasing habits and power, now I don't feel like oversharing. I feel more comfortable knowing about other people and see if they're a good fit for me.

Also the fact that she asked me on the 2nd date to tell her what I was thinking about is a red flag. Sometimes I feel like asking this question to people but I don't. I think one's thought is the actual only part that is 100% intimate. So I think respecting it is quite important. If people feel like sharing their thoughts or in the course of a conversation someone wants to know what they think about what has been said: fine.

But otherwise, out of the blue, it's a no-no.

So it also goes back to what Lucio said: we don't have to answer if we don't want to. It's the same with sharing our thoughts and feelings. It's not because someone is asking us to share what we think and feel that we have to do it. It sounds obvious but in some situations where we want people to like us/accept us, we're not always ready to take this risk.

Now, going back to her, I think she's quite insecure regarding men's feelings and thoughts towards her. So I think she does that out of insecurity. It's a reason not an excuse. So she gives me the judge role in a way, but it's a bit twisted. She also did the same when she asked me how I'm recharging after my job as I felt it was too personal to ask. So I think she's kind of forcing information out of me and it actually turns me off.

Lucio Buffalmano, Kavalier and Power Duck have reacted to this post.

#2 · November 22, 2023, 7:34 pm

Actually, it's more shaming than guilt tripping.

Kavalier and Power Duck have reacted to this post.

#3 · November 23, 2023, 5:07 am

Quote from Kavalier on November 23, 2023, 5:07 am
Hello, John!
I wouldn't personally see a red flag in a woman asking what I'm thinking - though all depends on the frequency and intensity with which she's doing it, whether you enforced boundaries before and she kept being pushy, etc. It's more the woman x man/mimicking that would bother me, but I'd wait to see if it's a one time thing or a pattern.
It might be that you expect different levels of overture when it comes to sharing. Some people share more and expect others to share accordingly, and may start to feel insecure if you don't match their levels or don't reassure them enough. It's by trial and error that couples find the sweet spot, so her asking is part of the process.
Also, the first thing is to ask yourself: are you really sharing enough?
She also did the same when she asked me how I'm recharging after my job
I put this first because this example is one thing I wouldn't consider something too personal for someone I'm going out with to ask. So it's worth thinking whether what you're considering too much information is indeed too much information, or if it's you who have to adjust your expectations about privacy.
Normally, when a woman asks you what you're thinking, consider that:
Perhaps you are not giving your full attention to her or the situation you are in, and she can feel your detachment (be more present)
Perhaps you seem upset and she's asking because she cares about you (or because she thinks she might have something to do with it. In this case, be more present and acknowledge her caring or reassure her)
Perhaps she's trying to make conversation in moments of awkward silence and doesn't know what to say (lead some more)
For the above situations, the main thing would be to surface what she's worried about and reassure her that everything is all right, you were not thinking about anything in particular, etc.
I feel it's important, when we are in a date, to be fully present. If we're not, we are already at fault. So I wouldn't discard a
Sorry, girl, you caught me absent minded. Work stuff. But nevermind that. (Changing the subject): are you hungry? What about eating at X?
And take that as a cue to be more present in spirit and active for the rest of the date.
If none of the above apply and she's really asking for too much information, or being too pushy, you can simply tell her: "that's too much information" and broken record. Then take charge of the conversation, directing it to what you are comfortable talking about.
Now, about the specific dialogue you wrote: while there's a shaming component, I interpret the delivery more on the teasing side, so it's not insanely disempowering. It's something you address subtly.
You could do it with a push-pull:
Her (light mocking tone with mimicking a man's voice): Oh you men: "I don't want her to know what I think nor my feelings, I'm a man"
Me: (playfully) oh, you girls: never fail to be nosy, don't you? (then you hug, kiss, caress or even tickle her, if you're rather playful. The idea is to show affection while shaming her back)
If she doesn't surface it herself, you can do it:
Me: so tell me, what is troubling you?
A note about man x woman comments: as long as she is not too incisive about it, this is something you can address over time if you decide she's worth pursuing a relationship with. If she does it again, you can have a one on one with her about why you think this is detrimental to a relationship and you'd rather discard these kind of jokes.
P.S: In my interpretation this sounds more like shaming than guilty tripping too. Would you like me to change the title to "shaming for not being vulnerable"? A more accurate description will help other people to find the topic later.

