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How (not) to deal with people badmouthing your friend to you
Hello guys,
As said in this post, here is an example when I was not assertive enough in the first place and the consequences of it. I'll do my best to be as clear and concise as possible:
Context
In my group of friends made of expats (most of them are French, 1 is Swedish), the Swedish GF from F. (French man) is quite the narcisstic-manipulator type, she's R. the Swedish GF.
As I was invited to their place a month ago R. and F. starts to badmouth B. (the French cancelling guy) who is absent. B. broke up with his GF and they start to talk about how he's a fuckboy anyway and how he cheated on his previous GF. There were other people present. I did not say anything and listened as I was curious.
Some time after this evening, I went to B.'s place to drink beers. We were only two. He spoke with me how he was surprised that Swedish R. did not talk to him since the breakup. He talks more about it. I start to feel uneasy and I tell him what has been said behind his back. He's shocked and disgusted. I learn that most if not all of it are lies. It took him a couple of days to recover from this betrayal. He was hurt a lot because he thought R. was a real friend. He tells me that he knows now I'm a real friend because I told him the truth.
During this talk I tell him that R. is not speaking anymore to D. (Romanian girl) because she went to Dubai and blabla (jealousy).
When he gets to talk to D. (Romanian girl) the next day, she's surprised that R. (Swedish GF) is angry with her. She was not aware of it.
B. goes to a party where R. (Swedish GF) is there (and nasty social climber A.) and he's afraid how it's going to go with R..
The next day he tells me there was no worries (AKA they got along well). I'm a bit surprised as he told me he was going to confront R. without telling her that I told him anything.
Summary
- R. (F's GF) and F. (my friend) badmouths B. about him being a fuckboy with some lies about him.
- I told B. about these lies and he got hurt a lot from the betrayal
- B. and I found out that basically R. badmouths everyone (narcissistic manipulator type)
What was valuable
- I could build greater trust with B.
- Intel: I learned through multiple observers about the extent of R.'s lies and manipulation
- Intel: I learned that B. was supposed to confront her but did not (cowardice?)
What should I have done better?
- When they started to talk about him during the evening I could have said: "Guys, I prefer to talk about something else." or defend B. However I was too curious for the info. However I told F another time in private that I thought that they were not friends for him telling his friend's secrets to stranger.
- Now I got tangled and gave all the power (info about the lies) to B.
- Now B. has the power to tell the others that I told him (even though it was not a secret), therefore I would lose F. and R's trust.
Conclusion
This is a clusterfuck, thanks to R.'s lies and manipulation. Now I feel I'm the one who's out of the group. I took some distance with F. because now I don't want to see him and R. as much as before. He's a good person but there is too much gossip, thanks to her.
R. and F. owe me a dinner because I kept their cats for a week (and they destroyed my apartment) but I'm delaying it. Because of my upcoming exam but also because I feel uneasy to have dinner with them, if they are such gossipers.
Anyway, I hope once again this was clear enough for you guys to learn anything from my social experience/experiments. If you have any comments or questions, please do. I'll clarify accordingly.
This thread was inspired by Lucio, because my relationship turned a bit into "Frenemy" with F because I feel a bit bitter towards him for sharing his friend's secrets (I already told him) and that he spread lies about his friend (did not confront him with that yet).
The problem is that F. is manipulated (gaslighted) by R. so he's her puppy dog and does not see through her manipulations. So I cannot be 100% upfront with him. I once was upfront with him about his (very dysfunctional) relationship with his GF (they fight all the time). I did as a friend because he was suffering. He interpreted it as me being nasty towards him.
Another option was not to have told B. anything (Machiavellian approach). I would have kept all the power. However, I was feeling uneasy hearing B. telling me all that and having heard something else from R. and F. For me as a friend I had to tell him the truth.
Also, you guys might ask: why is R. badmouthing everyone around her (she does)? It's social climbing. Pure and simple. What she did was to push B. down by crushing his reputation.
