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Higher expectations for forum use going forward: eagles remove THEIR OWN power moves

#1 · December 31, 2022, 4:10 am

Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on December 31, 2022, 4:10 am
I was starting a thread after the recent events in the feedbacks & clarifications thread.

Then I turned it into an article because it's that important:

The 4 stages of self-empowerment:

In brief, it says that the goal of learning about (social) power dynamics is not only to defend yourself and advance in life.
But it's also to get rid of your own power moves and learn to deal with other good people as a straight, honest, and fair person (and without power moves).

When it comes to forum moderation and behavior, I think it's the right time to raise the bar now and expect that type of behavior here.

Going forward: higher expectations & lower tolerance for power moves

In the past I've let several power moves slip on this forum.

In part, selfishly to save time and avoid longer escalations/explanations.

And also strategically because it's easy to be misunderstood when you flag or call out "less than ideal" behavior a bit too frequently.

Namely, you can pass as some pain in the ass purist with unattainable expectations.
Or, worse, as an asshole who enjoys picking on others. After all, it can be easy for one to feel or frame it as "you got something against beginners / me because you're always picking on new guys / me".
The only answer to that would be "no, you just pull too many power moves". But for people who don't yet even see power moves, they'd only see a confrontation, they wouldn't even know who's being sneaky, and I'd also lose out.

However, I've gladly seen that there are several folks now that are at the eagle stage.

So I think it's best now to have a lower tolerance for power moves within the community.
It will be better for forum use, for learning, and to showcase what a good group/community looks like.

Of course: balance.
No witch hunt, nobody is a saint, and mistakes are always welcome (as long as mistakes aren't an excuse to keep being an ahole, that is 🙂 ).
To flag a power move, it has to be an actual annoying, disrespectful or disempowering power move.

It's not a huge change anyway: there aren't many power moves here.

Still, when I see one, I'll be flagging it more often now.
And I'd also invite everyone here to do the same: if you feel someone was not cool, say it please :).
You'll also be doing a favor to that person.

Feedback or opinions welcome

If you have any feedback or opinion, I'm more than happy to read.

I was starting a thread after the recent events in the feedbacks & clarifications thread.

Then I turned it into an article because it's that important:

The 4 stages of self-empowerment:

In brief, it says that the goal of learning about (social) power dynamics is not only to defend yourself and advance in life.
But it's also to get rid of your own power moves and learn to deal with other good people as a straight, honest, and fair person (and without power moves).

When it comes to forum moderation and behavior, I think it's the right time to raise the bar now and expect that type of behavior here.

Going forward: higher expectations & lower tolerance for power moves

In the past I've let several power moves slip on this forum.

In part, selfishly to save time and avoid longer escalations/explanations.

And also strategically because it's easy to be misunderstood when you flag or call out "less than ideal" behavior a bit too frequently.

Namely, you can pass as some pain in the ass purist with unattainable expectations.
Or, worse, as an asshole who enjoys picking on others. After all, it can be easy for one to feel or frame it as "you got something against beginners / me because you're always picking on new guys / me".
The only answer to that would be "no, you just pull too many power moves". But for people who don't yet even see power moves, they'd only see a confrontation, they wouldn't even know who's being sneaky, and I'd also lose out.

However, I've gladly seen that there are several folks now that are at the eagle stage.

So I think it's best now to have a lower tolerance for power moves within the community.
It will be better for forum use, for learning, and to showcase what a good group/community looks like.

Of course: balance.
No witch hunt, nobody is a saint, and mistakes are always welcome (as long as mistakes aren't an excuse to keep being an ahole, that is 🙂 ).
To flag a power move, it has to be an actual annoying, disrespectful or disempowering power move.

It's not a huge change anyway: there aren't many power moves here.

Still, when I see one, I'll be flagging it more often now.
And I'd also invite everyone here to do the same: if you feel someone was not cool, say it please :).
You'll also be doing a favor to that person.

Feedback or opinions welcome

If you have any feedback or opinion, I'm more than happy to read.

Ali Scarlett, John Freeman and 10 other users have reacted to this post.

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#2 · January 1, 2023, 6:48 am

Quote from John Freeman on January 1, 2023, 6:48 am
Hello Lucio,

Thank you very much for this. I could not agree more with you. I also agree that now is a good time for this. In your post the "what" in your thread and the "why" in the article are quite clear. I would like to add the definition as it's always helpful for me. So I'm taking the liberty to remind your definition from the dictionary:

Power Move: in social dynamics and in general terms, any action that affects the power dynamics of interaction.
In more lay terms and in more common parlance, it’s an action or verbal expression that abruptlyand sometimes unexpectedly changes the power dynamics of an interaction.
A well-placed power move can turn an individual who was previously defensive or under assault into the one with power.
Power moves are one-off actions, while power moves that repeat over time are “games”.

Covert power move: a power move that is delivered with a mix of friendliness, professionalism and, sometimes, even submissiveness, but that in truth empowers the agent and disempowers or shames the receiver.

