How to defend against frame imposing
NZ My Mrs is Chinese so even if the PLA come which is not looking impossible I should survive.
Nicely done. I was curious how as correcting people is often a flashpoint.
I haven't yet read everything in this thread, but wanted to drop two quick notes:
- The slamming of the beer / challenge to fight is not cool: I'd consider that a major strike against him, says a lot about his character and issues. I may bring that up the day after to demand an apology. Or even demand a public apology
However, you know the situation better.
If he looks stupid when he does it, which is very likely he does, then you lose nothing and can even gain something by ignoring, while he loses a lot.
Quote from John Freeman on April 16, 2022, 10:32 amI should have just asked: “Why?”
(...)
Then, we can say: « I understand better now, thanks for the explanation »
And we can close with: « I respect your point of view » and close the topic there.
Yes, "why" is good.
You may also close with "I disagree (but respect your point of view)".
I also like a lot these higher report formats:
- I don't fully agree, but respect...
- I only partially agree but still fully respect...
Especially the last one is golden when you want to maintain rapport and smooth things over while still sending the message that you hold a different opinion.
Quote from John Freeman on April 24, 2022, 5:07 pmSo I could say he's mildly narcissistic. However, not as bad as nasty social climber A. Due to the number of people with this problem, I decided I need to be able to manage them and not have them too close to me. I won't exclude them but I won't give them priority or anything.
Yeah, much social circle success is that:
Keeping the bad apples far enough not to spoil the bunch -or better yet, fading them-, managing the "OK" ones in the periphery, and tending and developing closer ties with the best ones.
As you said in another post, the "OK ones" can still be helpful to inject some novelty and some rotation in the group.
Quote from John Freeman on April 24, 2022, 5:07 pmAlso I noticed when people tell me stories about doctors it's a way to hurt my status. If I criticize other doctors, it's an indirect way of criticising you. Next time people criticize doctors in front of me I will defend better.
Absolutely.
If one wanted to criticize doctors without making a power move, then they should power protect saying "of course not everyone" or "some bad apples are everywhere of course, even among (his own group)".
One good way of handling is doing the same thing back:
Him: doctors are...
You: yeah, sure, some are, but let's not over-generalize. Some cardiologists are assholes too, but there are plenty of great cardiologists as well, right
A mix of one-up back and philosopher.
It's hard to deny that without looking like he's got a personal issue with doctors
Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on April 25, 2022, 4:32 amQuote from John Freeman on April 24, 2022, 5:07 pmAlso I noticed when people tell me stories about doctors it's a way to hurt my status. If I criticize other doctors, it's an indirect way of criticising you. Next time people criticize doctors in front of me I will defend better.
Absolutely.
If one wanted to criticize doctors without making a power move, then they should power protect saying "of course not everyone" or "some bad apples are everywhere of course, even among (his own group)".
One good way of handling is doing the same thing back:
Him: doctors are...
You: yeah, sure, some are, but let's not over-generalize. Some cardiologists are assholes too, but there are plenty of great cardiologists as well, rightA mix of one-up back and philosopher.
It's hard to deny that without looking like he's got a personal issue with doctors
That’s really useful.
This “criticizing people in your profession” move is something I was subjected to by a very close person for years, usually in front of others.
And I was totally unaware of what was going on, often stuck at the content level.
My realization that he was essentially trying to humiliate me came in steps.
First I stopped agreeing with him (yes, unfortunately years ago I would even agree!).
Then I started defending the content (i.e. that’s not true, it’s this instead).
Then lastly I defended against him raising the point over and over though I was helping him, and said he should show more respect since he was benefiting from a (free of charge!) lawyer’s help.
Then I realized he was doing it on purpose; this was still before I found Power University.
I don’t speak with him any more.
He also pointed several time that I had insisted that my name was pronounced correctly. Like if I was making a big deal out of it. He tried to make fun of me because of this.
What I do is to point out that I was pronouncing right the name of everybody around the table. “Your name is N. her name is R. My name is John. It’s not that complicated.”
Because I held it strongly several times he had nothing to say.
The power of fact-based and assertiveness.
100% what you said Lucio about bad apples and the structure of the social circle.
About the profession power move (this is actually a group power move: "You Italians, etc."): my mistake was that I was also addressing the content and agreeing: "yes, there are some bad physicians, blabla" so this is an example where I disempowered myself.
I then talked about a dentist who drilled healthy teeth of mine in Brazil just to make money. I said that however I was not generalising to Brazilians or dentists. So kind of a philosopher power move but not as powerful as yours, Lucio.
That being said yours is better, Lucio: to use the philosopher frame to minimise the bad apples of your in-group and emphasise the good ones.
If you want to deliver that more dominantly or if you need to push back more strongly, you can look and/or gesticulate right at him while you say "some (of your profession) can be assholes, too".
Then, when you say "but not everyone is, right", you can also look back at him, and now it feels like you're rescuing him and giving him a chance to save face and/or avoid the surfacing of his original nastiness.
This is golden. Thank you very much.
That’s the kind of approach I need to take with the narcissists in my social circle. Defend with a philosopher frame and go on the offensive smoothly. That’s the next level approach for me. It’s very eagle like.
I agree with you and Bel about going on the offensive. The next level in self-defense. When you’re an Eagle, your own defense can be: I don’t behave like that. This demands no more explanation if your actions are in alignment.
To do that it’s important not to virtue signal but to use it as a fact of the matter. “I ask you some respect because I treat you with respect”. We could call this “fact-based frame negotiation.”
Now I see that it is the Power of high quality people. We can demand better treatment because we give better treatment. And this good treatment cannot be denied by the receiver. If it’s the case then we know who we’re dealing with.
I totally visualize the gesticulation BTW.
PS: I think you understood that I was referring to the “that is why you have Fiat and we have Porsche” power move. I thought about this one and he could have said Ferrari and Porsche. But he deliberately chose Fiat, hence the nastiness.