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How to evaluate and experiment in first encounters?
I'm back and happy to see a lot more discussions here! Sorry that I missed the recent upgrade news about membership status - frankly I was shocked but then I'm accepting it understanding how much running cost that is (mental, emotional and financial) but also glad that I got a bit of extension to finish my current version of PU materials.
Recently I was trying to organize an event with a person I met recently and she cancelled on me last minute. I was feeling pretty bitter about it to be honest and just want to discuss how we should evaluate people that we barely know so we don't over invest and let relationships organically grow.
So I met this person at a mutual interest group event and we agreed to go to a cultural festival that's relevant to the activity we were doing before. She doesn't have a car so I said I'd be happy to arrange carpool and I kept informing her what the schedule is like about the festival etc. and talking about the plan - in a span of at least 3 months. One week before the festival she sent me a message saying that her friend is hosting a camping trip and she feels it's too good to pass so she wouldn't go to the festival, and asked me if I knew somebody who has a student status which can take over her ticket - I thought it was pretty bad behavior because first she cancelled on me dismissing my efforts to arrange this whole thing with her. Second she even asked me to look around for somebody to take her ticket - more taker behavior. Of course I'm not gonna talk to this person again. Oh and she asked me to attend one of her own thing making me believe there was a discount and it wasn't the case, and she didn't even hang out with me or something after that.
I am wondering at what point do we make judgement about a person's conduct before things roll out like this. But of course I'm not gonna give her any other chance because all of those combined showed that she doesn't have interest to make friends with me by investing her actual personal time, and also asked me for favors without thinking about returning.
Happy to hear your thoughts - I probably could have stopped the first time she asked me to go to her thing without being considerate, she also subsequently didn't come to a couple things I invited her to.
Hello Emily,
Yes, I confirm your impression: not a good character.
Also notice this, also showing her "me first, you not even crossed my mind" attitude and lacking both empathy and social skills:
Quote from Emily on August 5, 2023, 11:25 pmOne week before the festival she sent me a message saying that her friend is hosting a camping trip and she feels it's too good to pass so she wouldn't go to the festival, a
Sure, maybe it's good to pass.
But you don't want to give the friend you're standing up that reason because it adds insult to injury.
It feels like a slap in the face, since the sub-communication is:
I take whatever is better for me, with zero consideration about the costs to you, and our friendship.
So while one may think that it's manipulative to instead make a different type of excuse -say, that her relatives have been begging her to go-, that can also show some consideration for the receiver (such as: they put themselves in your shoes and know that a stronger reason to cancel would at least better protect your feelings and maintain friendship).
Her approach instead tells you very clearly she doesn't value the friendship and the other person very much and has very little empathy.
As to your question, when to make a call, you may already know my answer: depends a lot on the circumstances.
In this specific case, and I may be wrong of course, it feels to me like indeed at least one red flag was there (I remember a similar situation in my life. I once gave great value with first-hand insider information about a team dynamics to a VC investor and then they invited me and another guy for lunch and didn't pay. Their next email went unanswered).
And it also sounds to me like you may have invested too much on someone you didn't yet know well enough (in those 3 months of planning, I'd have expected them to chip in with the planning or try to make up the fact that you were driving in some shape or form).
Thank you, Lucio, for your thoughts! Yes I felt the same about her stating the reason is that she "felt like it" - not because of anything outside of her control, like what you said, friends/family, weather, sickness or anything like that. I did go back and check that she actually said for the other trip she was “so called to go” - seems like a softer blow but the same effect and message that she subcommunicates.
This illustrates that in social occasions we gotta be conscious and aware about what others are doing - not be trapped in naivete and the old goodwill. Yes I agree that the back and forths should have started way earlier to evaluate her character. Sometimes I feel sad that I have to hold back a bit because I naturally feel like connecting - but yes I've learnt hard again and again that trust has to be won.
