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"I feel bad" power move

#1 · December 16, 2022, 10:03 pm

Quote from John Freeman on December 16, 2022, 10:03 pm
Hello everyone,
I'm not feeling at ease about this because I'm outing a family member, however so be it it's important for context.
Brief context
We "inherited" money from my late father who died 10 years ago. My mother found a bank account (when? how?) with money on it, which exact amount was not known. She needed our ID cards and signature to get the money from the bank. We provided it. After my birthday recently I received 8958 CHF from my father's account which is a funny coincidence since my remaining student debt was 8960. I paid it all, understanding that it was my share. My mother never talked to me about it, I thought it was all settled.
Last week at my sisters' place she's distraught because my mother told her that:
The amount she received (the same as me) was actually to hide it from police/state/authority she owes money to. So she sent it to us in order for it not to be seized. She asked me if she contacted me about it. I said not at all. I was a bit surprised but not so much as my mother could typically do that.
She's owed half of the money (8960 CHF) and that my sister should give her back a certain amount. She guilted her nastily, etc. so my sister was not feeling good. She's also moving out at the moment so she did not need the added stress as she does not have the money currently.
I said to her that I was going to take care of this.
A couple days ago, my mother contacted on WhatsApp me "to propose me something to do", it was for the same day and the next 2 days. Well it's too late, I already have things planned so I tell her. I tell her right away that "Yes, it's important that we talk about the "inheritance"", fully understanding that it was not to see me but to talk about money. She does not defend so she accepts it's the reason.
I tell her that we would like to have the bank statement because for us it would be clearer. Since it's a mess, we thought it was money from life insurance, etc. Nothing made sense so I wanted to see clearer. My mother tries to guilt me so I tell her it's not working anymore. She tries all kinds of very nasty tactics (especially from a mother to a son). I check her ("Thank you for being careful with the words you use" when she says we have a "sick dialog"), stay polite, warm and respectful.
I propose her that we meet with my sister and that it's only fair that she shows us the bank statement. She accuses me of not trusting her and tasks me with asking the bank. Of course I'm not going to do that it's her responsibility. Here's an excerpt:
...
Me: One must stay calm.
Me: Why don't you want to print this bank statement?
Her: Cam? You never wrote me so much (guilt-tripping: you don't contact me: she's been doing this one for more than 10 years and does not contact me)... Sorry my beloved son (not very loving dialog so far: she wants the money). I feel very very bad STOP!!!
So this is great both shaming and guilt-tripping. Because she cannot manipulate my feelings directly, she will resorts to her feeling bad to put me in the perpetrator's shoes and her as the victim (her favorite role of course).
It's a very nasty power move. Instead of taking responsibility for your emotions, you blame the other person for how (supposedly: another manipulation) you feel. Dark stuff.
Here is an excerpt of the conversation to get a taste of the tone. I was quite proud as now I'm much more higher power than her so all her manipulation fall flat. However, I can see that the manipulative person will go darker and darker or lower and lower to find a chink in your armour. That is the end of the conversation:
...
Me: One must stay calm.
Me: Why don't you want to print this bank statement?
Her: Calm? You never wrote me so much (guilt-tripping: you don't contact me aka you're a bad son: she's been doing this one for more than 10 years and does not contact me herself)... Sorry my beloved son (not very loving dialog so far: she wants the money). I feel very very bad STOP!!!
Me: these are difficult conversations it's true. I stayed polite and respectful. I wsh you a good day anyway!
Her: for me it's unbearable! I won't answer to you anymore: enough is enough I have my limits.
Me: once again good day! It's too bad that you are reacting this way.
Her: you don't know me, you don't respect me, you don't trust me! How should I react? My day? How will be my day when my son signifies he does not trust his mommy? For the last time ask the bank. As them explanations that you think are missing to you. Full stop.
So you see the full hysteria as she goes totally emotional for emotional manipulation and blackmail.
The reality of the situation is:
It's my sister that pushed my mother to do the paperwork to get the money
We are the 3 his successors
There is a lot of missing or muddy information
She does not want to issue the bank statement
She wants half of the money
All the rest is about power dynamics, frame control, etc. it's the "how", the "what" is above.
I asked my financial advisor (I have one now) what she thinks and she agrees with me. It's totally normal that my mother provides the bank statement. She congratulated me on staying rational and not emotional. I actually believe that my mother cut it in half and sent it to us. I told her I trust and believe her. However, it's too much of a mess so I need to see things clearly. But the more she tries to guilt us, to run around the bush, the more I think her aggression is a way to hide some kind of deception, which nature I don't know.
So yeah, unfortunately my mother is like that I found it late in life. It's always a bit sad to realise this kind of things. Anyway that's life.
I created a WhatsApp group with her and my sister to talk about it with date proposals. No answers so far. It's on her. She won't guilt me.
Power dynamics
She needs the money from us. Either she complies or she's not going to get it. I want this bank statement and I'm not going to ask it to the bank. I'm not going to give her the money until I see it. She's been doing too much shit until now. Now we're doing things my way: transparent, clear, honest and open.
Manipulation tactics
Her favorite is: you're a bad son/daughter and then she goes on any variation of it (see above). Real nasty stuff.
Cheers!
PS: I'm taking the opportunity to once more thank this forum. I grew so much. In the past she would have found a way to hurt me and I would have bent. I'm not bending anymore. She manipulated us all our lives, this is ending now.

