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How to avoid being disempowered as a winner

#1 · July 15, 2023, 8:57 am

Quote from Gguwad on July 15, 2023, 8:57 am
We had a team party that had mechanical bull riding and mini golf and with a bit of luck and a lot of grit I managed to win both.
Now, winner always gets an extra attention and people say things like compliments like "Wow, you're good" and now you either have an option of saying "nah nah, I was just lucky" or "Yeah, but that's just a game, who cares" which I used in the past but is a show of weak character and disempowers the ones that compliment you.
The simple and easy answer seems to be "Thank you" and appreciate the compliments yet when you take the win as a win, many will be quick to try to take you off your horse.
For example by saying that you weren't doing it quite correctly so you got the advantage, by saying "Oh, you just have to win everything, don't you?", "Please don't play, you're too good", "The way you focus like it's a life and death scenario".
That's why there is this desire to lighten your win, so people don't go thinking you are full of yourself and try to disempower you, also, they start to ask you questions like "How did you pull it off?", "Man, do you have any tips?".
And even though they ask for those tips, if you say stuff like "I got it in me" or even give "I thought *this and that* tactic works very well" they look around with smiles like I am too full of myself, like they expect me to say "no no, man you also did good, I was just lucky".
So I wonder, what are the dynamics of winning, does winning in games like bowling and beat everyone else give you any status in a company that has nothing to do with bowling for example? Should you only take the wins that truly matter to our career like completing a project and take the other wins with humbleness?
But it looks like you can't avoid it, if you win people will attack you one way or another, regardless if win matters or not.
I think the best way is to take the win, say you are passionate about giving your all if you try something, also share credit like "Man, the tactic you shared really gave me the edge" or "Thanks, you were close second weren't you? A formidable opponent". So you take the win fully while also sharing the spotlight with others.
To those that try to make the win illegitimate, you defend, ideally with as little effort as possible but still.
And also not caring, have a mindset that when someone wins, you will give them credit and if you win, you can without worry take credit too. If some people have problems with that, it's their problem.
But I really wonder, how much of an effect do you have on how others perceive you if you win a game of mini golf for example, in theory it doesn't matter in the least, how would the CEO that played the tournament ( and wanted to win ) and was on fifth place look at someone got a first. Will it be resentment, respect, not caring at all?
If you have ideas or thoughts feel free to share it.

We had a team party that had mechanical bull riding and mini golf and with a bit of luck and a lot of grit I managed to win both.

Now, winner always gets an extra attention and people say things like compliments like "Wow, you're good" and now you either have an option of saying "nah nah, I was just lucky" or "Yeah, but that's just a game, who cares" which I used in the past but is a show of weak character and disempowers the ones that compliment you.
The simple and easy answer seems to be "Thank you" and appreciate the compliments yet when you take the win as a win, many will be quick to try to take you off your horse.
For example by saying that you weren't doing it quite correctly so you got the advantage, by saying "Oh, you just have to win everything, don't you?", "Please don't play, you're too good", "The way you focus like it's a life and death scenario".

That's why there is this desire to lighten your win, so people don't go thinking you are full of yourself and try to disempower you, also, they start to ask you questions like "How did you pull it off?", "Man, do you have any tips?".
And even though they ask for those tips, if you say stuff like "I got it in me" or even give "I thought *this and that* tactic works very well" they look around with smiles like I am too full of myself, like they expect me to say "no no, man you also did good, I was just lucky".

So I wonder, what are the dynamics of winning, does winning in games like bowling and beat everyone else give you any status in a company that has nothing to do with bowling for example? Should you only take the wins that truly matter to our career like completing a project and take the other wins with humbleness?
But it looks like you can't avoid it, if you win people will attack you one way or another, regardless if win matters or not.

I think the best way is to take the win, say you are passionate about giving your all if you try something, also share credit like "Man, the tactic you shared really gave me the edge" or "Thanks, you were close second weren't you? A formidable opponent". So you take the win fully while also sharing the spotlight with others.

To those that try to make the win illegitimate, you defend, ideally with as little effort as possible but still.
And also not caring, have a mindset that when someone wins, you will give them credit and if you win, you can without worry take credit too. If some people have problems with that, it's their problem.

But I really wonder, how much of an effect do you have on how others perceive you if you win a game of mini golf for example, in theory it doesn't matter in the least, how would the CEO that played the tournament ( and wanted to win ) and was on fifth place look at someone got a first. Will it be resentment, respect, not caring at all?
If you have ideas or thoughts feel free to share it.

