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Honesty in dating

#1 · December 7, 2023, 2:40 pm

Quote from John Freeman on December 7, 2023, 2:40 pm
Hello TPM community,
honesty is a very important value to me. As many things in life I learned to value it through lacking enough honesty long time ago now in the context of dating mostly. The reason were mainly due to poor education regarding this topic. I did not have very honest parents I think. Anyway I took responsibility for it and changed in all aspects.
For more background, I learned about the pick-up community and thought: "Yes, it's my choice to do whatever I want, I don't have to follow social norms". I was discovering my social conditioning and all the bullshit that comes with it. I was angry and rebelled about social norms, especially in terms of sexual behaviour.
For the current specific situation, I now see a nice and very pretty girl who's high quality enough and with whom I feel rather compatible. So I consider making her my GF. We already had unprotected sex and I think it's also part of the movement forward in the relationship in terms of modern conditions. I don't want to go to fast, but so far the challenges and her flaws are those of a gifted woman (neuroatypical/high potential in French) with manipulator parents (yes again and like me).
She's big on self-development and so far no red flags. I put boundaries with her after she tried to guilt trip me a couple of times and told her: "It's better to avoid guilt-tripping with me. I don't like it at all" and she apologized. So no big deal. She's 31 yo. Basically a good attractive girl I could see myself having a committed relationship with. With her I decided that at this stage of the relationship it's advanced enough (1.5 month) that I won't look for another woman currently and will be monogamous and exclusive. I did not tell her that's how I feel.
However, and this is my challenge. I stil have that dream to have my nordic blonde woman. Yes, it's a bit of an obsession and I'm ok with it. I decided I won't give up on that but I'm open to changing my mind.
So my dilemma is to be honest while still pursuing my own desires. I want every relationship with me to be win-win. I also understand Lucio's point that in dating there is a grey area in terms of conflict of interests (female desire for commitment vs male desire for variety). That it's normal to pursue our own desire and risk hurting someone. I won't lie to her and I won't lead her on. I will where this goes. Basically I'm between 2 situations:
I stay single until I find my "dream woman"
I don't stay single and risk hurting other women in the process that I'm not sure or don't want to commit to.
I know we already talked about this with Lucio and it helped me move a bit forward.
In my situation, as a child I've been basically shamed of being a boy by my mother (subtly and covertly) so I pedestalized and idealised women. Then I had my Don Juan phase who's supposed to be the revenge on an engulfing mother. I understand that and it's in the past. Now I try to find a balance between my interest and the woman's interests.
I'm aware it's a long post. Thanks if you read it so far. I'm curious to know you have any input/suggestions/perspectives on that kind of topic of honesty in dating while still having one's own interest in mind but not hurting a woman and not self-sabotaging in pursuit of a dream/desire.

Hello TPM community,

honesty is a very important value to me. As many things in life I learned to value it through lacking enough honesty long time ago now in the context of dating mostly. The reason were mainly due to poor education regarding this topic. I did not have very honest parents I think. Anyway I took responsibility for it and changed in all aspects.

For more background, I learned about the pick-up community and thought: "Yes, it's my choice to do whatever I want, I don't have to follow social norms". I was discovering my social conditioning and all the bullshit that comes with it. I was angry and rebelled about social norms, especially in terms of sexual behaviour.

For the current specific situation, I now see a nice and very pretty girl who's high quality enough and with whom I feel rather compatible. So I consider making her my GF. We already had unprotected sex and I think it's also part of the movement forward in the relationship in terms of modern conditions. I don't want to go to fast, but so far the challenges and her flaws are those of a gifted woman (neuroatypical/high potential in French) with manipulator parents (yes again and like me).

She's big on self-development and so far no red flags. I put boundaries with her after she tried to guilt trip me a couple of times and told her: "It's better to avoid guilt-tripping with me. I don't like it at all" and she apologized. So no big deal. She's 31 yo. Basically a good attractive girl I could see myself having a committed relationship with. With her I decided that at this stage of the relationship it's advanced enough (1.5 month) that I won't look for another woman currently and will be monogamous and exclusive. I did not tell her that's how I feel.

However, and this is my challenge. I stil have that dream to have my nordic blonde woman. Yes, it's a bit of an obsession and I'm ok with it. I decided I won't give up on that but I'm open to changing my mind.