Quote from Emily on August 6, 2023, 11:22 pmThis illustrates that in social occasions we gotta be conscious and aware about what others are doing - not be trapped in naivete and the old goodwill. Yes I agree that the back and forths should have started way earlier to evaluate her character. Sometimes I feel sad that I have to hold back a bit because I naturally feel like connecting - but yes I've learnt hard again and again that trust has to be won.
Yep, you said it.
Or, at least, give a little bit and "monitor", rather than give a lot and hope.
Hello Emily,
Interesting case, thanks for sharing. ”too good to pass” well now it’s your turn to pass… on her.
Yeah I think it happens when our character is to tend to see the best in others. Also when we have the character of giving. Does not make us better (no superiority complex here) it’s a character trait. So it’s about strategic giving I believe. Whom to give, how much, when and how.
I know it sucks when we are a person who’s more interested in the connection and appreciate the simple fact of exchanging with someone we appreciate as a person.
Sadly that’s part of the human game. I don’t like it either but I think it’s worth coming up with new and empowering ways of dealing with friends. Give a little as Lucio said and see where it goes.
In my group of friends I feel the same: I gave a lot but it does not reflect enough (in my opinion) on how people are seeking me out.
So it comes down to power I think. It’s about putting ourselves in a position where people need us more than we need them. I think it goes with learning how to be alone and emotionally independent (not saying you don’t). It’s not about dismissing them or being superior to them. It’s about us having the choice. Us being the choosers instead of the chooses. Again that’s not what I want. It’s how I observed it is and I could be wrong or change my mind in the future.
What I noticed is that people are interested in value yes. But if they can take without giving back depending on their characters they will. Character is key of course.
So all in all you learned something and dodged a bullet. Rinse and Repeat. There are better people out there who deserve what you have to offer and will respect you for who you are.
Very interesting & helpful post John. I wish I could put my thoughts into words the way you do!
Thank you Roberto :)
Quote from John Freeman on August 8, 2023, 11:58 amHello Emily,
Interesting case, thanks for sharing. ”too good to pass” well now it’s your turn to pass… on her.
Yeah I think it happens when our character is to tend to see the best in others. Also when we have the character of giving. Does not make us better (no superiority complex here) it’s a character trait. So it’s about strategic giving I believe. Whom to give, how much, when and how.
I know it sucks when we are a person who’s more interested in the connection and appreciate the simple fact of exchanging with someone we appreciate as a person.
Sadly that’s part of the human game. I don’t like it either but I think it’s worth coming up with new and empowering ways of dealing with friends. Give a little as Lucio said and see where it goes.
In my group of friends I feel the same: I gave a lot but it does not reflect enough (in my opinion) on how people are seeking me out.
So it comes down to power I think. It’s about putting ourselves in a position where people need us more than we need them. I think it goes with learning how to be alone and emotionally independent (not saying you don’t). It’s not about dismissing them or being superior to them. It’s about us having the choice. Us being the choosers instead of the chooses. Again that’s not what I want. It’s how I observed it is and I could be wrong or change my mind in the future.
What I noticed is that people are interested in value yes. But if they can take without giving back depending on their characters they will. Character is key of course.
So all in all you learned something and dodged a bullet. Rinse and Repeat. There are better people out there who deserve what you have to offer and will respect you for who you are.
Appreciate your personal perspectives a lot, John. Yes, I think my approach has been a bit passive aggressive to be honest- give and hope for return and if no return then I get irritated. The healthy approach is to take it as what it is, poke it a bit, give a bit but not invest too much, be curious, then experiment with it and not to be too attached to the results. Yes, there's an innate need to connect, but like you said, many people probably are not worth a deep effort.
Appreciate your words :)
Yep, many selfish and negative people out there. The thing is that I think is that when we're aware of it it gets easier to sort out people. The thing that I found painful is to look at the nasty side of human nature. I'm not talking about Hitler. I'm talking about all of us. As much as there is beauty within us there is also some gooey stinky thing also. More or less depending on the people. More or less depending on how we look at it (our mood, etc.).
