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How to answer to an application rejection

#1 · September 6, 2023, 10:28 am

Quote from John Freeman on September 6, 2023, 10:28 am
Hello TPM community,
some background: as you know I’m currently working as an attending physician in pediatrics in a regional hospital.
I decided I want to work in hospitals even if it’s harder than office private practice. It’s more interesting and challenging. One works some week-ends and night shifts. So this is the main downside. For the moment being an employee is fine for me as the upside beat the downsides.
My goal is to work in a pediatric emergency department or in a regional hospital. To do so I need to improve my skills I think.
So I applied to another university hospital in: intensive care, emergency and neonatology. These are challenging but also where there is a lot of learning potential. I chose the other university hospital as the one I trained is way too dysfunctional whereas this one has a good reputation.
I received a negative answer from the professor and his executive staff at the emergency department. That’s where I want to work the most since I prefer emergency.
His answer, with the staff physicians (executive team) in copy:
Dear Sir,
this is with regret that I inform you that after studying all the applications sent to us for this position in 2024 your application has not been accepted.
We wish you success in your career, …
So I don’t know why they rejected my application. They did not even offer me an interview.
So I would like to know if I can ask for advice to improve my application and/or if I can offer them to start in a lower role (resident) like:
Dear Sir,
thank you for your answer and considering my application. I also regret it (re-empower myself but it’s a bit of a power move and these people are quite sensitive to it so I consider not writing it).
If you desire so I am open to any feed-back on my application in order to improve it. Since we never worked together yet if you feel like it’s more fitting to apply as a resident in 2024 I would be glad to know. In any case please free to ignore this message since I know you are quite busy (re-empower him).
Also should I cc the other staff physicians? If I do it puts a bit of pressure on him to answer me and it’s a bit disempowering. However it shows determination and I could gain the respect of other members. I could also look pushy and desperate which is low power (like I don’t have any other options).
Any feed-back would be helpful. Also I think it’s a common situation so it’s also good for the community to know how to answer those.
My opinion is that I’m lowering my “price tag”. The thing is that this university hospital promotes people from their own hospital. It’s very difficult to enter it from the outside. So I need to have a “foot in the door” hence me applying to different departments and proposing to work as a resident first. I only know 2 people who entered this hospital from the one I trained in.

Hello TPM community,

some background: as you know I’m currently working as an attending physician in pediatrics in a regional hospital.

I decided I want to work in hospitals even if it’s harder than office private practice. It’s more interesting and challenging. One works some week-ends and night shifts. So this is the main downside. For the moment being an employee is fine for me as the upside beat the downsides.

My goal is to work in a pediatric emergency department or in a regional hospital. To do so I need to improve my skills I think.

So I applied to another university hospital in: intensive care, emergency and neonatology. These are challenging but also where there is a lot of learning potential. I chose the other university hospital as the one I trained is way too dysfunctional whereas this one has a good reputation.

I received a negative answer from the professor and his executive staff at the emergency department. That’s where I want to work the most since I prefer emergency.

His answer, with the staff physicians (executive team) in copy:

Dear Sir,
this is with regret that I inform you that after studying all the applications sent to us for this position in 2024 your application has not been accepted.
We wish you success in your career, …

So I don’t know why they rejected my application. They did not even offer me an interview.

So I would like to know if I can ask for advice to improve my application and/or if I can offer them to start in a lower role (resident) like:

Dear Sir,
thank you for your answer and considering my application. I also regret it (re-empower myself but it’s a bit of a power move and these people are quite sensitive to it so I consider not writing it).
If you desire so I am open to any feed-back on my application in order to improve it. Since we never worked together yet if you feel like it’s more fitting to apply as a resident in 2024 I would be glad to know. In any case please free to ignore this message since I know you are quite busy (re-empower him).

Also should I cc the other staff physicians? If I do it puts a bit of pressure on him to answer me and it’s a bit disempowering. However it shows determination and I could gain the respect of other members. I could also look pushy and desperate which is low power (like I don’t have any other options).