John Freeman and B have reacted to this post.

#2 · July 15, 2023, 10:30 am

Hello DGX37,

If people congratulate you yes I would just reply “thank you”.

My default way after a game is to shake hands and smile with all players saying “well played” in French or would be “good game” in English maybe. Whether I won or lost.

This communicates that it was only a game and that it was enjoyable to play it. Then it’s always good to debrief but in an analytical way. “Like when you did this I think… “. To share openly opinions about the game and not make it a status things.

Also people will make remarks if they feel that you’re hell bent on winning. So one can say something like: “yeah I like to focus” or “the game is about winning isn’t it?” or “yeah I did my best to focus” or even admitting: “hahahah yeah I like to win”.

So I think it’s not about making too much of the game in one’s own mind first. Yes it’s good to do the best to win a game but not to make too much out of winning or losing. The goal of a game in the end is to have fun. For some people they have fun in trying to win some only in spending time with friends. More or less competitive. Also being too aggressive to win at a game with friends could seem or reveal an insecurity about one’s status: “I can only function as the top dog/alpha in the group”. And people could feel like it’s a way of social climbing and/or to dominate them. Not saying it’s the case but it could be people’s perceptions. Hence their reaction communicating: “why do you want to win so hard? Do you want to be above us?”. This also could be an ostracizing power move from sore losers.

So in short I would win with humility: shake hands congratulate and thank everyone for playing and be thankful when people congratulate you.

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#3 · July 15, 2023, 12:51 pm

Quote from John Freeman on July 15, 2023, 10:30 am
So in short I would win with humility: shake hands congratulate and thank everyone for playing and be thankful when people congratulate you.

I see, confident enough to take the win as yours but humble enough to not give much attention to it. Also admitting you like to win, hate them or love them, there's respect for those that are going for the win and manage to do it. Great mindset!

This is especially if your win is visible, you gain nothing by spouting how great you are, because people already see the results, just like in one of the lessons, it's then better to share the spotlight with others and not give it much thought.

But if the win is important ( job done well ) and it's not visible one should not care at all and brag without worry, because people thinking you are an bragging asshole is still better than nobody, not the same situation but still an idea that came to mind.

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#4 · July 15, 2023, 1:20 pm

Quote from B on July 15, 2023, 1:20 pm
Hi DGX37,
it's a really interesting thread.
My thoughts are these.
In answering, I assume the setting was with work colleagues and higher-ups, not with friends, since you mention "team party".
I also assume you are referring to reactions (mostly) from higher-ups, since your last question is about a CEO coming fifth place in a golf game.
The general power/status hierarchy of the group predicts and dictates these kind of "pushback on the winner" moves more than anything else

What I mean is that, barring unaware disempowering behaviors by the winner against others, these kinds of push-backs are very common when one is (or is considered) lower status than others.
If the setting you mentioned in your post was a work setting, push-back on the win by higher-ups (relative to the winner of the "game") is almost guaranteed.
The dynamic has been discussed other times on this forum, see for examples the thread on the Carlsen-Niemann chess dispute (where the champion, Carlsen, unexpectedly lost to a newcomer and accused him of cheating), and the Osaka-Williams dispute as to tennis.
In both these cases we have a very high-status player who is outwitted and heavily disempowered by losing to a "young newcomer".
I also encountered similar dynamics (if anything, more nasty) many times in my work, both when I was an associate in a big law firm, and when I started out on my own.
Consider that at the time my general behavior and demeanor was very submissive, I would say in the top 1% possible submissiveness (very low-power/high-warmth): well, when I won legal cases against older, more experienced lawyers, they reacted very angrily, bordering on abuse, and tried to win back the situation by using any means they could.
Conversely, this kind of push-back diminished more and more the more I adopted the general behaviors that TPM and PU describe as "high-power/high-warmth".
Strategies on how to address it
Aside from implementing "high-power/high-warmth" behavior in general, my thoughts are these:
always let the higher-ups at work (or clients in your business) win the "side game"
No point in playing the "side game" (ie the social situation fun-game) as if it mattered.
At work, or as an external consultant, you don't want to win "side games" with your higher-ups or clients.
You do want to give the impression you know how to play, but then you want to strategically "lose" at the last moment to let them maintain their "status", and to let them associate you to positive feelings.
if the game is not a side game, but a real contest, do win
If you have a lawsuit against another older lawyer, do win.
No point in losing on substantial matters.
In this case, the pushback by the counterparty matters less than you winning.
If you won, or had to win:
if the pushback is from a higher-up or client, do downplay your win, and verbally magnify the (higher-up or client) loser's status
Here you want to diminish the likelihood of angry, manipulative or abusive pushbacks from higher-ups or clients by giving them public verbal recognition of their high-status.
The reason is that this is the only behavior that makes sense from a "long-term game" point of view.
You don't want to jeopardize your career or business to hold on to your "newly won status".
This is for several reasons:
people are not going to give you much status for a "sudden win" anyway
It's only repeated wins that give public status.
your career or business is more important
Let them have their satisfaction, while you win where it counts.
the pushback can be very nasty
See the Carlsen pushback to confirm the effects on Niemann: many other public figures sided against Niemann on the basis of an unfounded accusation by Carlsen, just because he was the world champion at the time.
Interesting to note that Carlsen later stopped playing at world chess championships (most likely because he was very aware he was starting to lose against his opponents), but he chose to drop out rather than lose, and motivated his choice by mentioning he had "lost interest in chess".
Also very interesting to see what Osaka did in contrast to Niemann: she wrote to Williams a public letter in which she did exactly the right thing, ie she elevated Williams and downplayed her win (which was publicly visible anyways).
in contrast, if the after-win pushback is by a colleague in competition with you, do check his move and affirm your win (ideally by framing the power mover as "too focused on who wins and who loses", and yourself as "interested in just enjoying the social situation")
In this case, since the relative status of you and your colleague is equal, you do want to subcommunicate you are higher-power than him, to avoid that he self-frames as higher power than you in front of everyone.
John's answer deals with this beautifully.