Micro-power move: small scale, daily power moves that impact the power dynamics and social status. Many people fail to see and properly address the micro-power moves, which can leave them down in power and status.

I think it's also important to define the "how" as you did:

To flag a power move, it has to be an actual annoying, disrespectful or disempowering power move.

I think it's also important to remind ourselves that a forum is ultimately a place for exchanges in order to learn. The goal is not to be right nor to make another user look bad or show that he's wrong. We're here to learn. So I think it's good to also "flag" it in a respectful, civil and polite manner even power-protecting if needed/wanted. For instance:

Hey man,

In this post I think you pulled a power move here (quotes the power move). I think it pertains to the "credit-inflating" category" (example here). So when you wrote this it makes it look as you deserve more credit that you actually do. So what do you think?

And give the other the opportunity to reflect and answer. That's the straight talk part. So I think it's important to:

Quote the PM

Label it if possible from a category of PM

Explain in what way it is a power move

This in order for everyone to learn and shift the frame from: "how dare you do that!!!" to "hey man you did this and this is why it's not cool and could happen also to you as well in the real life". So from the fighting frame to the learning frame. Even if you think the person did it on purpose, you can still use the same tone.

I also think a thread where people can ask if something is a power move (from themselves, someone else on the forum or in life could be useful). I'll start it now as I do have several questions (which are not PMs!!!), including an example from this thread.

Through the recent exchanges I realized that there is a component of power awareness. And this is power self-awareness. I now see that there are components to power awareness: reading power dynamics of a group from a far, feeling/reading the power dynamics when one is in it, feeling/reading how one is affecting the power dynamics.

There is also one more risk that is there: that someone would call out a power move as a power move (correction power move: it puts the corrector as superior to the corrected). So by being polite and respectful when "calling it out" I think it mitigates this risk a bit.

What do you think?

Other comments:

In part, selfishly to save time and avoid longer escalations/explanations.

That is why in the recent instances, twice I let it go. I let it go to avoid long back-and-forth with a risk of them not being productive.

Submissive: hopes people will treat him well and suffers when they don’t. He feels the effects of the game of power, but somehow never considered that he’s losing because of the game of power. He fails to grasp that beyond the saying “people will treat you how you will let them treat you” lays the game of power that is the answer to many of his woes

I sometimes do this mistake as recently for instance.

Plus, when you’re unable to check power moves and enforce boundaries, you also can’t assess people by the uber-important way they respond to your assertiveness

Key: this is something that I noticed: how people react to assertiveness or when there is a conflict between you both tells you a lot about them.

As for everything, you may overdo it as you learn to better calibrate.

Very important

Great article, thank you very much, it's helpful to see what I can improve on and where I currently am!

Cheers!

Hello Lucio,

Thank you very much for this. I could not agree more with you. I also agree that now is a good time for this. In your post the "what" in your thread and the "why" in the article are quite clear. I would like to add the definition as it's always helpful for me. So I'm taking the liberty to remind your definition from the dictionary:

Power Move: in social dynamics and in general terms, any action that affects the power dynamics of interaction.
In more lay terms and in more common parlance, it’s an action or verbal expression that abruptlyand sometimes unexpectedly changes the power dynamics of an interaction.
A well-placed power move can turn an individual who was previously defensive or under assault into the one with power.
Power moves are one-off actions, while power moves that repeat over time are “games”.

Covert power move: a power move that is delivered with a mix of friendliness, professionalism and, sometimes, even submissiveness, but that in truth empowers the agent and disempowers or shames the receiver.

Micro-power move: small scale, daily power moves that impact the power dynamics and social status. Many people fail to see and properly address the micro-power moves, which can leave them down in power and status.

I think it's also important to define the "how" as you did:

To flag a power move, it has to be an actual annoying, disrespectful or disempowering power move.

I think it's also important to remind ourselves that a forum is ultimately a place for exchanges in order to learn. The goal is not to be right nor to make another user look bad or show that he's wrong. We're here to learn. So I think it's good to also "flag" it in a respectful, civil and polite manner even power-protecting if needed/wanted. For instance:

Hey man,

In this post I think you pulled a power move here (quotes the power move). I think it pertains to the "credit-inflating" category" (example here). So when you wrote this it makes it look as you deserve more credit that you actually do. So what do you think?

And give the other the opportunity to reflect and answer. That's the straight talk part. So I think it's important to:

Quote the PM

Label it if possible from a category of PM

Explain in what way it is a power move

This in order for everyone to learn and shift the frame from: "how dare you do that!!!" to "hey man you did this and this is why it's not cool and could happen also to you as well in the real life". So from the fighting frame to the learning frame. Even if you think the person did it on purpose, you can still use the same tone.

I also think a thread where people can ask if something is a power move (from themselves, someone else on the forum or in life could be useful). I'll start it now as I do have several questions (which are not PMs!!!), including an example from this thread.

