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How to find (convert) loyal AND competent freelancers/service providers?

#1 · August 25, 2022, 9:28 am

Quote from Alex on August 25, 2022, 9:28 am
Hi guys,
So I have been a business owner for the last 7 years. I have learned a lot things during these years in leadership, recruitment as well as management, and I have employed over 100 employees, agencies and online freelancers.
The Problem
However, one of the most frequent, biggest and most limiting problem that I could not solve is that I haven’t been able to find freelancers or service providers that are 1. competent, 2. hard-working and driven, 3. loyal simultaneously.
It is a bit easier to find higher quality employees as we have contracts and that they have to come work in a physical office with manager supervision everyday, but unfortunately a lot of the jobs that require higher competence aren’t the ones for which you can find a competent employee, the guys prefer to stay independent, or these are just short-term missions.
The problem with incompetent people is that even though they are hard-working and loyal, eventually they are a loss of time, especially if you don't have the skill they are supposed to have so cannot train them.
The problem with people that are not hard-working is that even though they are competent and loyal, their output is very low and you always have to push them to produce a normal amount of work, until they become bored and stop working with you.
The problem with people that are unloyal is that even though they are competent and hard-working, they tend to produce a good work for you only in the short-term, and eventually steal your ideas and exploit them for themselves.
What I have tried to solve it
Here are all of the things that I have tried to solve these limitations: Interview hundreds of them to filter and increase chances of finding the good person and have choice. Offer higher than market average salary. Be respectful and fair to the core. Good follow-up/management/guidance. Offer long-term work (as in game theory, people tend to try to betray more in short-term games). Have an “exclusivity contract” where the freelancer can only work with us in exchange for a good salary (which was almost often betrayed).
Realization
One thing that I am starting to think more and more is that if they were so good in these high-competence positions, why would they work for someone else and not directly for themselves?
And apart from very generic jobs, I have often been very disappointed with the quality of work offered and productivity for more specific jobs (be it marketing teams, copywriters, closers, software developers, etc).
Another thing that I have noticed is that it seems that the only goal of freelancers/service-providers is to get more customers, and that they tend to put energy into that a lot more than on doing their job. This way, even if they are competent, they will usually fail to meet work standards and expectations (and also tend to be less loyal as they have more options and work with different people at the same time). The distance (this is often remote) also increase risk of betrayal.
The limiting triad
So I came to this conclusion, they can only have 2 of the things I am looking for simultaneously: if the freelancer/service provider is competent and industrious (usually the rarest type, and hard to spot), he isn’t loyal. If he is hard-working and loyal, he isn’t competent. If he is loyal and competent, he isn’t hard working. That could summarize what I have observed
Question
How would you go around this problem to find a freelancer or service provider that is competent, loyal and hard-working and stays with you in the long term, in the most effective way?

Hi guys,

So I have been a business owner for the last 7 years. I have learned a lot things during these years in leadership, recruitment as well as management, and I have employed over 100 employees, agencies and online freelancers.

The Problem

However, one of the most frequent, biggest and most limiting problem that I could not solve is that I haven’t been able to find freelancers or service providers that are 1. competent, 2. hard-working and driven, 3. loyal simultaneously.

It is a bit easier to find higher quality employees as we have contracts and that they have to come work in a physical office with manager supervision everyday, but unfortunately a lot of the jobs that require higher competence aren’t the ones for which you can find a competent employee, the guys prefer to stay independent, or these are just short-term missions.

The problem with incompetent people is that even though they are hard-working and loyal, eventually they are a loss of time, especially if you don't have the skill they are supposed to have so cannot train them.

The problem with people that are not hard-working is that even though they are competent and loyal, their output is very low and you always have to push them to produce a normal amount of work, until they become bored and stop working with you.

The problem with people that are unloyal is that even though they are competent and hard-working, they tend to produce a good work for you only in the short-term, and eventually steal your ideas and exploit them for themselves.

What I have tried to solve it

Here are all of the things that I have tried to solve these limitations: Interview hundreds of them to filter and increase chances of finding the good person and have choice. Offer higher than market average salary. Be respectful and fair to the core. Good follow-up/management/guidance. Offer long-term work (as in game theory, people tend to try to betray more in short-term games). Have an “exclusivity contract” where the freelancer can only work with us in exchange for a good salary (which was almost often betrayed).

Realization

One thing that I am starting to think more and more is that if they were so good in these high-competence positions, why would they work for someone else and not directly for themselves?

