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is covid 19 a hoax?

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Most humans are born with a natural drive to advertise their power and status.

Yes, for sure, I totally agree with this.

and in a way I suspect is one of the reasons why most people will never be as powerful as they could.

And If  this group exist, they need to be beyond that, since I think they are ancient, so maybe back in the days they realize this "natural drive" and found a way to prune it out.

if you have power and status but nobody knows it, it's not nearly as useful.

This makes perfect sense, I think it only may change in the upper echelons, when you have some kind of master plan, extremely powerfull allies and are well organized enough to not need to advertise your status/power, in a similar way most  old money do not need to do conspicuous consumption.

this people, if they exist, probably are on a league of their own (I would not go as far as saying they are from another planet or "race") but they should leave your regular famous politician in the dust.

Again "they" are maybe just a myth some wants to believe to at least pretend there is some "order" (even if dark) in this chaotic world.

but we can also psychologize in the opposite direction (denial of the existence of such a menacing reality, etc).

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Lucio Buffalmano

Yep, fair enough to all of those, well said.

My last comment to that is that we'd be moving towards hypotheses that, to make a "secret power group" possible and viable, are adding more caveats that make this group more and more of an exception to "normal" people.

As such, we also become less world bound, with the world being how we know it and experience it.

In a way, we're approaching religion then, it's either you believe -or at least believe it possible, which is very different- in spite of a lack of any evidence, or you don't believe it.

At this point that we've reached, my point of view is that such a proposition of an occult power group does not justify believing it exists "for sure" because "for sure", would be illogical.
On the other hand, as much as proof of never seeing a black swan is no proof that a black swan doesn't exist, nobody can possibly deny an occult power group might exist on the basis of lack of evidence.

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StefSerena Irina
Have you read the forum guidelines for effective communication already?

And, as a general approach to lack of evidence, my skeptical approach is this:

Faced with a dearth of concrete data and evidence, as well as a total lack of observation and experience, I remain (highly) skeptical. But both as a logically mandated approach that something that does not show doesn't necessarily mean it doesn't exist, and generally as good measure in life, I leave the door open for the possibility, however remote that might be.

In this specific case, I also see some evidence from general sociology and human nature that makes an occult and highly effective group unlikely -"highly effective" is key, as otherwise there are plenty of groups who seek to influence world events-, since whenever you take any group of people, you are almost bound to have conflicting interests.

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StefSerena Irina
Have you read the forum guidelines for effective communication already?

Hi Lucio, I find the definition of "power group" very important.

Of course, one could use a black-and-white definition: a secret power group is a group that highly influential and independent of public figures such as important politicians and businessmen.

This definition could be less interesting as public figures attract traffics, and it will be unwise for any powerful groups to not to try using those public figures as tools. Also, any important interaction will leave some traces, more or less. So if there exists an influential secret group, it will leave traces, and thus becoming less secretive.

Building on this, I would like to extend this definition to a more grey-ish and spectrum-based definition, rather than black-and-white definition.

A power group is a group whose true intention and composition is less known to general public: they are less known than the public figures, yet they exert more influence than those public figures.

By "public figures", I mean Trump, Fauci, Buffett, and other famous and influential persons who frequently appear in main-stream media.

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Lucio BuffalmanoSerena Irina

It's a great point, selffriend.

Another sets of questions then emerge, then: if this more "official", "non-hidden", and apparently "in good relationship with the leaders" group needs to exert influence that conflicts with the politicians, how do they manage to get it their own way, if the levers of power are officially controlled by the politicians?

Why should the politician bend over, when the power is more negotiated, than outright owned?

Why does a leader would want to do anything that makes him lose office and power?
Or, worse, do something so obscene as to willingly hurt his population if there is a risk he might be found out?

By the way, I totally agree that such a semi-hidden group exists: like you said in the beginning, it's well documented.
The group of very rich donors fits this description.

But I don't see it as nearly as omni-powerful as some make it out to be.

The way I see the world is that it's far messier.
Even within the super-rich donors, there are conflicting interests, so that the group pulls together in the same direction in all -or even most- of the situations is extremely unlikely.

Luckily so, because in this messiness and conflicting interests, the "best solution for most" also has a fighting chance of coming out on top.

