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Is dominance inherently value taking?

#1 · August 27, 2023, 7:24 pm

Hello guys,

I'm currently stuck with a question that is preventing me from achieving the results I want being it:

Is dominance inherently value taking?/ is there a value adding/non status taking dominance?

PU does already cover dominance but I understand most of the examples given as forms of taking value or status from others, that is:

Overpowering them in frame battles.
Exherting social pressure.
Dominating the conversation.
Affectionate dominance.
Etc.

In my case each time somebody behaves in a dominant way towards me I don't appreciate it and I usually take action to avoid a loss of status(e.g: affectionate dominance, backslaps).

Another example I can think about is in seduction, babying the woman is a good way of dominating her, as well as dominating the frame without breaking rapport and getting her to accept your frames, however if there are people around her it's very likely that they she will lose the respect of others.

Do you all guys have value adding advice?

Cheers.

P.S:

My problem here is that as I perceive dominant behaviour to be value taking I only use it when I'm faced with direct/certain verbal aggressions. I'm sure this is the major stepping stone that is preventing me from achieving the results I want in getting status and dates.

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#2 · August 27, 2023, 8:45 pm

Not sure what you mean here, Power Duck.

In a way, I see being dominant as inherently value-giving because high-value people pull others up just by being high-value (according to the social exchange).

And a part of being high-value is being high-power (AKA: dominant).

Also, one of the lessons in Power University is called the Styles of Dominance which shares the Charmer as a style. And charmers are walking attraction generators beloved by many which wouldn't be the case if being charming was value-taking. And yet, being charming is still also a way of being dominant.

So, I think what you're describing is dominant behavior that's devoid of warmth. In that case, the dominance does indeed become value-taking.

However, it's the lack of warmth that causes the issue, not the dominance.

Does that clear it up at all?

Edit:

Changed some wording.

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#3 · August 27, 2023, 9:19 pm

Thanks for the response Ali.

Maybe my problem is not understanding well the concept of dominance. After reading your response I think I got some things:

Google defines dominance as: "power and influence over others." So as you point out dominance overlaps with high power behaviour, and high power behaviour shows the ability of an individual to influence others and their environment in an effective way. Due to psychological reactance both dominance and high power behaviour can upset others as well as decrease their status, so warmth is needed to avoid their loss of status.

So far that's what I understood from the matter( a bit lengthy but writing things makes me understand them better).Overall I would say that being dominant is the same as being high power.

However the things I didn't understood is:

how being charming is dominant?, is it because people like you hence you can influence them more easily?
Here: most of the examples are value taking, the thing is that I don't see how warmth would make them not value taking. (I can't separate the text from the link for some reason).

If my questions are too broad, could you give me a couple of examples of value adding dominance? Usually examples are better in order to understand concepts.

Cheers.

P.S:

I didn't initially see that you pointed out that high power and dominance are similar. Fixed now.

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#4 · August 27, 2023, 9:26 pm

*Maybe an example of value adding dominance could be: stating assertively and in a high power manner that you wish to be treated with respect while power protecting the other person.

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#5 · August 28, 2023, 9:06 am

I finally solved the problem. Didn't remember that PU offered such a detailed explanation.

So if any admin reads this: feel free to delete this post if you want, a question covered in detail in PU has no value here in the forum.

Cheers.

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#6 · August 28, 2023, 9:28 am

Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on August 28, 2023, 9:28 am
It's an interesting high-level question, including all that's interesting of high-level questions, and their limitations.
I can't say anything too precise on the topic without a case study.
With a case study, things change.
BUT...
What I'd say at the high level is that a lot goes down to how one defines and thinks of "dominance".
In common parlance, it's slightly more negative.
So in common parlance, "dominant" is often value-taking.
Here at TPM we use it more neutrally (albeit you're right Power Duck to say that most of the examples are "too much" in that lesson, and that's because we need more extreme examples to help more beginner folks understand what we're talking about. Lesson will be further improved of course and we'll make that clearer) and add "too" or "overly" to differentiate the negative aspects, with the more neutral ones.
And we also use "high power" as a higher-level construct that includes "dominant", but generally excludes "value-taking dominant", and we use that more in a positive way.
EXAMPLE OF "POSITIVE DOMINANCE"
This is an example of what I'd consider value-adding or "fair" talk more on the dominant side.
My recorded voice message to my neighbor in PU I'd also consider delivered with dominant inflection & words, but was totally fair and called for.
And there are several examples in the dating section of PU / SU as well.
What made me curious though is this:
Quote from Power Duck on August 27, 2023, 7:24 pm
My problem here is that as I perceive dominant behaviour to be value taking I only use it when I'm faced with direct/certain verbal aggressions. I'm sure this is the major stepping stone that is preventing me from achieving the results I want in getting status and dates.
How is it stopping you?
And what do you think you could do to use dominance to achieve more status and dates?
Because if you share some concrete examples, it's easier to say "this is totally fair" (which I'm thinking may be the case more often than not).

It's an interesting high-level question, including all that's interesting of high-level questions, and their limitations.

I can't say anything too precise on the topic without a case study.

With a case study, things change.

BUT...

What I'd say at the high level is that a lot goes down to how one defines and thinks of "dominance".

In common parlance, it's slightly more negative.
So in common parlance, "dominant" is often value-taking.

Here at TPM we use it more neutrally (albeit you're right Power Duck to say that most of the examples are "too much" in that lesson, and that's because we need more extreme examples to help more beginner folks understand what we're talking about. Lesson will be further improved of course and we'll make that clearer) and add "too" or "overly" to differentiate the negative aspects, with the more neutral ones.
And we also use "high power" as a higher-level construct that includes "dominant", but generally excludes "value-taking dominant", and we use that more in a positive way.

