I LOVE toxic workplaces
Hello guys,
the title of this thread is willingly provocative. My intention is to share the realization I had that the more political and/or toxic a culture is, the more we need to learn about politics, social skills and influence. So this is a huge learning opportunity.
What do you think?
I think toxic workplaces are great if you want to rise to power quickly and you know how to play the game better than anyone else, and also help you learn power dynamics in the process. But there are a few caveats:
- If you're on the losing end, and are unable to overcome the political obstacles, it could be very bad for your health. Imagine if you've never been to the gym before and tried to bench 250 lbs. Yeah that's not gonna be healthy.
- Most companies that have toxic workplaces are usually not run very well and have a very bad reputation. So even if you conquer the most toxic workplaces, you'll carry your bad habits into your future prospective companies.
In Power University, Lucio mentions that people who grew up in poor neighborhoods end up being aggressive and kind of nasty (or something to that effect IIRC), and although the aggression helps when you want to survive in a poor, shitty neighborhood, it will be detrimental to helping you move up. As someone who grew up in that sort of neighborhood, and is now making middle class income, I can really relate. Basically, had I grown up in a middle class neighborhood, I probably would not have developed bad habits that I am now trying to unlearn.
To sum it up, if you're able to conquer the toxic work environment such that it works for you rather than against you (such as favoritism, as an example), and you're able to mitigate the effects of the bad habits learned while in the toxic environment, it could be beneficial for you.
Very, very good comment from JP.
A few additional notes:
Growing up VS spending time as an adult
I think one note to make is that growing up in a certain environment is somewhat different than spending time in a certain environment as an adult.
Both experiences have the potential of changing and shaping you, but the kid who grows up in a certain environment is more likely to internalize the mindsets and behaviors than an adult.
The adult is in a better position, somewhat more impervious to the environment, and with more power to control what he accepts as his new norms, and what he does for a certain period, without internalizing.
That being said, it's an important topic you raise: to act a certain way in the short term and in a certain environment, while also knowing that you want to be a different kind of person for the long term, and in different environments.
That knowledge alone, plus any other tools you might use, will help you avoid the bad environment to change you for the negative.
Toxic workplaces as opportunities for quick career advancement: possible
Yeah, that's possible indeed.
Advancing on skills and merit might take some time since you need to learn and achieve mastery.
But in a workplace where skills and talent matter less than politics, a socially smart and highly Machiavellian player might be able to advance faster than a straight player in a full meritocracy.
That being said, I wouldn't make that my life objective.
Toxic workplaces as power dynamics gyms: yes
Overall, I both like and agree with the overall concept.
I think it's important to being exposed to different environments and people.
And engaging with power movers and generally value-taking individuals is a great way of developing more power dynamics awareness and personal effectiveness.
Of course, you don't wanna stay stuck in that value-taking mindset, and you don't want to elect those people into your inner circle, like... Ever. But still, there is plenty to learn from the people you want to avoid. How to deal with them, of course. But also how to spot and recognize them, so by knowing who is not good enough for you, you will also recognize those who do are.
"Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you."
- Friedrich Nietzsche
I would add:
If as a kid you grow in a shitty place, the shitty place is very likely to grow inside of you!
Quote from Stef on August 23, 2020, 4:58 am"Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you."
- Friedrich Nietzsche
I would add:
If as a kid you grow in a shitty place the shitty place is very likely to grow inside of you!
Yes, a great and befitting quote.
I was looking for another quote I once read, similar meaning but less inspirational and a bit more "down to earth". It was something about "getting so used to behave in a crooked manner on the way up, that by the time you reach the top, you're a crook yourself".
I can't find it exactly, but the concept is the same, and it's very powerful.
Being able to play a game without becoming the game is a also sign of strong mental and emotional control.
Yes, and I would add on something similar - being able to compartmentalize game playing and not game playing modes in yourself can be useful too. Unleash the monster when you need to, and do so totally; yet, when the situation has passed, let yourself detach from it and go back to non-game playing modes of living. Accept, and even embrace, your dark side, but make it clear it plays by your rules, not the other way around.
A cool thing about this is that not only does this give you better mastery of yourself, but it lets you see and accept the darkness in others. No longer do you need to be ashamed of yourself nor project that as anger on them, but accept both and use that knowledge against them as a hunter would against his prey.
A simple caveat, though - only go to such places, and similar (dating, competitive sports, and especially war) if you are ready to become a bit of a monster. Still, it is better to go to the battle proactively, than wait for it to find you.
Quote from Kellvo on August 23, 2020, 12:57 pmYes, and I would add on something similar - being able to compartmentalize game playing and not game playing modes in yourself can be useful too. Unleash the monster when you need to, and do so totally; yet, when the situation has passed, let yourself detach from it and go back to non-game playing modes of living. Accept, and even embrace, your dark side, but make it clear it plays by your rules, not the other way around.
(...)
Great post, Kellvo.
In large part, agreed.
This ties back what some authors labeled "being a good psychopath".
Especially important for those who want to be a force for good, since non-naturally Machiavellian and non-naturally ruthless people are more likely to lose against naturally ruthless and Machiavellian folks -we go back to one of this website's mantra that "to be good, you need to be bad"-.
Likewise, agreed. There's a time for everything, including caring for others and being a moral person. Accepting my psychopathic tendencies also lets me choose when not to be that way; it means being able to choose what lines not to cross, what said psychopathy is in service of and what channels such tendencies can be productively channeled down.