Hi DGX37,

it's a really interesting thread.

My thoughts are these.

In answering, I assume the setting was with work colleagues and higher-ups, not with friends, since you mention "team party".

I also assume you are referring to reactions (mostly) from higher-ups, since your last question is about a CEO coming fifth place in a golf game.

The general power/status hierarchy of the group predicts and dictates these kind of "pushback on the winner" moves more than anything else

What I mean is that, barring unaware disempowering behaviors by the winner against others, these kinds of push-backs are very common when one is (or is considered) lower status than others.

If the setting you mentioned in your post was a work setting, push-back on the win by higher-ups (relative to the winner of the "game") is almost guaranteed.

The dynamic has been discussed other times on this forum, see for examples the thread on the Carlsen-Niemann chess dispute (where the champion, Carlsen, unexpectedly lost to a newcomer and accused him of cheating), and the Osaka-Williams dispute as to tennis.

In both these cases we have a very high-status player who is outwitted and heavily disempowered by losing to a "young newcomer".

I also encountered similar dynamics (if anything, more nasty) many times in my work, both when I was an associate in a big law firm, and when I started out on my own.

Consider that at the time my general behavior and demeanor was very submissive, I would say in the top 1% possible submissiveness (very low-power/high-warmth): well, when I won legal cases against older, more experienced lawyers, they reacted very angrily, bordering on abuse, and tried to win back the situation by using any means they could.

Conversely, this kind of push-back diminished more and more the more I adopted the general behaviors that TPM and PU describe as "high-power/high-warmth".

Strategies on how to address it

Aside from implementing "high-power/high-warmth" behavior in general, my thoughts are these:

always let the higher-ups at work (or clients in your business) win the "side game"

No point in playing the "side game" (ie the social situation fun-game) as if it mattered.

At work, or as an external consultant, you don't want to win "side games" with your higher-ups or clients.

You do want to give the impression you know how to play, but then you want to strategically "lose" at the last moment to let them maintain their "status", and to let them associate you to positive feelings.

if the game is not a side game, but a real contest, do win

If you have a lawsuit against another older lawyer, do win.

No point in losing on substantial matters.

In this case, the pushback by the counterparty matters less than you winning.

If you won, or had to win:

if the pushback is from a higher-up or client, do downplay your win, and verbally magnify the (higher-up or client) loser's status

Here you want to diminish the likelihood of angry, manipulative or abusive pushbacks from higher-ups or clients by giving them public verbal recognition of their high-status.

The reason is that this is the only behavior that makes sense from a "long-term game" point of view.

You don't want to jeopardize your career or business to hold on to your "newly won status".

This is for several reasons:

people are not going to give you much status for a "sudden win" anyway

It's only repeated wins that give public status.

your career or business is more important

Let them have their satisfaction, while you win where it counts.

the pushback can be very nasty

See the Carlsen pushback to confirm the effects on Niemann: many other public figures sided against Niemann on the basis of an unfounded accusation by Carlsen, just because he was the world champion at the time.