Hello, John!

I wouldn't personally see a red flag in a woman asking what I'm thinking - though all depends on the frequency and intensity with which she's doing it, whether you enforced boundaries before and she kept being pushy, etc. It's more the woman x man/mimicking that would bother me, but I'd wait to see if it's a one time thing or a pattern.

It might be that you expect different levels of overture when it comes to sharing. Some people share more and expect others to share accordingly, and may start to feel insecure if you don't match their levels or don't reassure them enough. It's by trial and error that couples find the sweet spot, so her asking is part of the process.

Also, the first thing is to ask yourself: are you really sharing enough?

She also did the same when she asked me how I'm recharging after my job

I put this first because this example is one thing I wouldn't consider something too personal for someone I'm going out with to ask. So it's worth thinking whether what you're considering too much information is indeed too much information, or if it's you who have to adjust your expectations about privacy.

Normally, when a woman asks you what you're thinking, consider that:

Perhaps you are not giving your full attention to her or the situation you are in, and she can feel your detachment (be more present)
Perhaps you seem upset and she's asking because she cares about you (or because she thinks she might have something to do with it. In this case, be more present and acknowledge her caring or reassure her)
Perhaps she's trying to make conversation in moments of awkward silence and doesn't know what to say (lead some more)

For the above situations, the main thing would be to surface what she's worried about and reassure her that everything is all right, you were not thinking about anything in particular, etc.

I feel it's important, when we are in a date, to be fully present. If we're not, we are already at fault. So I wouldn't discard a

Sorry, girl, you caught me absent minded. Work stuff. But nevermind that. (Changing the subject): are you hungry? What about eating at X?

And take that as a cue to be more present in spirit and active for the rest of the date.

If none of the above apply and she's really asking for too much information, or being too pushy, you can simply tell her: "that's too much information" and broken record. Then take charge of the conversation, directing it to what you are comfortable talking about.

Now, about the specific dialogue you wrote: while there's a shaming component, I interpret the delivery more on the teasing side, so it's not insanely disempowering. It's something you address subtly.

You could do it with a push-pull:

Her (light mocking tone with mimicking a man's voice): Oh you men: "I don't want her to know what I think nor my feelings, I'm a man"
Me: (playfully) oh, you girls: never fail to be nosy, don't you? (then you hug, kiss, caress or even tickle her, if you're rather playful. The idea is to show affection while shaming her back)

If she doesn't surface it herself, you can do it:

Me: so tell me, what is troubling you?

A note about man x woman comments: as long as she is not too incisive about it, this is something you can address over time if you decide she's worth pursuing a relationship with. If she does it again, you can have a one on one with her about why you think this is detrimental to a relationship and you'd rather discard these kind of jokes.

P.S: In my interpretation this sounds more like shaming than guilty tripping too. Would you like me to change the title to "shaming for not being vulnerable"? A more accurate description will help other people to find the topic later.

Lucio Buffalmano, John Freeman and Power Duck have reacted to this post.

#4 · November 23, 2023, 11:03 am

Not sure how to classify, but definitely a power move/game.

What I'd definitely address of it:

I'm an individual, talk to me as such, not "men", don't lump me into your pre-made boxes
Ask me straight, don't go into these indirect ways. If you wanna know what I'm thinking, ask

Also, she doesn't realize that game is harming her as well.

It frames her as having had not-so-good experiences/relationships with men.
And of course we all have had not-so-good experiences in life, but still, it doesn't mean you wanna let those influence how you see and relate to any new person.

John Freeman, Kavalier and Power Duck have reacted to this post.