So my dilemma is to be honest while still pursuing my own desires. I want every relationship with me to be win-win. I also understand Lucio's point that in dating there is a grey area in terms of conflict of interests (female desire for commitment vs male desire for variety). That it's normal to pursue our own desire and risk hurting someone. I won't lie to her and I won't lead her on. I will where this goes. Basically I'm between 2 situations:

I stay single until I find my "dream woman"
I don't stay single and risk hurting other women in the process that I'm not sure or don't want to commit to.

I know we already talked about this with Lucio and it helped me move a bit forward.

In my situation, as a child I've been basically shamed of being a boy by my mother (subtly and covertly) so I pedestalized and idealised women. Then I had my Don Juan phase who's supposed to be the revenge on an engulfing mother. I understand that and it's in the past. Now I try to find a balance between my interest and the woman's interests.

I'm aware it's a long post. Thanks if you read it so far. I'm curious to know you have any input/suggestions/perspectives on that kind of topic of honesty in dating while still having one's own interest in mind but not hurting a woman and not self-sabotaging in pursuit of a dream/desire.

Lucio Buffalmano, Jack and Power Duck have reacted to this post.

#2 · December 7, 2023, 5:50 pm

Tough question.

If you date her seriously but the plan in the future is to get with the dream women, it could feel like you are settling until you can upgrade.

Her being 31, if she wants kids, she probably doesn’t want to squander anytime in a relationship going nowhere. Do you want kids yourself ?

Choosing a mate with whom to be monogamous have a kid with can be tricky and you might have to make some concessions. It is difficult because you have to conciliate many traits.

-Is she pretty and sexy enough for my liking that I will be sexually attracted.

- Do we have matching libido

-Does she have good character traits: low neuroticism, moderate to high agreeableness, high consciousness.

- High IQ

- Good health

I put these, because if you want kids it is good to consider that all these traits are hereditary. IQ is 80% hereditary and character traits in average 50%.

Lucio Buffalmano, John Freeman and Power Duck have reacted to this post.

#3 · December 8, 2023, 12:31 pm

Yeah, tough call.

Just some random thoughts:

Honest with yourself first

I think that before "honesty with her" comes "honesty with you".

And you may need to think it over a bit before realizing what you really want, and what's best for you.

Children

As for her may be wanting children, it's likely to come up probably indeed.

I have a different view though than most guys in the red pill who see 30 as this big line. That's shifted a lot. Even naturally the real major drop for women fertility seems to be 35, so some years away (you probably know even better given the medical background).

And even just wanting to stick to biological children, there are more options such as egg freezing and surrogate -you know these things are becoming more popular when you hear "famous" extreme examples, see Naomi Campbell-.

But always depends more on the individual woman.

And this is more about you now.

Unprotected sex

Yeah, agree it's a major step towards closer relationships.

Some women even ask for it / make it happen to accelerate that process.

Not gonna add anything in terms of risks since you're probably far more knowledgeable there.

How to go from here

Could say a million things, all potentially going in very different directions.

So maybe better to say nothing in these cases rather than pick a random thing.

The best answer is probably waiting to be uncovered within you.
So you just gotta ask the right questions and think it over.

And some time to observe and test the relationship is also going to provide a lot of help deciding.

John Freeman, Jack and Power Duck have reacted to this post.

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#4 · December 9, 2023, 10:14 am

Hello Jack,

thank you very much for your answer!

Quote from Jack on December 7, 2023, 5:50 pm
Tough question.
If you date her seriously but the plan in the future is to get with the dream women, it could feel like you are settling until you can upgrade.

Right.

Her being 31, if she wants kids, she probably doesn’t want to squander anytime in a relationship going nowhere. Do you want kids yourself ?

That's what I don't know. So far I don't want them. For me it's too much of a time investment. Parents have time only to work and take care of children. So not sure yet. And yeah I do not want to waste a woman's precious fertility time. So that's also part of the conflict of interest and my concern with respecting her. I don't know yet if she wants kid but my intuition tells me she does.

Choosing a mate with whom to be monogamous have a kid with can be tricky and you might have to make some concessions. It is difficult because you have to conciliate many traits.
-Is she pretty and sexy enough for my liking that I will be sexually attracted.
- Do we have matching libido
-Does she have good character traits: low neuroticism, moderate to high agreeableness, high consciousness.
- High IQ
- Good health

Yes, she does have all of this. Except for neuroticism I would say rather medium from my observation

I put these, because if you want kids it is good to consider that all these traits are hereditary. IQ is 80% hereditary and character traits in average 50%.
https://youtube.com/shorts/EiTaFKsexNA?si=fUjsy3-SFns-Q78N

Thanks for the video, regarding her emotional availability, it's difficult for me to judge at the moment. But so far she seems emotionally stable.