Interesting to note that Carlsen later stopped playing at world chess championships (most likely because he was very aware he was starting to lose against his opponents), but he chose to drop out rather than lose, and motivated his choice by mentioning he had "lost interest in chess".

Also very interesting to see what Osaka did in contrast to Niemann: she wrote to Williams a public letter in which she did exactly the right thing, ie she elevated Williams and downplayed her win (which was publicly visible anyways).

in contrast, if the after-win pushback is by a colleague in competition with you, do check his move and affirm your win (ideally by framing the power mover as "too focused on who wins and who loses", and yourself as "interested in just enjoying the social situation")

In this case, since the relative status of you and your colleague is equal, you do want to subcommunicate you are higher-power than him, to avoid that he self-frames as higher power than you in front of everyone.

John's answer deals with this beautifully.

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#5 · July 15, 2023, 4:49 pm

Yaeh, great topic indeed.

Bel pretty much summed the general solid, higher level strategies.

And agree with John on winning and playing hard during the game, but then making less of the game afterward (even if you need to play that up. I personally always thought it was great I had won whatever meaningless competition).

Just a few notes I'd add:

Play to win, beat your equals, and show a reputation for a guy who goes all out for what he wants can be good, especially in more competitive work environments (all the top guys are also very competitive anyway. I remember a book where Richard Fuld, Lehman Brother's CEO was hurling insults for a meaningless small climb/hike).

My general approach was either to play to win, or to avoid games altogether and be the guy who stands on the side having a good time, or networks and talks to the women (the majority of the women have no interest in the game anyway and many men make the mistke of thinking that winning the side gig will help them romantically, but it rarely does. The guy who doesn't play and plays to date gets the girl is a lot more likely to win there).

The guy on the side is potentially even better because to compete and be average is a loss anyway.
So you either compete and have a good shot of winning, or be the cool guy on the sideline.

If you played against the CEO or anyone who can make or help your carer, I'd be more careful.

Some men will respect an opponent who gives his all, beats them , and then shows sportsmanship (so, in case, you always end with congratulation and "well played").

But some others may take it more personally.

Usually, you can tell between the two.

Of course, a lot better to play with the people who can help your career.

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#6 · July 16, 2023, 7:39 am

Quote from Gguwad on July 16, 2023, 7:39 am
Quote from Bel on July 15, 2023, 1:20 pm
Strategies on how to address it
Aside from implementing "high-power/high-warmth" behavior in general, my thoughts are these:
always let the higher-ups at work (or clients in your business) win the "side game"
No point in playing the "side game" (ie the social situation fun-game) as if it mattered.
I love your answers, they always make me think.
Huh, I didn't think about the option of losing on purpose. Like in this game everyone had to count their own points and my team leader who got second place said he had 33 hits, just so it happened I had 32 hits (the less hits the better) and nobody else later had lower amount of hits.
To think that a good way to do it would be to say "I had 34 hits" so I would be close second, make my boss feel good and diminish chances of any higher up being angry, because nobody cares about second place, everyone looks at first.
I guess the only moment when you still want to win is that you for example play a lot of mini golf and people know you play it. Then nobody will be angry that person with a lot of experience beats someone that just tried it out as this is the expected outcome. But they may think you're weak if you had so much experience and still was beat against a person that just started out.
Quote from Bel on July 15, 2023, 1:20 pm
In this case, since the relative status of you and your colleague is equal, you do want to subcommunicate you are higher-power than him, to avoid that he self-frames as higher power than you in front of everyone.
Give the higher ups respect and weaken your win compared to them even in important stuff until your wins become consistent enough there are can't be no more dispute about it, and keep strong hold when colleague tries to diminish it himself, I see.
Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on July 15, 2023, 4:49 pm
My general approach was either to play to win, or to avoid games altogether and be the guy who stands on the side having a good time, or networks and talks to the women (the majority of the women have no interest in the game anyway and many men make the mistke of thinking that winning the side gig will help them romantically, but it rarely does. The guy who doesn't play and plays to date gets the girl is a lot more likely to win there).
That's my approach too! If you don't play to win you may as well not play, but learning that you still want to give higher ups the win while showing you had a solid chance to win is a nice addition to the rule.
Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on July 15, 2023, 4:49 pm
Of course, a lot better to play with the people who can help your career.
Yeah, I think playing with higher ups gives a lot of opportunities of bonding, just after this tournament I talked a lot to CEO while trying to get one shot score with him. But probably would turn out the same even if I didn't win.
Also problems were avoided because only colleagues tried to disempower, the higher ups were mostly congratulating ( they still may have felt irritated personally though ).