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#5 · November 25, 2023, 8:34 am

Quote from John Freeman on November 25, 2023, 8:34 am
Hello Kavalier!
Thank you very much for your answer!
Quote from Kavalier on November 23, 2023, 5:07 am
Hello, John!
I wouldn't personally see a red flag in a woman asking what I'm thinking - though all depends on the frequency and intensity with which she's doing it, whether you enforced boundaries before and she kept being pushy, etc. It's more the woman x man/mimicking that would bother me, but I'd wait to see if it's a one time thing or a pattern.
I agree with you. It's not a red flag. So let's say it's my preference. Basically my mindset is: it's no one's business what I'm thinking. Thoughts are private. It's up to me if I want to share them or not.
It might be that you expect different levels of overture when it comes to sharing. Some people share more and expect others to share accordingly, and may start to feel insecure if you don't match their levels or don't reassure them enough. It's by trial and error that couples find the sweet spot, so her asking is part of the process.
Also, the first thing is to ask yourself: are you really sharing enough?
Well, I think your point would be fair in other contexts. Here, it's the second time we're seeing each other, we're lying in bed after the deed and I'm being contemplative since 10 seconds. We're not a couple. So it's not about sharing it's about being silent together is fine and normal. I would rather talk about being comfortable with silence. Asking what someone is thinking after a short silence I think is more indicative of anxious attachment/anxiety. It's actually annoying.
Let's take an example as friends. If a friend and I are riding in the car together, we're being silent for 10 seconds or even 1 min or more and the friend ask me: "what are you thinking?" I'll find it annoying. Relax, man we don't have to talk all the time. If it's said in a positive tone I will answer, but to me it shows insecurity or anxiety. Not in 100% of cases but in most.
She also did the same when she asked me how I'm recharging after my job
I put this first because this example is one thing I wouldn't consider something too personal for someone I'm going out with to ask. So it's worth thinking whether what you're considering too much information is indeed too much information, or if it's you who have to adjust your expectations about privacy.
Again, we only had 1 date (drink) so far and it was after that she asked me:
1. It's the way she asked: through WA (with a wall of text as power protection: "if you don't feel like saying it I would..."). Some things are better talked about in person. Maybe for you how you recharge is a banal topic. For me, it's not. It's deep and personal. It's not something I would share with anyone.
2. It is an intimate question. It's a person I've seen once. I have a public and a private answer to this question.
Consider she's being texting me (almost) every day since we had our first date.
Normally, when a woman asks you what you're thinking, consider that:
Perhaps you are not giving your full attention to her or the situation you are in, and she can feel your detachment (be more present)
Perhaps you seem upset and she's asking because she cares about you (or because she thinks she might have something to do with it. In this case, be more present and acknowledge her caring or reassure her)
Perhaps she's trying to make conversation in moments of awkward silence and doesn't know what to say (lead some more)
I appreciate the suggestions. We were lying on our backs in a bed after sex. It was a short silence. I don't think I have to lead more. I think I can just enjoy my thoughts or the silence. In other contexts your suggestions makes sense I agree.
For the above situations, the main thing would be to surface what she's worried about and reassure her that everything is all right, you were not thinking about anything in particular, etc.
Again, it depends on the context. If I have to reassure a woman that I'm not thinking about anything in particular, it's going to be a problem I think.
I feel it's important, when we are in a date, to be fully present. If we're not, we are already at fault. So I wouldn't discard a
Sorry, girl, you caught me absent minded. Work stuff. But nevermind that. (Changing the subject): are you hungry? What about eating at X?
And take that as a cue to be more present in spirit and active for the rest of the date.
Not on a date but otherwise, sure. If in you're on a date in a conversation with someone and you go silent then yes totally.
If none of the above apply and she's really asking for too much information, or being too pushy, you can simply tell her: "that's too much information" and broken record. Then take charge of the conversation, directing it to what you are comfortable talking about.
Now, about the specific dialogue you wrote: while there's a shaming component, I interpret the delivery more on the teasing side, so it's not insanely disempowering. It's something you address subtly.
You could do it with a push-pull:
Her (light mocking tone with mimicking a man's voice): Oh you men: "I don't want her to know what I think nor my feelings, I'm a man"
Me: (playfully) oh, you girls: never fail to be nosy, don't you? (then you hug, kiss, caress or even tickle her, if you're rather playful. The idea is to show affection while shaming her back)
Good one, thanks.
If she doesn't surface it herself, you can do it:
Me: so tell me, what is troubling you?
A note about man x woman comments: as long as she is not too incisive about it, this is something you can address over time if you decide she's worth pursuing a relationship with. If she does it again, you can have a one on one with her about why you think this is detrimental to a relationship and you'd rather discard these kind of jokes.
Well, here she made an interpretation that was totally off. I don't care that she knows how I feel or what I think. So it's just her interpretation. What is important for me is that it's up to me when, how and with whom I share my thoughts and feelings. It's basic for me.
Of course, there are different situations: when in doubt it's fair to ask. If one gives a gift to someone else and is unsure the person is happy, it's fair to ask. If one is expressing one's opinion and the other person stays silent, it's fair to ask their opinion. So definitely use cases to ask: "what do you feel?" or "what do you think?".
More context: after the first date. 2 days later on WA she said: "Based on your neutral communication, I'm not sure if you're interested in continuing that". Well again, interpretation: during the date (4 hours, I stayed extra late because we had a good time) we exchanged many thoughts and emotions. It's just because she did not get a text after 2 days that she got anxious. For me I thought: "lady, it's been 2 days, just let me have some time to come up with a plan for the second date".
So basically, her issue is that she cannot read me, which is good. And also she's anxious about my feelings and thoughts about her, which is good. So I'm the dominant party and the leader of the relationship, which is good.
P.S: In my interpretation this sounds more like shaming than guilty tripping too. Would you like me to change the title to "shaming for not being vulnerable"? A more accurate description will help other people to find the topic later.
Yes, as I said in the beginning of the thread: feel free to change it to whatever you think is more fitting. So sure, thanks!
So basically I think your advice applies. I think here it's more that the context is different. And that it was coming more from her than me. Yes she needs reassurance but her behaviour since I met her is one of anxious attachment. Not too bad but still. When I arrived at her place she was making excuses for everything: from the apartment to the food. I said it was minimalist she thought it was criticism but it was an observation. So quite anxious about what I think about her from the beginning.
After having written all this I now think that she needs more compliments (even though I did gave her many, I think she needs more).