Thanks a lot for your advice. It's helpful.

Jack and Power Duck have reacted to this post.

#5 · December 9, 2023, 11:03 am

Emotional stability not availability of course.

Power Duck has reacted to this post.

#6 · December 9, 2023, 1:29 pm

Quote from John Freeman on December 9, 2023, 1:29 pm
Hello Lucio,
thank you very much for your answer! Golden nuggets in there for the community as well in my eyes.
Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on December 8, 2023, 12:31 pm
Yeah, tough call.
Just some random thoughts:
Honest with yourself first
I think that before "honesty with her" comes "honesty with you".
And you may need to think it over a bit before realizing what you really want, and what's best for you.
Very true. That's one of the core issues. I definitely need some time to think about what I want and what's best for me. These can be two different things: we can desire things that are not in our best interests.
Children
As for her may be wanting children, it's likely to come up probably indeed.
I have a different view though than most guys in the red pill who see 30 as this big line. That's shifted a lot. Even naturally the real major drop for women fertility seems to be 35, so some years away (you probably know even better given the medical background).
And even just wanting to stick to biological children, there are more options such as egg freezing and surrogate -you know these things are becoming more popular when you hear "famous" extreme examples, see Naomi Campbell-.
But always depends more on the individual woman.
And this is more about you now.
Yes, right. I think that's one my issues: yes it's good for me to take into account her interest. I even think it says good things about my intentions towards her. I want to add value to her instead of taking. That being said, I think it's important to put my interests first or we end up in the doormat/nice guy situation. We end up in situations we did not want. The girl: we were so-so about her but decided to stay. The children: she wanted them so we wanted to please her. And we can end up unhappy and/or bitter. Also, there's also some magical thought in my reasoning. I'm comparing 2 situations:
Being with me for some time with no guarantee of LTR and/or children
Being with another man with guarantee of LTR and/or children
But that's not what's happening. Currently, I'm her best option. Being with me it's not like I'm preventing her to meet the man of her dreams. First, I possibly represent what she's looking for in a man. Second, there's no guarantee she would meet someone else in the time we would be together. So it's a bit of imagination/overthinking on my part. Being with me now she's getting value, otherwise she would not be. So it's her choice. My duty is to be honest with her in case she asks me what I want.
About fertility, in my experience we see many mothers in their early forties at the hospital giving birth. Thanks to your note, I looked up the numbers (wikipedia reliable enough: ballpark) if you guys are interested. So yeah 40 is still ok.
Unprotected sex
Yeah, agree it's a major step towards closer relationships.
Some women even ask for it / make it happen to accelerate that process.
Not gonna add anything in terms of risks since you're probably far more knowledgeable there.
Thank you, well I did some research last week. She is on IUD, so the chance of pregnancy over a year is 0.05%. To be compared with pill 0.3-8% and condom 2-15%. So it's the "safest" contraception device. My current philosophy is to remove the condom with a woman if worst case scenario she's getting pregnant and wants to keep the kid. If I would be "forced" in worst case scenario to stay with her and the child it's an acceptable worst outcome (in case that I would choose otherwise). That means that I find her suitable enough to be a long term partner/mother if things go in an unforeseen direction. Otherwise I don’t take the risk of removing the condom.
Also if she gets pregnant with such low probability, there's always the possibility to talk about terminating the pregnancy at an early stage. However, I still think this is human life and to be respected. I think that calling it a "murder" as some people say is over-interpretation. However, terminating a pregnancy is an undesirable outcome for the potential child. That is, the interest of the embryo is to survive. So it's taking a lot of value (potential life) from an embryo. It's not even about the question of "when an embryo becomes a human life". It's about considering the living thing that it is and considering its interest. So for me to avoid at all costs. Last resort solution. To be clear I think contraception and abortion are some of the most revolutionary technologies and are beneficial to humankind at large.
How to go from here
Could say a million things, all potentially going in very different directions.
So maybe better to say nothing in these cases rather than pick a random thing.
The best answer is probably waiting to be uncovered within you.
So you just gotta ask the right questions and think it over.
And some time to observe and test the relationship is also going to provide a lot of help deciding.
Thank you for being a friend. Your words (real but respectful) show you care. I don't find the right words so I'll just say thank you.
I agree with you 100%, there's a bit of overthinking on my side. But I think it's good I started the brainstorming process with your help and Jack's. So summarising, I understand and agree it's about:
Knowing what I want
Observing and testing the relationship
Finding the right questions (important point)
Thank you very much Lucio, your feed-back helps me to see more clear and come up with a plan.
I feel more confident going forward thanks to your feed-back, Jack, Lucio.