Of course she reveals little about herself to protect herself from gossiping. In social setting, she's mostly gathering information, badmouthing or judging other people or playing the judge role or boasting.
I am aware this is all Kindergarten stuff. However, this does happen to adults.
Of course, I'm doing my best to soar high. However, it takes time to soar for oneself and then sort out the turkeys from the eagles.
Cheers!
Basically, I went the Machiavellian way thinking I was going to have good intel.
However, it put me in the web of lies of a manipulator. The good thing is I could identify how much of a nasty person she is.
What I would do differently next time is to say: “It’s none of my business” and change topic.
I learned that being the recipient of gossiping, especially lies, is almost as bad as spreading it. Because you absorb the mental poison which twists your perspective on the target. It has the potential to degrade the relationship you have with the person being targeted.
So as long as this person is our friend, we should give them the benefit of the doubt and protect their reputation.
The only situation where it’s problematic is when the friend himself/herself is someone whom we should not have given our trust in the first place.
To know the difference is based on our experiences with this person. Has this person been dishonest so far? Has this person been disrespectful so far? Has this person has been playing games so far?
If not they deserve the benefit of the doubt.
Thank you for sharing this, John.
This is golden real-life stuff to learn how to navigate social circles (and get the most out of them, including better and honest relationships, which also requires skills and is not simply about "always being honest and candid", which is the naive approach).
Yes, you already said it: sitting and absorbing might not have been the best approach.
I'll add some further notes to flash that out:
1. Handling "behind's back badmouthing": ask probing questions, then either distance yourself, accept, or go "philosopher"
Probing questions are a way of sub-communicating that:
- You don't stand for free shit-throwing
- You're giving the badmouther a chance to prove she's not just making shit up to harm others
- You want to know more about the people you associate with
All eagle qualities.
If my friend cheated on his GF, I'd like to know that, because it also tells me more about who I decide to associate with.
And while I'd rather know it directly from my friend or without any nastiness and badmouthing attached to it, knowing is higher priority.
Avoiding any back-talk in my opinion is ineffective, naive, and can even be an empty virtue signaling trap (ie.; "I NEVER listen to gossip or backtalk, I'm not interested", which is a way of denying one's own nature and dark side).
You not associating with a potential asshole is more important than you not listening to any behind someone's back talk.
Example of probing question:
Her: he also cheated on her ex-girlfriend several times
You: wait, how do you know that though
That's a way of defending B., giving R. a chance to explain, and without breaking too much rapport.
If the accusations seem legit...
Then, keep probing and if she brings really good evidence, you can simply say "oh, I see, I didn't know that".
At that point, where and how you go depends on you, your relationships with the various people, and your values.
If I really liked B. and trusted him, might have for example said "well, who knows about their relationship, as far as we know she might have cheated on him or the relationship might have been on the rocks already".
Or:
You: I see, I see. Well, Im' not happy to hear that to be honest because I like B. and I think he's a good guy. Cheating is not cool though, so, well... (shrug your shoulder as if to say "I said my piece, there isn't much more I can add, no mudslinging and no more gossiping behind his back from me)
If the accusations seem groundless...
If they bring no real evidence for all the accusations, then you can go philosopher.
For example:
You: yeah, look, people say a lot of things and who knows, as far as I know, it might even be true <---- this says "you're making this shit up, but in a socially smooth way that saves just enough of her face and preserves rapport
But I don't know, and I gotta say I overall like B. and he seems a good guy to me
Now on changing topics:
How to change topic eagle way: high-power and smoothly
If they keep on badmouthing, then either:
- Make off-topic comments, jokes, or go off on tangents
Your goal is to move from badmouthing to something else.
But without breaking rapport.
See if the group follows, see if R. is willing to let go.
If they keep on coming back to badmouthing, then it's a bad sign but also good intel for you (who is going back to badmouthing, who can't let it go?).