Hello Kavalier!

Thank you very much for your answer!

Quote from Kavalier on November 23, 2023, 5:07 am
Hello, John!
I wouldn't personally see a red flag in a woman asking what I'm thinking - though all depends on the frequency and intensity with which she's doing it, whether you enforced boundaries before and she kept being pushy, etc. It's more the woman x man/mimicking that would bother me, but I'd wait to see if it's a one time thing or a pattern.

I agree with you. It's not a red flag. So let's say it's my preference. Basically my mindset is: it's no one's business what I'm thinking. Thoughts are private. It's up to me if I want to share them or not.

It might be that you expect different levels of overture when it comes to sharing. Some people share more and expect others to share accordingly, and may start to feel insecure if you don't match their levels or don't reassure them enough. It's by trial and error that couples find the sweet spot, so her asking is part of the process.
Also, the first thing is to ask yourself: are you really sharing enough?

Well, I think your point would be fair in other contexts. Here, it's the second time we're seeing each other, we're lying in bed after the deed and I'm being contemplative since 10 seconds. We're not a couple. So it's not about sharing it's about being silent together is fine and normal. I would rather talk about being comfortable with silence. Asking what someone is thinking after a short silence I think is more indicative of anxious attachment/anxiety. It's actually annoying.

Let's take an example as friends. If a friend and I are riding in the car together, we're being silent for 10 seconds or even 1 min or more and the friend ask me: "what are you thinking?" I'll find it annoying. Relax, man we don't have to talk all the time. If it's said in a positive tone I will answer, but to me it shows insecurity or anxiety. Not in 100% of cases but in most.

She also did the same when she asked me how I'm recharging after my job
I put this first because this example is one thing I wouldn't consider something too personal for someone I'm going out with to ask. So it's worth thinking whether what you're considering too much information is indeed too much information, or if it's you who have to adjust your expectations about privacy.