Hello everyone,

I'm not feeling at ease about this because I'm outing a family member, however so be it it's important for context.

Brief context

We "inherited" money from my late father who died 10 years ago. My mother found a bank account (when? how?) with money on it, which exact amount was not known. She needed our ID cards and signature to get the money from the bank. We provided it. After my birthday recently I received 8958 CHF from my father's account which is a funny coincidence since my remaining student debt was 8960. I paid it all, understanding that it was my share. My mother never talked to me about it, I thought it was all settled.

Last week at my sisters' place she's distraught because my mother told her that:

The amount she received (the same as me) was actually to hide it from police/state/authority she owes money to. So she sent it to us in order for it not to be seized. She asked me if she contacted me about it. I said not at all. I was a bit surprised but not so much as my mother could typically do that.
She's owed half of the money (8960 CHF) and that my sister should give her back a certain amount. She guilted her nastily, etc. so my sister was not feeling good. She's also moving out at the moment so she did not need the added stress as she does not have the money currently.

I said to her that I was going to take care of this.

A couple days ago, my mother contacted on WhatsApp me "to propose me something to do", it was for the same day and the next 2 days. Well it's too late, I already have things planned so I tell her. I tell her right away that "Yes, it's important that we talk about the "inheritance"", fully understanding that it was not to see me but to talk about money. She does not defend so she accepts it's the reason.

I tell her that we would like to have the bank statement because for us it would be clearer. Since it's a mess, we thought it was money from life insurance, etc. Nothing made sense so I wanted to see clearer. My mother tries to guilt me so I tell her it's not working anymore. She tries all kinds of very nasty tactics (especially from a mother to a son). I check her ("Thank you for being careful with the words you use" when she says we have a "sick dialog"), stay polite, warm and respectful.

I propose her that we meet with my sister and that it's only fair that she shows us the bank statement. She accuses me of not trusting her and tasks me with asking the bank. Of course I'm not going to do that it's her responsibility. Here's an excerpt:

...
Me: One must stay calm.
Me: Why don't you want to print this bank statement?
Her: Cam? You never wrote me so much (guilt-tripping: you don't contact me: she's been doing this one for more than 10 years and does not contact me)... Sorry my beloved son (not very loving dialog so far: she wants the money). I feel very very bad STOP!!!

So this is great both shaming and guilt-tripping. Because she cannot manipulate my feelings directly, she will resorts to her feeling bad to put me in the perpetrator's shoes and her as the victim (her favorite role of course).

It's a very nasty power move. Instead of taking responsibility for your emotions, you blame the other person for how (supposedly: another manipulation) you feel. Dark stuff.

Here is an excerpt of the conversation to get a taste of the tone. I was quite proud as now I'm much more higher power than her so all her manipulation fall flat. However, I can see that the manipulative person will go darker and darker or lower and lower to find a chink in your armour. That is the end of the conversation:

...
Me: One must stay calm.
Me: Why don't you want to print this bank statement?
Her: Calm? You never wrote me so much (guilt-tripping: you don't contact me aka you're a bad son: she's been doing this one for more than 10 years and does not contact me herself)... Sorry my beloved son (not very loving dialog so far: she wants the money). I feel very very bad STOP!!!
Me: these are difficult conversations it's true. I stayed polite and respectful. I wsh you a good day anyway!
Her: for me it's unbearable! I won't answer to you anymore: enough is enough I have my limits.
Me: once again good day! It's too bad that you are reacting this way.
Her: you don't know me, you don't respect me, you don't trust me! How should I react? My day? How will be my day when my son signifies he does not trust his mommy? For the last time ask the bank. As them explanations that you think are missing to you. Full stop.

So you see the full hysteria as she goes totally emotional for emotional manipulation and blackmail.

The reality of the situation is:

It's my sister that pushed my mother to do the paperwork to get the money
We are the 3 his successors
There is a lot of missing or muddy information
She does not want to issue the bank statement
She wants half of the money

All the rest is about power dynamics, frame control, etc. it's the "how", the "what" is above.

