Quote from John Freeman on April 11, 2022, 10:45 pm

Such as, John meant it with the "we planned it" frame, while his friend had a more "we'll see" frame.
But still "not cool" would have been fair and would have also kicked out an honest talk discussion about the different expectations, which would have surfaced and clarified the issue.

That is the exact underlying frame.

It for sure is disrespectful, as this person seems to keep your thing as a lower priority thing that can be switched if something better comes along, which I personally wouldn't tolerate.

As SP put it.

I think I consider him a better friend than he considers me a good friend. I mean: Last time, he told me I'm a "buddy" ("pote" in French) and I told him he's a "close friend" ("ami" in French). Of course, this was a mistake from my part acknowledging the imbalance in closeness in terms of power dynamics. So there is a power imbalance here.

I decided to allow myself to act higher power in my friend's group. However, I'm still figuring this out as before I was prioritising warmth and giving value. Now I am still giving value but I don't have as much time and energy to give to my friend.

So this once again proves that I have to expand my social circle to have more choice in the people I invite. That does not only mean having more people in my life. It might mean not inviting the same people all the time. As they grow complacent and value less the value I can offer.

That was one tough truth I had to learn: that power matters a lot, even with friends.

Now I understand why I was feeling uneasy and was not sure how to respond: it was a public conversation.

I meant in a WhatsApp group but I think you understood right.

Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on April 11, 2022, 10:57 pm

Yeah, great point, there might indeed also be a power (im)balance behind this all.

Haven't read all the answers yet, but props to SP for going at that important root cause.

It's normal that we want to be closer to people we consider high-value, so we may give them more time and attention than they give us, and invest them of more importance in our lives than we are to them.
It's also normal if they have more of a "judge" power over us.
That normally comes with power dynamics as well.

But that's OK, and not something to necessarily try to "actively avoid" as that might harm your growth and social life: it's still better to be lower power but have high-value people around than not to :).
The "indirect approach" of enlarging one's social circle, options, and life, is great though.

Those dynamics also change over time, and especially for people who work on themselves.
In a few weeks from now, you may be thinking little of this guy (and maybe he may want your attention back).

Quote from John Freeman on April 11, 2022, 10:45 pm

I meant in a WhatsApp group but I think you understood right.

Yeah, got it :).

Quote from John Freeman on April 11, 2022, 11:40 pm

Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on April 11, 2022, 10:57 pm

It's normal that we want to be closer to people we consider high-value, so we may give them more time and attention than they give us, and invest them of more importance in our lives than we are to them.

But that's OK, and not something to necessarily try to "actively avoid" as that might harm your growth and social life: it's still better to be lower power but have high-value people around than not to :).

That's a key concept that deserves to be in PU.

Those dynamics also change over time, and especially for people who work on themselves.
In a few weeks from now, you may be thinking little of this guy (and maybe he may want your attention back).

Very very important. Since doing PU, working on these aspects and exchanging on the forum, I grew in Power of course. So now it reflects in my interactions.

Basically, everyone (even people in the bus) is respecting me more. People excuse themselves to me even though they have done nothing wrong. I don't even have to talk. It's a lot in the nonverbal. I am not even aware of what I'm doing differently. It's how I am inside of me that changed. I'm more detached and feel more powerful, more in control. However, it does cost some emotions. I feel less than I used to feel. I used to feel more emotions.

So I think it's a very important point. As (productive) time is a great separator.

I was at a party recently, with people I haven't seen in 10 years. Some have thrived and others have fallen. Some have grown, others stayed the same. It was quite enlightening. So this is what we actually control: our own mindset, our own habits. Because it is so hard to change, that is why it makes a big difference in our lives.

This is not a philosopher's frame. It's a reminder. Let's leave them in the dust.

I actually have a lot of work to do myself, so I'm humble towards that. I've so many challenges in front of me, there is no way I'm being contemptuous with other people. I failed too much and have been too presumptuous in the past to do these mistakes again. I'm observing though.

I ranted a bit. Most of this should have gone in my journal. Anyway, I hope you'll find something useful for you above.

Quote from John Freeman on April 16, 2022, 2:05 pm

@Lucio: As I was re-reading this thread to internalise it. I read your edits. Thank you very much. It's crystal clear.

Being afraid of pissing off other people is one of the barriers to assertiveness.

Quote from John Freeman on July 3, 2022, 4:55 pm

Hello guys, here is a new case study with A., my psychiatrist friend (to give a little context):

To give more context, he ghosted my other friend N. because they had said they were going out together and he ditched him last minute because A. did not answer fast enough. So N. went for a meal with his family on the lakeshore. It was a dick move from both of them: the not replying fast enough from A., the ditching from N. and the ghosting from A.

At 6pm on Friday, I proposed him an afterwork to my friend A. He seemed enthusiastic about it. We were going back and forth with him saying he will arrive later. That if I was going to wait there would be people there already. I told him I was going to do some sport and organise myself to meet him later when he will tell me the time he will arrive.