Any feed-back would be helpful. Also I think it’s a common situation so it’s also good for the community to know how to answer those.

My opinion is that I’m lowering my “price tag”. The thing is that this university hospital promotes people from their own hospital. It’s very difficult to enter it from the outside. So I need to have a “foot in the door” hence me applying to different departments and proposing to work as a resident first. I only know 2 people who entered this hospital from the one I trained in.

Power Duck has reacted to this post.

#2 · September 6, 2023, 11:34 am

Quick feedback:

I think the odds you'll receive anything after that are close to zero.

So from an effectiveness point of view, better not.

And in my opinion, the script is incongruent with the ask.

There are times and places for the "up to you" and power protecting formats, but there's something that tells me "not in this case".

Not exactly sure why to be honest.

I think it may be the act of asking and pursuing are high-power/assertive, but if the wording is too power-protecting, it feels sneaky to me.
Like "I'm asking, but also hiding my ask" and "do let me know, but also up to you".

I'd be more straight with the ask.

And the "since we never worked together" feels like a power move to me.
As in "you don't know me, how can you assess me", which caged in all he power protection also may feel sneaky.

So what's the alternative?

Personally, I wouldn't yet accept the "no" and attempt at least once more to get an interview.

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#3 · September 6, 2023, 3:42 pm

Thank you very much Lucio!

You prevented me from making a mistake that could have been costly.

I’ll answer more in details when I am at my hostel.

Off-topic

I thought that since we’re both driving in England maybe we could meet up for a beer. I’m in Keswick right now. All good if you prefer to enjoy your trip alone.

/Off-topic

Lucio Buffalmano, Roberto and Power Duck have reacted to this post.

#4 · September 6, 2023, 7:17 pm

Cheers, John!

OFF-TOPIC

Keswick, wow man, I had to Google that :).

I was there for some projects more than pleasure, but more like outside the London area near Cambridge.

OFF-TOPIC

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#5 · September 7, 2023, 10:03 pm

Quote from John Freeman on September 7, 2023, 10:03 pm
Finally have some network, sorry for the delay.
Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on September 6, 2023, 11:34 am
Quick feedback:
I think the odds you'll receive anything after that are close to zero.
I agree.
So from an effectiveness point of view, better not.
And in my opinion, the script is incongruent with the ask.
There are times and places for the "up to you" and power protecting formats, but there's something that tells me "not in this case".
Not exactly sure why to be honest.
I think it may be the act of asking and pursuing are high-power/assertive, but if the wording is too power-protecting, it feels sneaky to me.
Like "I'm asking, but also hiding my ask" and "do let me know, but also up to you".
Alright, got it thanks! I can totally see that re-reading my message.
I'd be more straight with the ask.
So if you think there is low chance of an answer I won't ask. He's a professor so it's too much asking of him since we don't really have rapport. To him I'm a nobody. Why would he give time and advice to a nobody? Especially someone he decided not to hire. Nope. So thanks.
I agree though: if there would be more rapport and more connection I would do as you said and ask more straight forwar. In this case I think there's not enough of a relationship for me to do so and I don't want to burn bridges by asking too much too soon. I want to keep the door open in case in the future. I don't want to be remembered as the "guy who could not take no for an answer".
And the "since we never worked together" feels like a power move to me.
As in "you don't know me, how can you assess me", which caged in all he power protection also may feel sneaky.
Yes I can totally see that it looks like this. To better explain this sentence I have to give a little more background. From my observation, in Switzerland people are very risk-adverse. And in medicine sometimes they want to see how you work first before hiring you for a responsibility position. For most of the people who are working as attending physicians in the emergency department, they first worked as a resident there. So if I translate my sentence in what I actually meant:
"I understand that you haven't observed me working in your ED since I did not work there as a resident. To you, giving me the responsibility of being an attending might sound like a big risk regarding the little information you have about me. So I propose you to work first as a resident for 6 months (usual deal) and if you like what you see to consider me for a promotion as an attending next. "
I did not mean "how could you reject me without assessing me". My intention was to empathize with the risk he's taking and adapt my offer if they think the risk is too high. They hire 90+ % of their attendings from their own residents. So coming from the outside feels like a big risk to them from my understanding.
So what's the alternative?
Personally, I wouldn't yet accept the "no" and attempt at least once more to get an interview.
Yes, I think this is great advice. In other circumstances I would definitely do this. In this case, with the swiss mentality especially in medicine I'm afraid that I would be labeled as "insubordinate" or any negative label. Once the boss has said something it is definitive I think (this guy is high ego high mach). However I agree that I can still try in the future again in a year. I have an upcoming interview for intensive care as a resident (I never did intensive care so cannot be an attending, I have to start from the bottom) on the 6th of October so maybe another door will open. Your message got me thinking a lot though and I turned it around and around without figuring how to make this work in my current context.
OFF-TOPIC
All good, thanks for your answer! Since we talked about Keswick I recommend you guys the Lake district region in England if you like nature and hiking. Gorgeous!
OFF-TOPIC