And apart from very generic jobs, I have often been very disappointed with the quality of work offered and productivity for more specific jobs (be it marketing teams, copywriters, closers, software developers, etc).

Another thing that I have noticed is that it seems that the only goal of freelancers/service-providers is to get more customers, and that they tend to put energy into that a lot more than on doing their job. This way, even if they are competent, they will usually fail to meet work standards and expectations (and also tend to be less loyal as they have more options and work with different people at the same time). The distance (this is often remote) also increase risk of betrayal.

The limiting triad

So I came to this conclusion, they can only have 2 of the things I am looking for simultaneously: if the freelancer/service provider is competent and industrious (usually the rarest type, and hard to spot), he isn’t loyal. If he is hard-working and loyal, he isn’t competent. If he is loyal and competent, he isn’t hard working. That could summarize what I have observed

Question

How would you go around this problem to find a freelancer or service provider that is competent, loyal and hard-working and stays with you in the long term, in the most effective way?

Kavalier and leaderoffun have reacted to this post.

#2 · August 25, 2022, 4:42 pm

Hello, Alex

I think that, in terms of general strategy, you are doing it very well already.

Here are all of the things that I have tried to solve these limitations: Interview hundreds of them to filter and increase chances of finding the good person and have choice. Offer higher than market average salary. Be respectful and fair to the core. Good follow-up/management/guidance. Offer long-term work (as in game theory, people tend to try to betray more in short-term games). Have an “exclusivity contract” where the freelancer can only work with us in exchange for a good salary (which was almost often betrayed).

All in all, these are the free market limitations. Freelance services enter in a category of "perfect" competition (or as perfect as it gets outside of Economics books), where prices (including salaries) are similar and entries and exits are very free floating. We can increase the odds in our favour by doing what you are already doing (and perhaps other people in the community have more specific advice), but I don't see how we could find a way around this altogether.

Lucio Buffalmano, Ali Scarlett and 2 other users have reacted to this post.

#3 · August 25, 2022, 11:26 pm

Hi Alex,

just throwing ideas around here:

- you say that these service providers seem most focused in getting new customers than in doing the work; if that is the case, could it be that you are recruiting them from a less than ideal pool (eg from a specific website or service provider aggregator), and would it be possible for you to find them on another medium or in person (eg from recommendations from other people)?

- you say that with some of them you had in place exclusivity contracts that were betrayed: did you sue or enforce consequences in those cases? If not, it’s possible that you created a “reputation” of not being willing to enforce your rights, and this could tend to attract bad people;

- you say that you are looking for someone who is competent and hard-working; I tend to group these two categories into one (competence), as I see being “hard-working” as complying with promised output and deadlines, which to me is part of being competent; so maybe it could be a matter of better defining work-scope and deadlines?

- you speak about loyalty, but from your examples it seems these people were plain dishonest; here what could be helpful is honing further the skill to recognize these kinds of people (dark triads or just plain takers) in advance.

I concur with Kavalier that finding a good, competent and honest freelancer is very difficult in any case, because it’s difficult to be (become) one.

Lucio Buffalmano, Ali Scarlett and 2 other users have reacted to this post.