Again, we only had 1 date (drink) so far and it was after that she asked me:

1. It's the way she asked: through WA (with a wall of text as power protection: "if you don't feel like saying it I would..."). Some things are better talked about in person. Maybe for you how you recharge is a banal topic. For me, it's not. It's deep and personal. It's not something I would share with anyone.

2. It is an intimate question. It's a person I've seen once. I have a public and a private answer to this question.

Consider she's being texting me (almost) every day since we had our first date.

Normally, when a woman asks you what you're thinking, consider that:
Perhaps you are not giving your full attention to her or the situation you are in, and she can feel your detachment (be more present)
Perhaps you seem upset and she's asking because she cares about you (or because she thinks she might have something to do with it. In this case, be more present and acknowledge her caring or reassure her)
Perhaps she's trying to make conversation in moments of awkward silence and doesn't know what to say (lead some more)

I appreciate the suggestions. We were lying on our backs in a bed after sex. It was a short silence. I don't think I have to lead more. I think I can just enjoy my thoughts or the silence. In other contexts your suggestions makes sense I agree.

For the above situations, the main thing would be to surface what she's worried about and reassure her that everything is all right, you were not thinking about anything in particular, etc.

Again, it depends on the context. If I have to reassure a woman that I'm not thinking about anything in particular, it's going to be a problem I think.

I feel it's important, when we are in a date, to be fully present. If we're not, we are already at fault. So I wouldn't discard a
Sorry, girl, you caught me absent minded. Work stuff. But nevermind that. (Changing the subject): are you hungry? What about eating at X?
And take that as a cue to be more present in spirit and active for the rest of the date.

Not on a date but otherwise, sure. If in you're on a date in a conversation with someone and you go silent then yes totally.

If none of the above apply and she's really asking for too much information, or being too pushy, you can simply tell her: "that's too much information" and broken record. Then take charge of the conversation, directing it to what you are comfortable talking about.
Now, about the specific dialogue you wrote: while there's a shaming component, I interpret the delivery more on the teasing side, so it's not insanely disempowering. It's something you address subtly.
You could do it with a push-pull:
Her (light mocking tone with mimicking a man's voice): Oh you men: "I don't want her to know what I think nor my feelings, I'm a man"
Me: (playfully) oh, you girls: never fail to be nosy, don't you? (then you hug, kiss, caress or even tickle her, if you're rather playful. The idea is to show affection while shaming her back)

Good one, thanks.

If she doesn't surface it herself, you can do it:
Me: so tell me, what is troubling you?
A note about man x woman comments: as long as she is not too incisive about it, this is something you can address over time if you decide she's worth pursuing a relationship with. If she does it again, you can have a one on one with her about why you think this is detrimental to a relationship and you'd rather discard these kind of jokes.

Well, here she made an interpretation that was totally off. I don't care that she knows how I feel or what I think. So it's just her interpretation. What is important for me is that it's up to me when, how and with whom I share my thoughts and feelings. It's basic for me.

Of course, there are different situations: when in doubt it's fair to ask. If one gives a gift to someone else and is unsure the person is happy, it's fair to ask. If one is expressing one's opinion and the other person stays silent, it's fair to ask their opinion. So definitely use cases to ask: "what do you feel?" or "what do you think?".

More context: after the first date. 2 days later on WA she said: "Based on your neutral communication, I'm not sure if you're interested in continuing that". Well again, interpretation: during the date (4 hours, I stayed extra late because we had a good time) we exchanged many thoughts and emotions. It's just because she did not get a text after 2 days that she got anxious. For me I thought: "lady, it's been 2 days, just let me have some time to come up with a plan for the second date".

So basically, her issue is that she cannot read me, which is good. And also she's anxious about my feelings and thoughts about her, which is good. So I'm the dominant party and the leader of the relationship, which is good.

P.S: In my interpretation this sounds more like shaming than guilty tripping too. Would you like me to change the title to "shaming for not being vulnerable"? A more accurate description will help other people to find the topic later.

Yes, as I said in the beginning of the thread: feel free to change it to whatever you think is more fitting. So sure, thanks!