Finally have some network, sorry for the delay.

Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on September 6, 2023, 11:34 am
Quick feedback:
I think the odds you'll receive anything after that are close to zero.

I agree.

So from an effectiveness point of view, better not.
And in my opinion, the script is incongruent with the ask.
There are times and places for the "up to you" and power protecting formats, but there's something that tells me "not in this case".
Not exactly sure why to be honest.
I think it may be the act of asking and pursuing are high-power/assertive, but if the wording is too power-protecting, it feels sneaky to me.
Like "I'm asking, but also hiding my ask" and "do let me know, but also up to you".

Alright, got it thanks! I can totally see that re-reading my message.

I'd be more straight with the ask.

So if you think there is low chance of an answer I won't ask. He's a professor so it's too much asking of him since we don't really have rapport. To him I'm a nobody. Why would he give time and advice to a nobody? Especially someone he decided not to hire. Nope. So thanks.

I agree though: if there would be more rapport and more connection I would do as you said and ask more straight forwar. In this case I think there's not enough of a relationship for me to do so and I don't want to burn bridges by asking too much too soon. I want to keep the door open in case in the future. I don't want to be remembered as the "guy who could not take no for an answer".

And the "since we never worked together" feels like a power move to me.
As in "you don't know me, how can you assess me", which caged in all he power protection also may feel sneaky.

Yes I can totally see that it looks like this. To better explain this sentence I have to give a little more background. From my observation, in Switzerland people are very risk-adverse. And in medicine sometimes they want to see how you work first before hiring you for a responsibility position. For most of the people who are working as attending physicians in the emergency department, they first worked as a resident there. So if I translate my sentence in what I actually meant:

"I understand that you haven't observed me working in your ED since I did not work there as a resident. To you, giving me the responsibility of being an attending might sound like a big risk regarding the little information you have about me. So I propose you to work first as a resident for 6 months (usual deal) and if you like what you see to consider me for a promotion as an attending next. "

I did not mean "how could you reject me without assessing me". My intention was to empathize with the risk he's taking and adapt my offer if they think the risk is too high. They hire 90+ % of their attendings from their own residents. So coming from the outside feels like a big risk to them from my understanding.

So what's the alternative?
Personally, I wouldn't yet accept the "no" and attempt at least once more to get an interview.

Yes, I think this is great advice. In other circumstances I would definitely do this. In this case, with the swiss mentality especially in medicine I'm afraid that I would be labeled as "insubordinate" or any negative label. Once the boss has said something it is definitive I think (this guy is high ego high mach). However I agree that I can still try in the future again in a year. I have an upcoming interview for intensive care as a resident (I never did intensive care so cannot be an attending, I have to start from the bottom) on the 6th of October so maybe another door will open. Your message got me thinking a lot though and I turned it around and around without figuring how to make this work in my current context.

OFF-TOPIC

All good, thanks for your answer! Since we talked about Keswick I recommend you guys the Lake district region in England if you like nature and hiking. Gorgeous!

OFF-TOPIC

Lucio Buffalmano has reacted to this post.