#4 · August 26, 2022, 6:08 am

Quote from Alex on August 26, 2022, 6:08 am
Thank you very much for the awesome replies Kavalier and Bel, this is very helpful and brings a lot of clarity!
Quote from Bel on August 25, 2022, 11:26 pm
you say that these service providers seem most focused in getting new customers than in doing the work; if that is the case, could it be that you are recruiting them from a less than ideal pool (eg from a specific website or service provider aggregator), and would it be possible for you to find them on another medium or in person (eg from recommendations from other people)?
That's very possible that the websites/aggregators I am using contribute to this situation. I have also worked with recommendations, but very often to my disappointment. I will try to dig more into my network though.
Quote from Bel on August 25, 2022, 11:26 pm
you say that with some of them you had in place exclusivity contracts that were betrayed: did you sue or enforce consequences in those cases? If not, it’s possible that you created a “reputation” of not being willing to enforce your rights, and this could tend to attract bad people;
I did not, as I found that this is where legal measures have limitations. If you live in different countries and that the other party tends to change location often (digital nomads), the cost of trying to enforce a contract or sue them is not worth it in my experience. I've also had the same problem with "digital nomad" customers that did not pay for services after receiving them (and this did not change after I spent $10,000's in lawyers or debt collectors).
Quote from Bel on August 25, 2022, 11:26 pm
you say that you are looking for someone who is competent and hard-working; I tend to group these two categories into one (competence), as I see being “hard-working” as complying with promised output and deadlines, which to me is part of being competent; so maybe it could be a matter of better defining work-scope and deadlines?
From my experience, competent freelancers (that have advanced skills) that have a lot of financial success, reputation and many options tend to become lazier or less driven over time, and will try to choose the path of least resistance (be it finding easier jobs, outsourcing, or simply procrastinating/being a lot less productive). That is not always the case though, but usually this kind of profiles tend to be less loyal in my experience.
Quote from Bel on August 25, 2022, 11:26 pm
you speak about loyalty, but from your examples it seems these people were plain dishonest; here what could be helpful is honing further the skill to recognize these kinds of people (dark triads or just plain takers) in advance.
That's a very helpful advice and I should definitely try to pay more attention to that. However, I've noticed than in cases where the stakes are high, otherwise honest people with low dark triad traits tend to betray, and it is very difficult to notice.
To give an example, I have a friend who was selling a product online very successfully (let's say he was making $15K of profit per day) and his marketing operator seemed to be a competent, hard-working and loyal person (I've talked with him several times and would never have suspected him of betrayal). After a while, I've learned from this friend that the product "stopped working" (which seemed normal as this tends to happen often) so that he was not profitable anymore. However, I've learned recently completely by chance that the same marketing operator now has a shop selling the same product that was created exactly when my friend's product "stopped working". A perfect betrayal that would almost have been impossible to prove, and that was much more profitable for this freelancer. And I've seen lot of similar things from closers, software developers and other freelancers.
What's frightening is that a lot of time, it's almost impossible to spot the betrayal, or it happens only several years after the damage has been irreversibly done.

Thank you very much for the awesome replies Kavalier and Bel, this is very helpful and brings a lot of clarity!

Quote from Bel on August 25, 2022, 11:26 pm
you say that these service providers seem most focused in getting new customers than in doing the work; if that is the case, could it be that you are recruiting them from a less than ideal pool (eg from a specific website or service provider aggregator), and would it be possible for you to find them on another medium or in person (eg from recommendations from other people)?

That's very possible that the websites/aggregators I am using contribute to this situation. I have also worked with recommendations, but very often to my disappointment. I will try to dig more into my network though.

Quote from Bel on August 25, 2022, 11:26 pm
you say that with some of them you had in place exclusivity contracts that were betrayed: did you sue or enforce consequences in those cases? If not, it’s possible that you created a “reputation” of not being willing to enforce your rights, and this could tend to attract bad people;

I did not, as I found that this is where legal measures have limitations. If you live in different countries and that the other party tends to change location often (digital nomads), the cost of trying to enforce a contract or sue them is not worth it in my experience. I've also had the same problem with "digital nomad" customers that did not pay for services after receiving them (and this did not change after I spent $10,000's in lawyers or debt collectors).

Quote from Bel on August 25, 2022, 11:26 pm
you say that you are looking for someone who is competent and hard-working; I tend to group these two categories into one (competence), as I see being “hard-working” as complying with promised output and deadlines, which to me is part of being competent; so maybe it could be a matter of better defining work-scope and deadlines?

From my experience, competent freelancers (that have advanced skills) that have a lot of financial success, reputation and many options tend to become lazier or less driven over time, and will try to choose the path of least resistance (be it finding easier jobs, outsourcing, or simply procrastinating/being a lot less productive). That is not always the case though, but usually this kind of profiles tend to be less loyal in my experience.

Quote from Bel on August 25, 2022, 11:26 pm
you speak about loyalty, but from your examples it seems these people were plain dishonest; here what could be helpful is honing further the skill to recognize these kinds of people (dark triads or just plain takers) in advance.

That's a very helpful advice and I should definitely try to pay more attention to that. However, I've noticed than in cases where the stakes are high, otherwise honest people with low dark triad traits tend to betray, and it is very difficult to notice.

To give an example, I have a friend who was selling a product online very successfully (let's say he was making $15K of profit per day) and his marketing operator seemed to be a competent, hard-working and loyal person (I've talked with him several times and would never have suspected him of betrayal). After a while, I've learned from this friend that the product "stopped working" (which seemed normal as this tends to happen often) so that he was not profitable anymore. However, I've learned recently completely by chance that the same marketing operator now has a shop selling the same product that was created exactly when my friend's product "stopped working". A perfect betrayal that would almost have been impossible to prove, and that was much more profitable for this freelancer. And I've seen lot of similar things from closers, software developers and other freelancers.