Just a random example of some off-topic and tangent:
Her: so B. cheated with this drunk woman he met at Maxim club
You: Maxim? Man, that place has turned terrible. It used to be great, but I've been there last week, it was empty. You guys been there recently?
Such as: you fly higher and take the group with you, without breaking rapport and while adding value.
Social finessing.
- Start a new topic during a lull
Fidged a bit around, look into space, take your phone... You're sub-communicating you're not interested and they're losing you.
Then whenever there is a lull, you jump back with a new topic.
See what happens.
- Go assertive to directly and openly end that topic, and open a new page
You can do this if you're very high power and high status.
For example:
You: alright guys, so we talked about B. now, how about we talk about something else
The more in charge you are, the more direct you can be, even saying "I'm tired of talking about B." or "I don't like talking poorly of people who are not here" or, even better "B. is my friend, so I don't feel good to hear this stuff about him".
Be cautious with this if you're new, if you don't have yet enough power, and if the people are very likely to take offense and/or start plotting against you.
But whenever you can afford it, it's one of my favorites -and one of the perks of high status and power: you dictate the rules (and values) of the group and interactions-.
PRO TIP: Generally avoid sitting silent through the badmouthing shitstorm
However, this is important:
I believe that, generally speaking, you don't want to stay completely silent when they're badmouthing other people from the group, especially if they're your friends.
Or you self-frame as the one who is there to listen and passively gossip, gather intel, but without exposing himself.
Plus, you're not defending a common friend (and the closer that other person is to you, the more you want to avoid sitting silent. Exceptions always apply of course, as for everything. At work, I may sit silent. On 1:1, it's different rules. And with bosses, you may want to sit silent. Etc. etc.)
It's not a good self-frame.
Plus, when you stay silent when others badmouth you'll be the #1 suspect whenever anything about the badmouthing session comes out.
Such as, if B. now confronts R. or talks about R. about anyone, they'll all think of you to have spoken.
I got some more points for later as well, in successive posts.
I appreciate a lot your helpful answer. Thank you very much. I read carefully this post which is worth being internalised.
As you can see, the more socialising I have under my belt, the more I get into new situations. I would have not been exposed to these situations if not for this social circle. So this social circle is full of interesting experiences.
R. in this situation is a bad apple. She's spoiling the circle. But I cannot remove her because she's F.'s GF. He even wants to buy a house with her and have children with her. Be my guest!
About using (positive) dominance to steer away from the topic. I like this option. I was at their place for a dinner, so I would have to have gone smoother of course. But when on my territory, of course it's an option.
Thanks also for warning me about the naive approach of "I don't gossip". Yes, the evolutionary role of gossiping is to warn us about a harmful individual in the group without the need to have been harmed ourselves.
Also, about how much of a gossiper R. is. After B. she started to talk about D (Romanian girl). I listened to and actually used philosopher frames to defend her from the badmouth. They were judging her life choices. After a while I got bored and moved to the conversation on my left.
I would estimate that they badmouthed D. for 30 to 45 min, together with another friend. A whole conversation only to tell someone how bad her friend is. That's how bad it is.
About finding out if the accusations seems legit
In this case I did not enquire about the accusations, so this is hypothetical. However, they were lies. So it's quite challenging to know if someone is telling the truth. For instance, if the person tells me: "He told me so", then it seems legit and makes for a strong lie.
More context about my thought process in the moment: it seemed like they were telling me this first-hand. They were supposed to be close friends. The way it felt the first time, was more that they were sharing dark secrets about a friend. So it felt more like a betrayal than a smear campaign (in this case it was both).
Also as I was at their place, I felt like I had to follow their frame. As you said, there were alternative smooth ways to propose another frame.
So in this case on the surface, the accusations seemed legit.
About being suspect #1
Yes, that is sure. I asked B. not to tell anyone that I told him. To him it makes me look like I'm on his side. However, it also makes me look like the rat. Even more if he speaks out.
