How to handle people latching onto something one says to one-up another person
Yeah, two more great approaches by John and Transitioned.
And on this one:
Quote from Bel on January 23, 2023, 1:29 amHowever, even without knowing how to handle his move, just knowing what he was doing made all the difference.
Before TPM, this guy would play similar moves and would be successful in having me and my partner argue one with the other.
Now no more, we both understood he was playing a nasty game even though I was unable to check it.
Yep, thank you for highlighting this.
That's another advantage of power-awareness I hadn't thought of and never mentioned before.
I reflected on this and have additional examples and points on the "latch-onto power move".
We discussed how it is a form of manipulative thread-expanding: quoting Lucio:
Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on January 24, 2023, 3:41 amWhether one wants to come up with a fancy new name or not, at the core, it's a manipulative thread expansion:
- Tread origination: Start from what you or someone else did or say
- Thread expansion: Jump in, comment, ask a question, criticize, etc...
- Spin it into something value-taking for the originator and/or for a third party (something the originator never meant)
Further example of the verbal latch-onto power move (or "manipulative thread-expanding")
I remember my former high-Mach boss once fell for this exact same move, done onto him by a higher-level partner of the firm we were in at the time.
Btw, he himself was probably playing a nasty move, and this example seems nice because it also shows how power moves can all intersect and superimpose on one another.
A female colleague of mine was in the hall of the firm, near several secretaries. My former boss approached her and said:
Former boss: Hey Angie! Aren't you dressed a bit too provocative today?
At that exact same moment, a founding partner of that firm (ie higher level than my former boss) was nearby. He approached and started raging:
Founding partner: (apparently to Angie) Yeah! (<------latching-on to what my boss had said) THIS IS NOT THE WAY TO COME DRESSED AT WORK AT ALL!!! (shouting very loudly) HOW LONG DO I HAVE TO SAY THIS AGAIN AND AGAIN BEFORE YOU START DRESSING AS A LAWYER, ANGIE!? Make sure next time you are dressed professionally!!
At the time I thought the founding partner was disrespecting Angie, but he really was power moving on my former boss, to make it seem he had started the tirade.
The founding partner then immediately left the room before any answer was possible.
My former boss told Angie to come with him, left the room, and when they were alone he went (as Angie later told me):
Former boss: Angie, I'm sorry - I'm so sorry.
In essence, this ass****, who was himself power moving on Angie in front of the secretaries to devalue Angie as a lawyer, totally fell for the higher level power move that the founding parner played on him.
It is also interesting to note that he did apologize - a once in a lifetime for him - but only after removing themselves from the secretaries presence.
Manipulative thread-expanding (or "latch-onto" power move) can also be done (not verbally, but) positionally or situationally
Power University clarifies that standing near a person, and maybe lightly touching that person, while he or she is dealing with another, is a form of clear non-verbal support.
In other words, spatial positioning and physical closeness subcommunicate "support".
Now, I understand this same principle can be used manipulatively, ie for a manipulator or power mover to fake being supported by another person (and thus, if that's the aim, to paint bad said other person).
I have two real-life examples of this highly manipulative, nastiest of the nastiest power move.
Example one: asshole tried to destroy my reputation in several local restaurants by behaving badly
Before I realized what he was doing, the guy who (still) owes me dinner was frequently present in a group of people I was with, sometimes at dinners.
It happened once or twice that the restaurant was chosen by me, and was a place I frequented rather often, and liked. The owner of the restaurant also knew me, since I went there frequently.
So that time we got to this new (for the guy and his partner) restaurant (which was one of my favorites), and he orders lamb.
When the lamb comes, he starts talking to his partner and says:
Asshole: What's with this lamb? Don't you think this is not lamb, but pork meat?
Partner of asshole: Yeah, it sure seems totally that way. (<---------------- these preceding exchanges with his partner were just a decoy for me, to cloud my view)
Asshole: WAITER!
(the owner of the place comes to our table)
Asshole: Sorry, but this is not lamb. This is pork meat.
Owner: Excuse me sir, but this is lamb. I bought it and cooked it myself.
Asshole: No sorry don't bullshit me. This is totally pork.
Owner: (getting angry) How can you be insiting on this! This is lamb! It's not that if you say it's not it's going to be pork!
Asshole: OK, OK.
Asshole: (to his partner) Do you still think it's pork?
Partner of asshole: Of course, see that bone there... (<---------------- this closing exchange with his partner again is a decoy for me, to cloud my view and avoid I may think he did it on purpose)
Now, the point is this: this bastard was trying to ruin my reputation at the place I loved. I'm sure he totally fabricated the pork/lamb bullshit just to ruin my relationship with the owner of the place.
And I have to admit it worked. I didn't say anything (as I didn't understand that us being seated at the same table should have led me to block him by default to not be associated and "thread-expanded" by his bullshit) and I never went there again.
In other words, he thread-expanded on our physical association (being seated at the same table) to make it seem I "supported" him in being an asshole to the restaurant owner.
Example two: another woman tries to play Bella the same way at the gym - but Bella handled it perfectly
Bella was recently at her gym, talking with a person at the front office.
She was joking with him on the fact that the gym had promised a discount that was unusable for various reasons.