Hello Lucio,

thank you very much for your answer! Golden nuggets in there for the community as well in my eyes.

Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on December 8, 2023, 12:31 pm
Yeah, tough call.
Just some random thoughts:
Honest with yourself first
I think that before "honesty with her" comes "honesty with you".
And you may need to think it over a bit before realizing what you really want, and what's best for you.

Very true. That's one of the core issues. I definitely need some time to think about what I want and what's best for me. These can be two different things: we can desire things that are not in our best interests.

Children
As for her may be wanting children, it's likely to come up probably indeed.
I have a different view though than most guys in the red pill who see 30 as this big line. That's shifted a lot. Even naturally the real major drop for women fertility seems to be 35, so some years away (you probably know even better given the medical background).
And even just wanting to stick to biological children, there are more options such as egg freezing and surrogate -you know these things are becoming more popular when you hear "famous" extreme examples, see Naomi Campbell-.
But always depends more on the individual woman.
And this is more about you now.

Yes, right. I think that's one my issues: yes it's good for me to take into account her interest. I even think it says good things about my intentions towards her. I want to add value to her instead of taking. That being said, I think it's important to put my interests first or we end up in the doormat/nice guy situation. We end up in situations we did not want. The girl: we were so-so about her but decided to stay. The children: she wanted them so we wanted to please her. And we can end up unhappy and/or bitter. Also, there's also some magical thought in my reasoning. I'm comparing 2 situations:

Being with me for some time with no guarantee of LTR and/or children
Being with another man with guarantee of LTR and/or children

But that's not what's happening. Currently, I'm her best option. Being with me it's not like I'm preventing her to meet the man of her dreams. First, I possibly represent what she's looking for in a man. Second, there's no guarantee she would meet someone else in the time we would be together. So it's a bit of imagination/overthinking on my part. Being with me now she's getting value, otherwise she would not be. So it's her choice. My duty is to be honest with her in case she asks me what I want.

About fertility, in my experience we see many mothers in their early forties at the hospital giving birth. Thanks to your note, I looked up the numbers (wikipedia reliable enough: ballpark) if you guys are interested. So yeah 40 is still ok.

Unprotected sex
Yeah, agree it's a major step towards closer relationships.
Some women even ask for it / make it happen to accelerate that process.
Not gonna add anything in terms of risks since you're probably far more knowledgeable there.

Thank you, well I did some research last week. She is on IUD, so the chance of pregnancy over a year is 0.05%. To be compared with pill 0.3-8% and condom 2-15%. So it's the "safest" contraception device. My current philosophy is to remove the condom with a woman if worst case scenario she's getting pregnant and wants to keep the kid. If I would be "forced" in worst case scenario to stay with her and the child it's an acceptable worst outcome (in case that I would choose otherwise). That means that I find her suitable enough to be a long term partner/mother if things go in an unforeseen direction. Otherwise I don’t take the risk of removing the condom.

Also if she gets pregnant with such low probability, there's always the possibility to talk about terminating the pregnancy at an early stage. However, I still think this is human life and to be respected. I think that calling it a "murder" as some people say is over-interpretation. However, terminating a pregnancy is an undesirable outcome for the potential child. That is, the interest of the embryo is to survive. So it's taking a lot of value (potential life) from an embryo. It's not even about the question of "when an embryo becomes a human life". It's about considering the living thing that it is and considering its interest. So for me to avoid at all costs. Last resort solution. To be clear I think contraception and abortion are some of the most revolutionary technologies and are beneficial to humankind at large.

How to go from here
Could say a million things, all potentially going in very different directions.
So maybe better to say nothing in these cases rather than pick a random thing.
The best answer is probably waiting to be uncovered within you.
So you just gotta ask the right questions and think it over.
And some time to observe and test the relationship is also going to provide a lot of help deciding.

Thank you for being a friend. Your words (real but respectful) show you care. I don't find the right words so I'll just say thank you.

I agree with you 100%, there's a bit of overthinking on my side. But I think it's good I started the brainstorming process with your help and Jack's. So summarising, I understand and agree it's about:

Knowing what I want
Observing and testing the relationship
Finding the right questions (important point)

Thank you very much Lucio, your feed-back helps me to see more clear and come up with a plan.

I feel more confident going forward thanks to your feed-back, Jack, Lucio.

Lucio Buffalmano, Jack and 2 other users have reacted to this post.