I asked my financial advisor (I have one now) what she thinks and she agrees with me. It's totally normal that my mother provides the bank statement. She congratulated me on staying rational and not emotional. I actually believe that my mother cut it in half and sent it to us. I told her I trust and believe her. However, it's too much of a mess so I need to see things clearly. But the more she tries to guilt us, to run around the bush, the more I think her aggression is a way to hide some kind of deception, which nature I don't know.

So yeah, unfortunately my mother is like that I found it late in life. It's always a bit sad to realise this kind of things. Anyway that's life.

I created a WhatsApp group with her and my sister to talk about it with date proposals. No answers so far. It's on her. She won't guilt me.

Power dynamics

She needs the money from us. Either she complies or she's not going to get it. I want this bank statement and I'm not going to ask it to the bank. I'm not going to give her the money until I see it. She's been doing too much shit until now. Now we're doing things my way: transparent, clear, honest and open.

Manipulation tactics

Her favorite is: you're a bad son/daughter and then she goes on any variation of it (see above). Real nasty stuff.

Cheers!

PS: I'm taking the opportunity to once more thank this forum. I grew so much. In the past she would have found a way to hurt me and I would have bent. I'm not bending anymore. She manipulated us all our lives, this is ending now.

Lucio Buffalmano, Mats G and Deleted user have reacted to this post.

#2 · December 17, 2022, 4:38 am

Cheers John, great awareness, well analyzed, and properly handled it.

I also liked how you scheduled for all of you to meet, turning the table from the "divide and conquer" to "unite and conquer".

I agree with you: it's sad to realize a parent's manipulation, many of us are in that same boat.
But it's a heck a lot better to realize and adjust, than to always be a manipulated puppet.
And it's a heck a heck a lot better -a hero's journey, in a way- to realize and rid oneself of the same games, power moves. and tendencies, demand the same behavior from the people around, and break the generational vicious cycle.

As for the situation, this is just me and my very personal feedback:

I wouldn't send anything back.

And I'd even look into it to see if there is more -I agree with you there might be more-.
At that point, I may even go after that more money if it's fairly yours -or leave it in a "keep that money just so that I can pay you out of my life" type of power move-.

Also, I'd be careful with asking for statements.
You know what the manipulator does when he has only one option to get what he wants: keep manipulating.
So I wouldn't want them to start thinking about forging the statements -and then you're even worse off: chasing for the "real" statements while they know a (false) evidence that they're telling the truth and that you're being so untrustworthy-.

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#3 · December 18, 2022, 10:18 pm

Quote from John Freeman on December 18, 2022, 10:18 pm
Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on December 17, 2022, 4:38 am
Cheers John, great awareness, well analyzed, and properly handled it.
Thanks Lucio, it's great and encouraging feed-back!
I also liked how you scheduled for all of you to meet, turning the table from the "divide and conquer" to "unite and conquer".
Thanks! Going Eagle as much as possible :)
I agree with you: it's sad to realize a parent's manipulation, many of us are in that same boat.
But it's a heck a lot better to realize and adjust, than to always be a manipulated puppet.
And it's a heck a heck a lot better -a hero's journey, in a way- to realize and rid oneself of the same games, power moves. and tendencies, demand the same behavior from the people around, and break the generational vicious cycle.
Deep stuff. I agree this is my journey. Vulnerability: I decided not to have children until I cleaned/heal this stuff. So you perceived it right: I think we have a responsibility towards our children and people around us to do this work. People who don't are not taking this responsibility I think. Their choice and I respect it. It does have consequences though.
As for the situation, this is just me and my very personal feedback:
I wouldn't send anything back.
And I'd even look into it to see if there is more -I agree with you there might be more-.
At that point, I may even go after that more money if it's fairly yours -or leave it in a "keep that money just so that I can pay you out of my life" type of power move-.
That's what my sister is planning. My mother's apartment is a mess (she's a hoarder: unfortunately. The true kind: the apartment is filled with objects) and we will have to spend time and money to clean it. So she thinks that this money is due for when we will clean the apartment. She wants to pay people to do that in order that we don't. I estimate the work at about 1 week of 8 hours per day with 2-3 people. There is 1 garage and 1 cellar that are also filled with objects, most of it junk.
Also, I'd be careful with asking for statements.
You know what the manipulator does when he has only one option to get what he wants: keep manipulating.
So I wouldn't want them to start thinking about forging the statements -and then you're even worse off: chasing for the "real" statements while they know a (false) evidence that they're telling the truth and that you're being so untrustworthy-.
True.
I did not get this sentence though: "chasing for the "real" statements while they know a (false) evidence that they're telling the truth and that you're being so untrustworthy". Could you rephrase it please? Maybe too many Russian dolls for me here. :P I understand it's a game of "I know that you know that I think..." and an ironic part but not much more.

Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on December 17, 2022, 4:38 am
Cheers John, great awareness, well analyzed, and properly handled it.

Thanks Lucio, it's great and encouraging feed-back!