What's frightening is that a lot of time, it's almost impossible to spot the betrayal, or it happens only several years after the damage has been irreversibly done.

Lucio Buffalmano, Ali Scarlett and 3 other users have reacted to this post.

#5 · August 26, 2022, 10:26 am

Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on August 26, 2022, 10:26 am
Great topic, and I'll want to think it over better.
Now just for some higher-level thoughts:
Intrinsic market dynamics means it's intrinsically difficult: they're part of the fun of doing business
I'd also sart with the reality of the situation: it may be an issue not so much in your hiring or method, but in the market itself.
Finding the perfect employee / contractor is no different than the "perfect girlfriend (/boyfriend)", "perfect friend", "perfect business partner", etc.
It's difficult to find them because, as Bel wonderfully put it: it's difficult to even become really good at anything, and it's even rarer to find someone who then has loyalty and industriousness besides great skills.
And if it were easy to find these diamonds and keep them, everyone would, and it wouldn't even be as entertaining.
A good reframe is to see it as part of the challenge and fun of doing business.
Of course, that is not to say that one cannot improve, quite the opposite, it simply starts with a mindset of accepting -or even welcoming- that the task is challenging in itself.
Mindset switch: demand competence, but not loyalty
Personally, I "solved" the loyalty problem by going at the root cause: not expecting it, not demanding it -not even wanting it?-.
The way I see it, it's my job to make them want to keep staying/cooperating with me, be it in friendships, dating, and even work (up to a certain point and with limitations and exceptions, of course: a committed relationship for example entails faithfulness so it's fair to expect it and demand it, same as for contract employees, but still... It might nonetheless a good idea to take more of that responsibility over and come into with the expectations that people are imperfect and may fuck up or betray).
Of course, it's easier with relationships and more difficult at work since the exchanges are more monetary/calculative WIIFM type of exchanges, but you can still do a lot -like what you've been doing, for example-.
Basic approach: test many, stick with few
Probably my demands and needs are much smaller for TPM -very likely they are-.
But the good old intuitive method of "test many, stick with the few" worked for TPM's needs.
This is like putting the law of the large number on your side: yes, the diamonds may be rare, but if you keep picking up rocks and throwing the bad ones away, eventually you'll stumble upon a diamond -or anything that may be close enough to a diamond-.
Of course you're already doing it, so then the challenges become:
where are the "caves" with more diamonds to increase the odds
how to recognize the rocks/diamonds before you even pick them up
how to test the diamond-looking ones early on to avoid cheats
how to hold to those diamonds
...

Great topic, and I'll want to think it over better.

Now just for some higher-level thoughts:

Intrinsic market dynamics means it's intrinsically difficult: they're part of the fun of doing business

I'd also sart with the reality of the situation: it may be an issue not so much in your hiring or method, but in the market itself.

Finding the perfect employee / contractor is no different than the "perfect girlfriend (/boyfriend)", "perfect friend", "perfect business partner", etc.

It's difficult to find them because, as Bel wonderfully put it: it's difficult to even become really good at anything, and it's even rarer to find someone who then has loyalty and industriousness besides great skills.

And if it were easy to find these diamonds and keep them, everyone would, and it wouldn't even be as entertaining.

A good reframe is to see it as part of the challenge and fun of doing business.

Of course, that is not to say that one cannot improve, quite the opposite, it simply starts with a mindset of accepting -or even welcoming- that the task is challenging in itself.

Mindset switch: demand competence, but not loyalty

Personally, I "solved" the loyalty problem by going at the root cause: not expecting it, not demanding it -not even wanting it?-.

The way I see it, it's my job to make them want to keep staying/cooperating with me, be it in friendships, dating, and even work (up to a certain point and with limitations and exceptions, of course: a committed relationship for example entails faithfulness so it's fair to expect it and demand it, same as for contract employees, but still... It might nonetheless a good idea to take more of that responsibility over and come into with the expectations that people are imperfect and may fuck up or betray).

Of course, it's easier with relationships and more difficult at work since the exchanges are more monetary/calculative WIIFM type of exchanges, but you can still do a lot -like what you've been doing, for example-.

Basic approach: test many, stick with few

Probably my demands and needs are much smaller for TPM -very likely they are-.

But the good old intuitive method of "test many, stick with the few" worked for TPM's needs.