Add to that that the interest of many elected politicians and many voters somewhat aligns, plus the fact that many people do have an internal moral and ethical system, and my general view is more positive than many "complotists" (term used here without the pejorative meaning).

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Stefselffriend
Have you read the forum guidelines for effective communication already?

It's a great point, selffriend.

Another sets of questions then emerge, then: if this more "official", "non-hidden", and apparently "in good relationship with the leaders" group needs to exert influence that conflicts with the politicians, how do they manage to get it their own way, if the levers of power are officially controlled by the politicians?

Why should the politician bend over, when the power is more negotiated, than outright owned?

There are many forms of powers. Political power is one of them. A power group bring some of those forms of power together.

There are multiple groups and multiple alliances. The group leader is sometimes also a public figure, but most of the time he is less known to public than the public figures within the group.

Well, if a politician changed his mind and diverged from the group, he can be murdered, socially murdered, or replaced through voting. One could check how many Korean presidents died unnaturally.

In US, the politicians do not have the full official power lever. They share power with judges and public administrators. For example, in Michigan, the governor ordered the police uses brute force to keep the parliament members (the politicians) outside of the parliament building. The politicians are also voted by the general public.

For another famous example that everyone knows, the media directs public opinion, which in turn directs the election results.

Back in 2016, almost all mainstream media are fighting against Trump. However Trump was popular on social media.

In 2020, all mainstream media are still fighting against Trump, and all main social media banned Trump at about the same time.

Which group brought Trump down? The public is not given the information on who was the true leader, who smartly planned all those things and finally put things together. The public is only given the information that "Trump is a badboy and thus banned".

For a smaller point, many mainstream media has similar design, similar contents, similar political views, similar commenting rules, and similar subscription pattern. This serves as a mild evidence that they belong to one single person or united group. This person or specific group is secretive and less identifiable from the point of view of the general public.

The most known political figure now is Biden, but I am sure that most educated persons would not say that Biden is the leader who pulled out all these well-planned campaigns. The person or group that planned all these things has access to not only political power, but also many other forms of power: may be more powerful than Biden, and still less identifiable to the publics.

Of course, the world is far messier than the general public believes. There are of course inner conflicts inside of any power group. I agree 100% with you on this.

 

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Stef

But then... We're discussing something totally different, selffriend.

You are discussing pretty much how things are, and not describing anymore a secretive group that is capable of secretly producing a vaccine for million of people as a form of experimentation.

And that is topic here: a secretive power group that is capable to "manufacture" covid as a lab virus and/or as a fake story and/or to manufacture an experiment with some non-identified goals, and sell it as a vaccine for millions of unsuspecting folks.

We have -or can create- different topics for political  and social-level power dynamics, this topic is different, it's for "complotist theories".

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Stef
Have you read the forum guidelines for effective communication already?

Off topic

I am not far away from believing that plant based diets are also a global conspiracy

In this one even local politicians have an interest, as it makes it easier to feed the tax payers.

Seed oils marketing open my eyes to successful social engineering on a global scale most than a decade ago.

If they can have most people eating trash while believing it is healthy...

Then when a natural or man made virus hits us, we are in trouble: already malnourished and poisoned our fragile inmune system can do little...

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selffriend
Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on April 27, 2021, 7:20 am

But then... We're discussing something totally different, selffriend.

You are discussing pretty much how things are, and not describing anymore a secretive group that is capable of secretly producing a vaccine for million of people as a form of experimentation.

And that is topic here: a secretive power group that is capable to "manufacture" covid as a lab virus and/or as a fake story and/or to manufacture an experiment with some non-identified goals, and sell it as a vaccine for millions of unsuspecting folks.

We have -or can create- different topics for political  and social-level power dynamics, this topic is different, it's for "complotist theories".

I don't think things are that extreme, usually.

Recall that, in my personal opinion, being "secretive" is relative rather than black-and-white.

Did a secret group intentionally made COVID to kill millions? Probably not.

Did a group, not that known to the public, intentionally make vaccine and significantly over-claimed its effectiveness to make money? Yes, 100%.

Did a group, not that known to the public, made a plan that exaggerated/suppressed the effect of COVID and used the exaggeration to benefit their group? Yes, 100%.

You guys might be interested in the book "Shadow Men - by Anthony Napoleon".
It's an extrapolation on this subtopic of power.

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