Through the recent exchanges I realized that there is a component of power awareness. And this is power self-awareness. I now see that there are components to power awareness: reading power dynamics of a group from a far, feeling/reading the power dynamics when one is in it, feeling/reading how one is affecting the power dynamics.

There is also one more risk that is there: that someone would call out a power move as a power move (correction power move: it puts the corrector as superior to the corrected). So by being polite and respectful when "calling it out" I think it mitigates this risk a bit.

What do you think?

Other comments:

In part, selfishly to save time and avoid longer escalations/explanations.

That is why in the recent instances, twice I let it go. I let it go to avoid long back-and-forth with a risk of them not being productive.

Submissive: hopes people will treat him well and suffers when they don’t. He feels the effects of the game of power, but somehow never considered that he’s losing because of the game of power. He fails to grasp that beyond the saying “people will treat you how you will let them treat you” lays the game of power that is the answer to many of his woes

I sometimes do this mistake as recently for instance.

Plus, when you’re unable to check power moves and enforce boundaries, you also can’t assess people by the uber-important way they respond to your assertiveness

Key: this is something that I noticed: how people react to assertiveness or when there is a conflict between you both tells you a lot about them.

As for everything, you may overdo it as you learn to better calibrate.

Very important

Great article, thank you very much, it's helpful to see what I can improve on and where I currently am!

Cheers!

Lucio Buffalmano has reacted to this post.

#3 · January 1, 2023, 9:51 am

In this:

To flag a power move, it has to be an actual annoying, disrespectful or disempowering power move.

I see levels. It's not the same that something is annoying or disrespectful. Annoying is less serious than disrespectful in my opinion.

Lucio Buffalmano has reacted to this post.

#4 · January 1, 2023, 10:56 am

I'm adding the conclusion:

I see levels. It's not the same that something is annoying or disrespectful. Annoying is less serious than disrespectful in my opinion. Therefore it does not deserve the same level of reaction in my opinion.

Lucio Buffalmano has reacted to this post.

#5 · January 2, 2023, 2:34 am

That's super awesome Lucio - really the capstone to the TPM pyramid.

Given the shape the world is in. I think every discipline should be pushing towards Human Nature 2.0 TINA - the alternatives are too horrible. Cue every post-apocalytpic show you're watching.

There was a post doing the rounds a few years back called 'the 7 stages of red pill rage'. Cruder but similar.

It pointed out that one of the reasons people get stuck at the power awareness/cynicism stage for too long is grief. They lived their whole lives in one worldview and now their comfortzone is gone.

Being power naïve and 'taking one for the team' is also pushed by all the mainstream media interests that want us to be obedient citizens/revenue units. Certainly when I started with RP and then TPM it felt paranoid and obsessive. The trouble with staying a docile herd member is its never just 'one'.

Lucio Buffalmano has reacted to this post.

#6 · January 2, 2023, 2:50 pm

Quote from John Freeman on January 1, 2023, 6:48 am

I think it's also important to define the "how" as you did:

To flag a power move, it has to be an actual annoying, disrespectful or disempowering power move.

I think it's also important to remind ourselves that a forum is ultimately a place for exchanges in order to learn. The goal is not to be right nor to make another user look bad or show that he's wrong. We're here to learn. So I think it's good to also "flag" it in a respectful, civil and polite manner even power-protecting if needed/wanted. For instance:

Hey man,

In this post I think you pulled a power move here (quotes the power move). I think it pertains to the "credit-inflating" category" (example here). So when you wrote this it makes it look as you deserve more credit that you actually do. So what do you think?

And give the other the opportunity to reflect and answer. That's the straight talk part. So I think it's important to:

Quote the PM

Label it if possible from a category of PM

Explain in what way it is a power move

This in order for everyone to learn and shift the frame from: "how dare you do that!!!" to "hey man you did this and this is why it's not cool and could happen also to you as well in the real life". So from the fighting frame to the learning frame. Even if you think the person did it on purpose, you can still use the same tone.

Yes, great one John, thank you and agreed.

And, ideally, the fixed, "best version" of how one could do better.

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#7 · January 2, 2023, 2:59 pm

Thank you, Transitioned (going to stick to the nickname since in one post you mentioned to wanted to keep a lower profile).

About this one:

Quote from Transitioned on January 2, 2023, 2:34 am

There was a post doing the rounds a few years back called 'the 7 stages of red pill rage'. Cruder but similar.

It pointed out that one of the reasons people get stuck at the power awareness/cynicism stage for too long is grief. They lived their whole lives in one worldview and now their comfortzone is gone.

Being power naïve and 'taking one for the team' is also pushed by all the mainstream media interests that want us to be obedient citizens/revenue units. Certainly when I started with RP and then TPM it felt paranoid and obsessive. The trouble with staying a docile herd member is its never just 'one'.

Yes, true, there is a lot of overlap and that can also be.

One reaction can indeed be to even refuse to play the game because "it's all rotten anyway, fuck that" -and the complaining feast and "perpetually outraged mode" begins-.

Check the forum guidelines for effective communication.
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