So basically I think your advice applies. I think here it's more that the context is different. And that it was coming more from her than me. Yes she needs reassurance but her behaviour since I met her is one of anxious attachment. Not too bad but still. When I arrived at her place she was making excuses for everything: from the apartment to the food. I said it was minimalist she thought it was criticism but it was an observation. So quite anxious about what I think about her from the beginning.

After having written all this I now think that she needs more compliments (even though I did gave her many, I think she needs more).

#6 · November 25, 2023, 9:06 am

Quote from John Freeman on November 25, 2023, 9:06 am
Thank you Lucio for your answer!
Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on November 23, 2023, 11:03 am
Not sure how to classify, but definitely a power move/game.
Alright.
What I'd definitely address of it:
I'm an individual, talk to me as such, not "men", don't lump me into your pre-made boxes
I could not answer sooner but this gave me some distance to think. So this morning I now resonate 100% with this mindset. It's a powerful mindset. It goes both ways: I treat you as an individual, you treat me as an individual. I think it's definitely an upgrade towards the Eagle mindset.
Yeah it removes potential jokes, "you people from the South" with my French friends. But actually it's good to remove these jokes. They're value-taking. It's different, if it's value-adding: "You people from the South always bring laughter and joy". Not as bad but still bad (left it as an example). Much better: "you always bring laughter and joy". Not really a joke. But food for thoughts, you got me thinking. It's deep. Making jokes/comment on the category of the person to the person is actually degrading. I don't like when people do it to me neither. Thanks!
Ask me straight, don't go into these indirect ways. If you wanna know what I'm thinking, ask
Yeah I agree with asking straight. As I said above, I think it opens the whole topic: "how to react when someone asks you what you are thinking about out of the blue?". Like you are hiking together and the person is asking: "what are you thinking about?". For me it's like: "well, if you want to have a conversation, launch a topic. If you want to have a conversation, the responsibility is yours. Otherwise why do you want to know what I'm thinking about right now? And not 5 min earlier nor 5 later?" I'll be honest: it makes no sense to me. (for reference I'm very extrovert, I just learned to be comfortable with silence).
Also, she doesn't realize that game is harming her as well.
It frames her as having had not-so-good experiences/relationships with men.
Yeah, it makes sense.
And of course we all have had not-so-good experiences in life, but still, it doesn't mean you wanna let those influence how you see and relate to any new person.
Yeah, right.

Thank you Lucio for your answer!

Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on November 23, 2023, 11:03 am
Not sure how to classify, but definitely a power move/game.

Alright.

What I'd definitely address of it:
I'm an individual, talk to me as such, not "men", don't lump me into your pre-made boxes

I could not answer sooner but this gave me some distance to think. So this morning I now resonate 100% with this mindset. It's a powerful mindset. It goes both ways: I treat you as an individual, you treat me as an individual. I think it's definitely an upgrade towards the Eagle mindset.

Yeah it removes potential jokes, "you people from the South" with my French friends. But actually it's good to remove these jokes. They're value-taking. It's different, if it's value-adding: "You people from the South always bring laughter and joy". Not as bad but still bad (left it as an example). Much better: "you always bring laughter and joy". Not really a joke. But food for thoughts, you got me thinking. It's deep. Making jokes/comment on the category of the person to the person is actually degrading. I don't like when people do it to me neither. Thanks!

Ask me straight, don't go into these indirect ways. If you wanna know what I'm thinking, ask

Yeah I agree with asking straight. As I said above, I think it opens the whole topic: "how to react when someone asks you what you are thinking about out of the blue?". Like you are hiking together and the person is asking: "what are you thinking about?". For me it's like: "well, if you want to have a conversation, launch a topic. If you want to have a conversation, the responsibility is yours. Otherwise why do you want to know what I'm thinking about right now? And not 5 min earlier nor 5 later?" I'll be honest: it makes no sense to me. (for reference I'm very extrovert, I just learned to be comfortable with silence).

Also, she doesn't realize that game is harming her as well.
It frames her as having had not-so-good experiences/relationships with men.

Yeah, it makes sense.

And of course we all have had not-so-good experiences in life, but still, it doesn't mean you wanna let those influence how you see and relate to any new person.

Yeah, right.

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