I also liked how you scheduled for all of you to meet, turning the table from the "divide and conquer" to "unite and conquer".

Thanks! Going Eagle as much as possible :)

I agree with you: it's sad to realize a parent's manipulation, many of us are in that same boat.
But it's a heck a lot better to realize and adjust, than to always be a manipulated puppet.
And it's a heck a heck a lot better -a hero's journey, in a way- to realize and rid oneself of the same games, power moves. and tendencies, demand the same behavior from the people around, and break the generational vicious cycle.

Deep stuff. I agree this is my journey. Vulnerability: I decided not to have children until I cleaned/heal this stuff. So you perceived it right: I think we have a responsibility towards our children and people around us to do this work. People who don't are not taking this responsibility I think. Their choice and I respect it. It does have consequences though.

As for the situation, this is just me and my very personal feedback:
I wouldn't send anything back.
And I'd even look into it to see if there is more -I agree with you there might be more-.
At that point, I may even go after that more money if it's fairly yours -or leave it in a "keep that money just so that I can pay you out of my life" type of power move-.

That's what my sister is planning. My mother's apartment is a mess (she's a hoarder: unfortunately. The true kind: the apartment is filled with objects) and we will have to spend time and money to clean it. So she thinks that this money is due for when we will clean the apartment. She wants to pay people to do that in order that we don't. I estimate the work at about 1 week of 8 hours per day with 2-3 people. There is 1 garage and 1 cellar that are also filled with objects, most of it junk.

Also, I'd be careful with asking for statements.
You know what the manipulator does when he has only one option to get what he wants: keep manipulating.
So I wouldn't want them to start thinking about forging the statements -and then you're even worse off: chasing for the "real" statements while they know a (false) evidence that they're telling the truth and that you're being so untrustworthy-.

True.

I did not get this sentence though: "chasing for the "real" statements while they know a (false) evidence that they're telling the truth and that you're being so untrustworthy". Could you rephrase it please? Maybe too many Russian dolls for me here. :P I understand it's a game of "I know that you know that I think..." and an ironic part but not much more.

#4 · December 19, 2022, 5:34 am

Thank you for the answer, John, some great mindsets in there as well.

To clarify on this:

Quote from John Freeman on December 18, 2022, 10:18 pm
I did not get this sentence though: "chasing for the "real" statements while they know a (false) evidence that they're telling the truth and that you're being so untrustworthy". Could you rephrase it please?

This is all about social maneuvering.

What I mean is that:

Your behavior of "demanding the statements" is high power, direct, and straight.

And that's great.

Unless... Your main goal was to see the real statements (which probably is only one goal for you, not the main one).

One of the issues with straight talk is that it's best used with other straight people.

In this case, if the bank statements reveal some shenanigans happened in the past, which is very possible, you leave her with few options:

Show the statements and confess to the lie -can you trust many people to do that? Probably not, so you're probably guiding her towards:
Never show the statements and keep playing "offended they even doubted me" -not good for you-
Falsify the statements -probably even worst-

So if one wanted to see those statements, a more Machiavellian approach would probably work better.
Just as an example:

Hey, no worries, it's just money, who cares.
You're the wife who's been by his side for so long and we're happy if you're happy. If you need some financial support, happy to help.
Let's sit down and talk about it.

Now you can move in person, where you can maneuver even better to eventually get to those statements.
For example, play dumb, play like you don't care, get statement access with an excuse to do something else, get the banker's contact, etc. etc.

That being said, your approach is still great.
And it's perfect if you wanted to put an end to the games, and shut the door.

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#5 · December 19, 2022, 10:32 pm

Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on December 19, 2022, 5:34 am
One of the issues with straight talk is that it's best used with other straight people.

Yes, I thought about that as well after the WhatsApp exchange.

That being said, your approach is still great.
And it's perfect if you wanted to put an end to the games, and shut the door.

Thank you!

So yes you raise a fair point I had not considered before.

Actually my conscious/unconscious goals were:

Set things straight in this specific instance (straight-talking/bullshit cleaning)
Improve the family dynamics: it was not my intention to take the family's leadership (I'm the youngest, my father was kind of an absent father so no proper male leadership in my home) but I had to as this was badly managed. I also did it when I created the WhatsApp group (we did not have any group before) (proper family dynamics)
Assert new boundaries/dynamics with my mother (unconscious goal)
Show my mother that I'm not as manipulable as before (unconscious goal: display of power awareness as a display of power)
Have a fair sharing of the heritage between 3 of us so nobody feels cheated (justice)
Relieve my sister's stress as I'm tired to see my mother taking advantage of her emotionally in exchange for watching my sister's kids (protection)
Show my mother that I am more powerful than her now and that the power dynamics shifted (throwing my weight around: well, everyone has an ego right? :P )

Thanks for the inspiration, this helped me to dig deeper into my mind!

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