6PM

[...]

Him: But with all that I still have to do and the transport I won't be there in 1.5 hours lol. But I keep you updated if you want :) (frames me as needing him more than he needs me, I ignore it)

Me: Don't worry! (frame: I'm a big boy, I can take care of myself, levels the field)

9pm

3 hours later, still no message from him.

Me: No news good news? (French expression meaning that if you don't get news from someone you care, for instance if he/she's travelling, it means he/she's fine and we should not worry).

Me (10 min later): Since I don't have any news I propose to you that do this another time :) (Assertive, with a smiley to soften it)

Him: Hello. Yeah no sorry but it's too difficult for me tonight. I'm going to go home (He works in another city and the drink was supposed to take place where he has his main apartment, the city where I live). I have to many things to do at the appartment :-/ Sorry! (One-up, he has more important things to do, I'm less important than his chores at his appartment so he cancels without even saying it first, I had to contact him)

Me: Next time tell me as soon as you know please (assertive, proposes change of future behaviour)

Him: I think I should have told you "no" directly because it seemed to me too short (he was not assertive nor honest and acknowledges it)

Me: Yeah I think as well. Because it's not very cool for me. Otherwise I would have done something else.

Him: Yes sorry (does not look like he means it but still expresses it). You can still go to Bar X :) (light tasking). There are cool people in general no? (does not come, ditches me and tell me to go a bar to meet people like I have nothing else better to do)

Me: I'm not sure we understood each other (meaning: that's not what it is all about)

Me: It happens (moves on, don't want to expand the thread)

Me: I must go sorry see you later (A power move from mine as I stayed home that night, to counter his "sorry" and ditching but keeps the relationship)

Him: does not even looks at his phone nor answers

Analysis

Basically he thinks he's higher power than me and does not respect my time. It might have been true in the past when my social life was poorer but that's no longer the case.

I could have done something else with my Friday evening.

From now I won't contact him as he's the one who has to come back to me. If he does not I don't mind. I won't chase him as I'm aware now of this chasing power dynamics.

I realized that it's ok to be pissed off. In the past I was pretending not to be pissed off not to give my power away. Now I'm ok with being pissed off for being disrespected.

I'm glad I was assertive enough to tell him it was not cool compared to the previous situation in this thread.

I still think that I could have responded better and be less reactive and less passive aggressive ("We did not understood each other. It happens") is a bit passive aggressive as one can understood I'm pissed off but I don't go into details.

Next time:

I will say: "It's not cool" I will own it instead of a weaker "It's not very cool"

I will say: "Otherwise I would have contacted someone else" (frames me as having an abundant social life and not needing him.

 

I'm happy to have feed-back on this situation as I'm sure there are things I'm was not aware of and I might have over-reacted.

Quote from MMC on July 3, 2022, 10:38 pm

Disclaimer: I am a not a super organized person and I sometimes no-show last minute for some professional meetings. However, I do provide the best reason I can and make apologies sincerely.

 

So, if I were you, I will try to ask him three questions:

1. Does he feel that the promise is serious or not? Well, a lot of people think professional appointments are serious while promise for personal leisure is not.

2. Does he have a good reason for cancelling lastminute?

3. Is he willing to sincerely apologize to everyone and promise this will never happen again?

 

If he does not give a definite "yes" to all three, I think you know better than me what to do :)

Quote from Emily on July 4, 2022, 7:23 am

Wow, great post from you, John. I resonate with this a lot, about not responding and cancellations.

The cancelling last minute by board game friend has more consequences other than personal feelings since your game requires 4 players. My instinct also tells me to go direct and open. For this I would have said:

It's important for you to show up, man. I would appreciate a bit more advanced notice for this since we count on you to make it to 4 for this game. Let's establish better accountability for things like this. You know I'd show up for you.

Here I basically went from emphasize inclusion -> explain consequences -> mutual goal setting -> my promise. This is the best I can do to make it sound more collaborative and win-win. Of course, this might be too confrontational in public depending on context, but I feel is pretty appropriate in private.

For your psychiatriast friend, if going direct I would be like (after waiting the amount of time I want to wait):

Hey man, I can't do this anymore. Can you propose another time for something similar? I would like to see you but this is getting too late for me/I can't wait for this long.

It goes from -> explain situation/slightly annoyance -> slight tasking -> collaborative frame. If using “i can't wait for this long”, the tone is a bit stronger, but I feel is still accurate, since it's about you.

However, it sounds like there's more intricate dynamics for the psychiatrist friend than the board game friend, so depending on context maybe a direct approach like above is not the best option. But you know it better than me. ;)

I was like you as well, as I default to focus on warmth/value providing. One thought that helped me get better with assertiveness is that, I see it as a chance to express myself for emotional bonding. It generally moves the relationship deeper and for the better more effectively, than burying feelings.

