Quote from B on March 9, 2022, 5:24 pm

Could he be using the "manipulative mirroring" technique, i.e. attacking you by projecting onto you something he does?

If that's the case, and if there is no possibility to avoid him totally, you could counterattack by mentioning in detail past episodes where he was the one to do what he accuses you of.

In essence, you escalate as far as necessary and paint him as the bad and manipulative person he is in front of other people. And then you could also go meta for maximum effect:

"He was fired because of his behavior. I know everything about him, he can't Co-operate with people".

You: It's interesting you would say that. I remember how YOU have been fired from more than one job, in xxxx, in yyyy and in zzzz. I can provide details if you need them to refresh your memory. But tell me, does projecting your bad behavior on others at least work in making you feel better?

"He didn't do any such course, He only knows to waste time".

You: It's interesting you would say that, when all you do every day is sit in front of the TV, and when you are not there you just plot how to say things to make other people feel bad. Does painting other people as having your motives work in easing your pain for how you are, at least for a little while?

Less confrontational alternative: you let him speak, take the person you were speaking with away from him, and then say something like:

You: "Unfortunately, dad is not well. It is very painful, please let's not talk about this".

Which is probably the best course of action, since having to humiliate back a parent in front of everyone, for a good and empathic person, is always going to be more painful in the long run than whatever brief satisfaction you may get in the moment.

Quote from Ali Scarlett on March 9, 2022, 7:56 pm

Quote from Bel on March 9, 2022, 5:24 pm

Could he be using the "manipulative mirroring" technique, i.e. attacking you by projecting onto you something he does?

If that's the case, and if there is no possibility to avoid him totally, you could counterattack by mentioning in detail past episodes where he was the one to do what he accuses you of.

In essence, you escalate as far as necessary and paint him as the bad and manipulative person he is in front of other people. And then you could also go meta for maximum effect:

"He was fired because of his behavior. I know everything about him, he can't Co-operate with people".

You: It's interesting you would say that. I remember how YOU have been fired from more than one job, in xxxx, in yyyy and in zzzz. I can provide details if you need them to refresh your memory. But tell me, does projecting your bad behavior on others at least work in making you feel better?

"He didn't do any such course, He only knows to waste time".

You: It's interesting you would say that, when all you do every day is sit in front of the TV, and when you are not there you just plot how to say things to make other people feel bad. Does painting other people as having your motives work in easing your pain for how you are, at least for a little while?

Less confrontational alternative: you let him speak, take the person you were speaking with away from him, and then say something like:

You: "Unfortunately, dad is not well. It is very painful, please let's not talk about this".

Which is probably the best course of action, since having to humiliate back a parent in front of everyone, for a good and empathic person, is always going to be more painful in the long run than whatever brief satisfaction you may get in the moment.

I like your overall idea here Bel, but I think there could also be some downsides:

• "...you could counterattack by mentioning in detail past episodes where he was the one to do what he accuses you of": this could get Growfast dragged down into a back and forth debate about what made it acceptable for his dad to do it and unacceptable for him to do it. (In my case, my dad just bullshits and says he "doesn't remember that" which also gets us nowhere.)
• "He didn't do any such course": is an example of contradicting, which is very dominant and rapport-breaking. In cases like those, it may be better to either ignore or, since this is coming from someone with a pattern of disrespectful communication (who's being rude right now), go assertive.

That's why, rather than counterattacking, a better approach might be to say something like this:

Growfast's Dad: "He didn't do any such course, He only knows to waste time."

Growfast: "Dad, (ESE assertiveness technique) I appreciate a more respectful communication."

Growfast's Dad: (laughing) "You're crazy."

Growfast: "(Avoids justifying) Crazy or not, (enforces boundaries) I appreciate a more respectful communication."

By hitting back with a mention of a case when he wasted time before, it could accidentally set the implied frame that:

• If you cannot come up with a good enough reason (or justification) for why you should be communicated with respectfully (why you're not a time-waster) then you need to concede to him, admit you’re wrong, apologize, or go along with his frame/wishes.

In reality, your boundaries don't need explanation or justification. And, giving any only empowers the receiver.

So, some more potential options might be:

The Eagle Approach: Soar Above It and Go Higher

Emotionally unaffected, treat his rudeness as a part of normal conversation, make a light joke of it, and move on.

[Growfast starts giving advice to someone based on a technical course he took for his career.]

Growfast's Dad: "He didn't do any such course, He only knows to waste time."

Growfast: "My old man, ladies and gentleman. He sure knows how to turn on the charm (smiles). Anyways, one thing I learned was..."

The idea is that you deserve to have a good time, and not get dragged down into bullshit. It's easier said than done, I know, but it's also one of the best ways to avoid looking like a petty turkey scratching on the ground with an equally low-quality turkey.

Frame Control: Side-Step As the Judge

[Growfast starts sharing about a career transition he made in pursuit of a higher package and better position.]

Growfast's Dad: "He was fired because of his behavior. I know everything about him, he can't co-operate with people."

Growfast: "That's a weird way to talk about your son (frame ignores the frames about workplace behavior and cooperation and controls the scope of the conversation to parenting)."