Quote from Bel on July 15, 2023, 1:20 pm
Strategies on how to address it
Aside from implementing "high-power/high-warmth" behavior in general, my thoughts are these:
always let the higher-ups at work (or clients in your business) win the "side game"
No point in playing the "side game" (ie the social situation fun-game) as if it mattered.

I love your answers, they always make me think.
Huh, I didn't think about the option of losing on purpose. Like in this game everyone had to count their own points and my team leader who got second place said he had 33 hits, just so it happened I had 32 hits (the less hits the better) and nobody else later had lower amount of hits.
To think that a good way to do it would be to say "I had 34 hits" so I would be close second, make my boss feel good and diminish chances of any higher up being angry, because nobody cares about second place, everyone looks at first.

I guess the only moment when you still want to win is that you for example play a lot of mini golf and people know you play it. Then nobody will be angry that person with a lot of experience beats someone that just tried it out as this is the expected outcome. But they may think you're weak if you had so much experience and still was beat against a person that just started out.

Quote from Bel on July 15, 2023, 1:20 pm
In this case, since the relative status of you and your colleague is equal, you do want to subcommunicate you are higher-power than him, to avoid that he self-frames as higher power than you in front of everyone.

Give the higher ups respect and weaken your win compared to them even in important stuff until your wins become consistent enough there are can't be no more dispute about it, and keep strong hold when colleague tries to diminish it himself, I see.

Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on July 15, 2023, 4:49 pm
My general approach was either to play to win, or to avoid games altogether and be the guy who stands on the side having a good time, or networks and talks to the women (the majority of the women have no interest in the game anyway and many men make the mistke of thinking that winning the side gig will help them romantically, but it rarely does. The guy who doesn't play and plays to date gets the girl is a lot more likely to win there).

That's my approach too! If you don't play to win you may as well not play, but learning that you still want to give higher ups the win while showing you had a solid chance to win is a nice addition to the rule.

Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on July 15, 2023, 4:49 pm
Of course, a lot better to play with the people who can help your career.

Yeah, I think playing with higher ups gives a lot of opportunities of bonding, just after this tournament I talked a lot to CEO while trying to get one shot score with him. But probably would turn out the same even if I didn't win.

Also problems were avoided because only colleagues tried to disempower, the higher ups were mostly congratulating ( they still may have felt irritated personally though ).

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#7 · July 18, 2023, 7:10 am

Another one that could be useful if the higher-up loses:

You: Well, one cannot be good at everything (shrugs).

Where I live, we usually use this one when one loses to self-protect in a jokingly fashion. We also use it to power-protect someone when someone took personally a loss to boost their self-esteem.

It may sound like brown-nosing but the context diminishes it a bit, especially if said 1-on-1. It's a bit of philosopher's frame as it's something that is obviously always true.

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#8 · July 18, 2023, 10:06 am

Quote from John Freeman on July 18, 2023, 7:10 am
Another one that could be useful if the higher-up loses:
You: Well, one cannot be good at everything (shrugs).
Where I live, we usually use this one when one loses to self-protect in a jokingly fashion. We also use it to power-protect someone when someone took personally a loss to boost their self-esteem.
It may sound like brown-nosing but the context diminishes it a bit, especially if said 1-on-1. It's a bit of philosopher's frame as it's something that is obviously always true.

Love this one!

I may modify it to fit for the biggest egos who want to be good at everything -in that version, it's still restating they weren't good at the smaller contest-.

Something like:

You know as they say, real winners focus on what matters and ignore the small stuff like this one (I'm lerning to do the same, too)

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#9 · July 18, 2023, 1:25 pm

Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on July 18, 2023, 10:06 am
You know as they say, real winners focus on what matters and ignore the small stuff like this one (I'm lerning to do the same, too)

Love this one back! This is ego-stroking next level. The higher-up is going to have a boner with this one. He's going to tell his wife and brag about it: "Hey honey, you know what DGX37 told me today?". And the humble pie following it: very leader-like. It removes the brown-nosing feel to it at the same time and builds a brother-in-arms feel to it while puttin one slightly below: like "you're a real winner and I'm in the process of becoming one, so we're of the same material"

The guy's going to think: "Yeah, that's me I'm a real winner, this guy gets it!"

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