This is like putting the law of the large number on your side: yes, the diamonds may be rare, but if you keep picking up rocks and throwing the bad ones away, eventually you'll stumble upon a diamond -or anything that may be close enough to a diamond-.

Of course you're already doing it, so then the challenges become:

where are the "caves" with more diamonds to increase the odds
how to recognize the rocks/diamonds before you even pick them up
how to test the diamond-looking ones early on to avoid cheats
how to hold to those diamonds
...

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#6 · August 26, 2022, 10:31 am

Quote from Alex on August 26, 2022, 6:08 am
To give an example, I have a friend who was selling a product online very successfully (let's say he was making $15K of profit per day) and his marketing operator seemed to be a competent, hard-working and loyal person (I've talked with him several times and would never have suspected him of betrayal). After a while, I've learned from this friend that the product "stopped working" (which seemed normal as this tends to happen often) so that he was not profitable anymore. However, I've learned recently completely by chance that the same marketing operator now has a shop selling the same product that was created exactly when my friend's product "stopped working". A perfect betrayal that would almost have been impossible to prove, and that was much more profitable for this freelancer. And I've seen lot of similar things from closers, software developers and other freelancers.
What's frightening is that a lot of time, it's almost impossible to spot the betrayal, or it happens only several years after the damage has been irreversibly done.

Wow, crazy stuff man, if you can or feel like sharing more, I'd be happy to read.

This is where Cover Your Ass mindset and techniques come in handy.

For example, to never have one single person with a full overview of the whole process. If he does marketing, he doesn't get to know where the product is sourced.
Or if he really is so crucial to the operation, then it may make sense to give him a stake in the form of percentages of sales, or even ownership.
Make him part of the profit so that growing sales mean more for him, better align the interests, so he's far more likely to keep working hard with you (there's a big mindset switch between salaried and part owner, even if that ownership is small, it changes many people's mindsets and attitudes).

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#7 · August 26, 2022, 11:01 am

Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on August 26, 2022, 10:31 am
Wow, crazy stuff man, if you can or feel like sharing more, I'd be happy to read.

I know... I had a burnout few years back after witnessing so many dirty betrayals like that as I was still in my "naive" phase. Would never have expected human nature to be so dark when money and power are involved. This was a huge redpill for me, and to this day, I still tend to be a bit paranoid because of that.

I will probably create a separate thread in a private section to share stories of some betrayals I've experienced or witnessed, much to learn from them and I'm pretty sure we could come up with great insights on how to increase immunity to betrayal from everyone here.

Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on August 26, 2022, 10:31 am
This is where Cover Your Ass mindset and techniques come in handy.

That's a really important technique, but not always completely possible if your business model or product are not very sophisticated. Sure, if your product is really advanced such as an Iphone it might be harder to copy, but it is very easy to find factories with most products and active production lines nowadays. Even Apple has a lot of products copied such as their Airpods.

Also, sometimes if different people work on several parts of a project so that they don't get a holistic view of the project, you might not be able to do the "assembly" yourself and might need the help of another person to do it.

I guess that there is no perfect protection in this case, but that one can only combine several techniques to reduce risk as much as possible.

Offering profit is also a good idea and almost a prerequisite to increase loyalty, albeit not always enough in my experience.

But anyways really great advices, thanks Lucio!

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#8 · August 27, 2022, 5:38 pm

After Lucio's awesome posts, I would also throw out there that you could consider working with people living in your same country / city, whom you can meet in person.

I understand this may increase costs, but it could also act as a buffer for a more personal relationship and for more capacity to enforce agreements.

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#9 · August 27, 2022, 5:52 pm

Quote from Bel on August 27, 2022, 5:38 pm
After Lucio's awesome posts, I would also throw out there that you could consider working with people living in your same country / city, whom you can meet in person.
I understand this may increase costs, but it could also act as a buffer for a more personal relationship and for more capacity to enforce agreements.

Great idea.

And to further add on it:

If you have -or as soon as you have- enough power, clout, or reputation, you can demand to move to your HQ.

That also frames the interaction as you being "the prize", higher power, and operating on your home turf.
While they moved for you, chasing and investing and, if foreigners, as guests in a new country.

Does a lot of good things from you, including reducing fuckery and increasing compliance and, in all likelihood, even appreciation for the opportunity and for you, and more loyalty and attachment.

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#10 · August 28, 2022, 12:26 pm

Thanks a lot Bel and Lucio, these are really great advices! I will definitely add them to my "power toolbox" for overcoming this problem and keep you updated if I have any improvements in the next few months.

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