 

Quote from B on July 4, 2022, 5:33 pm

Hi John,

very useful case study, I also encounter very similar situations.

Premise is that you know better. My thoughts are based only on the details below.

Quote from John Freeman on July 3, 2022, 4:55 pm

At 6pm on Friday, I proposed him an afterwork to my friend A. He seemed enthusiastic about it. We were going back and forth with him saying he will arrive later. That if I was going to wait there would be people there already. I told him I was going to do some sport and organise myself to meet him later when he will tell me the time he will arrive.

My feeling here is that the whole thing started on a wrong course. The frame was from the start that he was taking the liberty to say when he would be there.

6PM

[...]

Him: But with all that I still have to do and the transport I won't be there in 1.5 hours lol. But I keep you updated if you want 🙂 (frames me as needing him more than he needs me, I ignore it)

Me: Don't worry! (frame: I'm a big boy, I can take care of myself, levels the field)

I agree that he was painting you as needy here. And to not appear as needy, you cut him slack, which he somewhat used to overpower you (which BTW, is something I also used to constantly experience).

An alternative idea:

You: I see you have a tight schedule today: why don't we do it another time when we'll both be sure we can make it.

That way, if he is really interested, he'll say "No no, I'll make it for ...". If not, you know.

9pm

Me (10 min later): Since I don't have any news I propose to you that do this another time 🙂 (Assertive, with a smiley to soften it)

Here I feel you could also have gone stronger:

You: A, are you going to make it?

 

Him: Hello. Yeah no sorry but it's too difficult for me tonight. I'm going to go home (He works in another city and the drink was supposed to take place where he has his main apartment, the city where I live). I have to many things to do at the appartment :-/ Sorry! (One-up, he has more important things to do, I'm less important than his chores at his appartment so he cancels without even saying it first, I had to contact him)

Me: Next time tell me as soon as you know please (assertive, proposes change of future behaviour)

Him: I think I should have told you "no" directly because it seemed to me too short (he was not assertive nor honest and acknowledges it)

I think your assertive statement was great! He does seem to acknowledge his behavior was not the best.

Me: Yeah I think as well. Because it's not very cool for me. Otherwise I would have done something else.

This stamenent feels too strong. An alternative idea:

Him: I think I should have told you "no" directly because it seemed to me too short (he was not assertive nor honest and acknowledges it)

You: I understand if you need more time to organize your schedule, let's take that into account from now on and we'll arrange with sufficient advance next time to avoid this issue. Talk to you soon

Premise is that you know better. My thoughts are based only on the details below.

Quote from John Freeman on July 4, 2022, 7:48 pm

Thank you MMC, Bel and Emily for your answers!

Quote from MMC on July 3, 2022, 10:38 pm

So, if I were you, I will try to ask him three questions:

1. Does he feel that the promise is serious or not? Well, a lot of people think professional appointments are serious while promise for personal leisure is not.

I understand this. However, for me it's more about respecting one's time when somebody

2. Does he have a good reason for cancelling lastminute?

It's his own priorities. Nobody died in his family and he was out of his work. So it's up to him about the importance.

3. Is he willing to sincerely apologize to everyone and promise this will never happen again?

That's what I think he failed to do.

If he does not give a definite "yes" to all three, I think you know better than me what to do 🙂

I actually don't. What do you mean?

It's important for you to show up, man. I would appreciate a bit more advanced notice for this since we count on you to make it to 4 for this game. Let's establish better accountability for things like this. You know I'd show up for you.

I like it better than this. The "you know I'd show up for you" I'm not 100% sure because they can always get this one example when I cancelled last minute (I don't do that 99% of the time) and I don't remember.

Hey man, I can't do this anymore. Can you propose another time for something similar? I would like to see you but this is getting too late for me/I can't wait for this long.

This is great. I waited too long so I did not have anymore time to make other plans. I gave him too much power by waiting on him to know what to do with my Friday evening.

One thought that helped me get better with assertiveness is that, I see it as a chance to express myself for emotional bonding. It generally moves the relationship deeper and for the better more effectively, than burying feelings

True, it's a great mindset.

My feeling here is that the whole thing started on a wrong course. The frame was from the start that he was taking the liberty to say when he would be there.

True. I gave this power to him unknowingly. I know better now.

You: I see you have a tight schedule today: why don't we do it another time when we'll both be sure we can make it.

That way, if he is really interested, he'll say "No no, I'll make it for ...". If not, you know.

Powerful.

You: A, are you going to make it?

True I could have confronted him with his promise to come this savvy way. Short and effective.

You: I understand if you need more time to organize your schedule, let's take that into account from now on and we'll arrange with sufficient advance next time to avoid this issue. Talk to you soon

This piece is worthy of Lucio. Collaborative, leader-like, warm, high-power, not taking it personally. Really eagle-like.