Growfast's Dad: (tries to retake control of the scope of the conversation and move it back to a negative frame for Growfast) "Growfast, you're being paranoid. Co-operation is essential and it isn't a good mindset to think everyone is out to get you."

Growfast: (agree and redirects) "I agree that cooperation is essential, (holds his frame with the broken record technique) I'm only saying that that's a weird way to talk about your son."

Then, whenever he brings up something negative about you, you can say something like, "Well, there he goes again," implying his parenting style is inappropriate and far from respectful.

Frame Surfacing: Expose His Rudeness

[Growfast starts sharing about a career transition he made in pursuit of a higher package and better position.]

Growfast's Dad: "He was fired because of his behavior. I know everything about him, he can't co-operate with people."

Growfast: "Why are you saying that?"

Growfast's Dad: (frame surfacing) "Because co-operation is essential and it isn't a good mindset to think everyone is out to get you."

Growfast: (control the scope of the conversation) "I'm not asking about your thoughts on cooperation and mindsets. I'm asking why you're saying this to me right now. Why are you saying this?"

*Click on the blockquote above to expand it.

Keep asking with the intention to get him to admit the real reason he's saying this: to push you down.

P.S.:

To Growfast, Bel definitely has a point about hitting back if your father's disrespect gets too out of hand (and maybe only you can be the judge of that based on your boundaries and social/power awareness).

You might be able to glean some more insights from PU's lessons on assertiveness and microaggressions as well.

Finally, to both Bel and Growfast, feel free to disagree with anything I've said above, I'm happy to exchange ideas on this topic.

Quote from B on March 9, 2022, 8:16 pm

Ali, I agree with your post and also think your proposals are much better than mine, especially with reference to the generic "you know only how to waste time" attack. In this context, my ideas are probably better suited as "last resort" when you just want to blow everything up figuratively. I especially like your Eagle approach, which I also will start using when possible.

With reference to a father attacking the son by mentioning a specific fact, i.e. "in reality you have been fired", I think addressing the tone and strangeness of the communication could be not enough, and one should probably also address the fact (by directly mentioning it is false, or by subcommunicating it is false, e.g. by saying that father is ill, or is projecting); otherwise people could start to think "yes, father was rude, but maybe son was really fired from his last job?"

I am also starting to realize that many of us in this community have in common the circumstance of having some difficult folks: so I will pin this thread figuratively because I think it's very helpful.

Quote from John Freeman on March 9, 2022, 8:25 pm

Hello Growfast,

I'm sorry for you. I can relate as I took some distance with my mother and now see her only two or three times a year. I called her last week to have some news from her as she's getting older and I know there's not so much time left. And she still found ways to put me down: "I hope you find time to eat" on a demeaning tone because I work a lot (these days). Instead of supporting me.

Anyway, back to you. You got some intel from these interactions: when you say that he can still deny.

So for me there are two alternative approaches:

1. I would go with the good ol': "Why do you say that?" and then you can counter on what he says or let him fumble or backtrack or you could just stay silent if he digs his own grave with his answer. The tone is very important. It has to be curious and neutral as in "I really don't understand and want to understand".
2. You could stay at the same level and 1. laugh and move on. or 2. laugh and shake your head. or 3. shake your head and move on or 4. just look at him ignore and move on. There are many options, however to do that, you have to internalise that it's a stupid and inadequate behaviour (be an eagle).

It's not about laughing at what he says, it's about laughing at him or that what he says is ridiculous. Not laughing to the joke but at the joke.

You will have to experiment to find what works. The root idea is that it is nasty from him. So you can only win. It's a matter of finding the right strategy. Body language of disapproval can help (see above). It's a matter of internal emotion and thoughts first. Then, it comes more easily.

Quote from Ali Scarlett on March 9, 2022, 8:36 pm

Quote from Bel on March 9, 2022, 8:16 pm

(...)

However, with reference to a father attacking by mentioning a specific fact, i.e. "in reality you have been fired", I think addressing the tone and strangeness of the communication could be not enough, and one should probably also address the fact (by directly mentioning it is false, or by subcommunicating it is false, e.g. by saying that father is ill, or is projecting); otherwise people could start to think "yes, father was rude, but maybe [son] was really fired from his last job?"

(...)

Yes, I totally agree.

The general rule is to address the tone first and the content second because if you only address the facts or leave the tone for last, then for the duration of that conversation you'll be a verbal punching bag until you finally draw that line in the sand.

That said, you're completely right and my post focused more on the tone because once that's on more fair, respectful grounds, addressing the facts becomes a whole lot easier.

Quote from John Freeman on March 9, 2022, 8:25 pm

(...)

So for me there are two alternative approaches:

1. I would go with the good ol': "Why do you say that?" and then you can counter on what he says or let him fumble or backtrack or you could just stay silent if he digs his own grave with his answer. The tone is very important. It has to be curious and neutral as in "I really don't understand and want to understand".

(...)

Yeah man, you have a great post you did a while back on how you used that technique with a nasty social climber. Definitely a good recommendation for this one, if you ask me :).