Suddenty another woman - who everyone tends to avoid, and now I understand why - gets very close to Bella and interjects on another, different topic.
Manipulative (physical) thread-expander: (to front office person, while very close to Bella) I also have something to say. IT'S NOT ADMISSIBLE THAT YOU HAD ME PAY X AND THEN DID Z!!! THIS IS NOT HOW A SERIOUS GYM SHOULD WORK!!!! (shouting)
Bella immediately had the urge to get away. And she did, first distancing herself and then going out of the room altogether.
While she was going away, she heard the front-office person saying:
Front-office person: (to manipulative thread-expander) You know, joking is one thing, but now I'm going to get serious.
We later talked about the event and we realized that this woman (the thread-expander) was just trying to ruin the relationship between Bella and the front-office person by physically getting close Bella while she shouted at him.
Bella told me that later, the same woman started another tirade against the gym while in another room with Bella - who immediately left again.
And that, finally, Bella saw this woman go again to speak with the front-office person. Maybe to apologize, as she had failed in her manipulative ruse - ie being "left alone" clearly had surfaced that SHE was raging on the person, not Bella.
Yes, very interesting, Bel.
The first one, a bit of a different use case.
But that second example of Bella at the gym was indeed a good example of manipulative thread expansion / latching onto.
And she was trying to "gang up" and recruit more social power for her own attack.
Bella did well to distance herself just to make sure that she was not part of that "barbaric gang" 🙂
Quote from Bel on February 1, 2023, 11:16 amI reflected on this and have additional examples and points on the "latch-onto power move".
We discussed how it is a form of manipulative thread-expanding: quoting Lucio:
Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on January 24, 2023, 3:41 amWhether one wants to come up with a fancy new name or not, at the core, it's a manipulative thread expansion:
- Tread origination: Start from what you or someone else did or say
- Thread expansion: Jump in, comment, ask a question, criticize, etc...
- Spin it into something value-taking for the originator and/or for a third party (something the originator never meant)
Further example of the verbal latch-onto power move (or "manipulative thread-expanding")
I remember my former high-Mach boss once fell for this exact same move, done onto him by a higher-level partner of the firm we were in at the time.
Btw, he himself was probably playing a nasty move, and this example seems nice because it also shows how power moves can all intersect and superimpose on one another.
A female colleague of mine was in the hall of the firm, near several secretaries. My former boss approached her and said:
Former boss: Hey Angie! Aren't you dressed a bit too provocative today?
At that exact same moment, a founding partner of that firm (ie higher level than my former boss) was nearby. He approached and started raging:
Founding partner: (apparently to Angie) Yeah! (<------latching-on to what my boss had said) THIS IS NOT THE WAY TO COME DRESSED AT WORK AT ALL!!! (shouting very loudly) HOW LONG DO I HAVE TO SAY THIS AGAIN AND AGAIN BEFORE YOU START DRESSING AS A LAWYER, ANGIE!? Make sure next time you are dressed professionally!!
At the time I thought the founding partner was disrespecting Angie, but he really was power moving on my former boss, to make it seem he had started the tirade.
The founding partner then immediately left the room before any answer was possible.
My former boss told Angie to come with him, left the room, and when they were alone he went (as Angie later told me):
Former boss: Angie, I'm sorry - I'm so sorry.
In essence, this ass****, who was himself power moving on Angie in front of the secretaries to devalue Angie as a lawyer, totally fell for the higher level power move that the founding parner played on him.
It is also interesting to note that he did apologize - a once in a lifetime for him - but only after removing themselves from the secretaries presence.
Very interesting situation.
And I'm surprised that people get to say those things, and even yell like that in an office -to a woman, too. In a way, I'm glad that cancel culture hasn't taken over in Italy LOL :D-.
Yes it's true it was a thread expansion, but I'm not sure it was "manipulative" in the sense that the intended victim was your boss -albeit you know better since you were there-.
And from the post, I'm not sure that the "real" power move was on your boss only, or even mainly on him.
It certainly was on the woman, too -and it seems to me, a lot more costly on her-.
Sure, maybe the woman didn't matter as much in terms of org chart and power dynamics.
So if the founder wanted to hurt your boss no matter the collateral damage, he did it -but seems such a convoluted and high cost way of harming someone, that I don't think this was all premeditated-.
Also because the founder paid a big price, too.
The founder took it to such a different level that most people wouldn't mainly blame your boss just because he initiated it.
Finally, Angie said to you that the boss apologized.
And that may be true, but she may have put her own spin on it to defend her own reputation.
Thank you so much for this Lucio, it's very helpful.
That workplace was a cove of manipulations and counter-manipulations, so I think you're right: the founder was mainly discharging rage on both of them.
On woman for being "attached" to my former boss (she worked mainly with him), and on my former boss for being in the process of going away with clients of the firm - which the founder, at that point, had already picked upon. Two birds with one stone.
Also, I find very manipulative people often taint others at the price of their own dignity and image. While normal people care about how they come off, these people just don't care. They're willing to harm themselves to "win". They probably aren't even able to control their impulses. And, the more they rise, the worse they behave.
And, in a place full of dark people, nobody comes out clean.
Very interesting cases indeed! Thank you Bel and Lucio!
It's crazy how many different power and social dynamics exist.