EXAMPLE OF "POSITIVE DOMINANCE"

This is an example of what I'd consider value-adding or "fair" talk more on the dominant side.

My recorded voice message to my neighbor in PU I'd also consider delivered with dominant inflection & words, but was totally fair and called for.

And there are several examples in the dating section of PU / SU as well.

What made me curious though is this:

Quote from Power Duck on August 27, 2023, 7:24 pm
My problem here is that as I perceive dominant behaviour to be value taking I only use it when I'm faced with direct/certain verbal aggressions. I'm sure this is the major stepping stone that is preventing me from achieving the results I want in getting status and dates.

How is it stopping you?

And what do you think you could do to use dominance to achieve more status and dates?

Because if you share some concrete examples, it's easier to say "this is totally fair" (which I'm thinking may be the case more often than not).

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#7 · August 28, 2023, 12:07 pm

Thanks for the response Lucio, Ill answer it as soon as I find some rest time.

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#8 · August 28, 2023, 3:32 pm

I think it’s a great topic, thanks Power Duck, Ali and Lucio.

I don’t have anything to add yet so this message is to thank you.

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#9 · August 28, 2023, 4:01 pm

Quote from Power Duck on August 28, 2023, 4:01 pm
Cheers Lucio.
And we also use "high power" as a higher-level construct that includes "dominant", but generally excludes "value-taking dominant", and we use that more in a positive way.
Thanks this definetely clears things up.
Because if you share some concrete examples, it's easier to say "this is totally fair" (which I'm thinking may be the case more often than not).
I'll pay special attention to remember situations in which I'm reluctant to be dominant and reflect about it in my journal. Now I don't have any good example in mind.
How is it stopping you?
And what do you think you could do to use dominance to achieve more status and dates?
I would say that my main problems are: (a bit lengthy this was done in self-reflection)
Not applying the law of least effort. Speaking slowly and with an intonation of "I don't care" is high power, but value taking as well. I'll speak and move slower from now on, that includes speaking less.
Not being willing to create social tension. In the past I didn't care about creating social tension, most of the time it ended being too value taking. I'll start having strong eye contact again as well as not caring if I create social tension most of the time, if I see that the other person is a friend and is uncomfortable I'll ease it a bit. I remember this to be particularly good to attract women.
Too much power protection at certain times. I'll be higher power and more "straight to the point", including here in the forum of course. I'll keep power protection to the minimum but without being an assh*le.
Repeating the last words of what people say to me. Read somewhere this could be used to increase likeability, it's actually inecessary and low power in most ocassions. From now on I won't repeat the words of other people unless it's consciously done in an intimate conversation.
Humming each time I'm talking with somebody. I use it again to avoid creating social tension. Again this includes not caring about creating social tension, instead of humming stay quiet, ask/say something useful.
Not accepting others frames so easily. Instead impose your frame/negotiate the frame so it's a win-win/accept when you're wrong right away in a high power fashion. This is one of my bigger problems. In part is caused by speaking too much sometimes, as I set up frames that are hard to deffend.
Overall my problems would be solved with: (summary)
Talking and moving slower (it makes me think better as well).
Not saying innecessary things and going straight to the point.
Not caring about making others uncomfortable. And being willing to do it.
Impose/negotiate/accept frames: when you're against a stubborn person/so it's a win-win/when you're wrong right away in a high power fashion.
I'm talking about not wanting to make others uncomfortable but actually the issue is a fear/worry of not liking others/creating uncomfortable moments. I know well the solution for this: It's hard to fix a record of being a pushover. However when you are too dominating and then apologize you show others both how powerful you are and what a good team player you are.
Thanks again Lucio. I'm slowly getting closer to being as high power as I would like to.
Cheers.

Cheers Lucio.

And we also use "high power" as a higher-level construct that includes "dominant", but generally excludes "value-taking dominant", and we use that more in a positive way.

Thanks this definetely clears things up.

Because if you share some concrete examples, it's easier to say "this is totally fair" (which I'm thinking may be the case more often than not).

I'll pay special attention to remember situations in which I'm reluctant to be dominant and reflect about it in my journal. Now I don't have any good example in mind.

How is it stopping you?
And what do you think you could do to use dominance to achieve more status and dates?

I would say that my main problems are: (a bit lengthy this was done in self-reflection)

Not applying the law of least effort. Speaking slowly and with an intonation of "I don't care" is high power, but value taking as well. I'll speak and move slower from now on, that includes speaking less.
Not being willing to create social tension. In the past I didn't care about creating social tension, most of the time it ended being too value taking. I'll start having strong eye contact again as well as not caring if I create social tension most of the time, if I see that the other person is a friend and is uncomfortable I'll ease it a bit. I remember this to be particularly good to attract women.
Too much power protection at certain times. I'll be higher power and more "straight to the point", including here in the forum of course. I'll keep power protection to the minimum but without being an assh*le.
Repeating the last words of what people say to me. Read somewhere this could be used to increase likeability, it's actually inecessary and low power in most ocassions. From now on I won't repeat the words of other people unless it's consciously done in an intimate conversation.
Humming each time I'm talking with somebody. I use it again to avoid creating social tension. Again this includes not caring about creating social tension, instead of humming stay quiet, ask/say something useful.
Not accepting others frames so easily. Instead impose your frame/negotiate the frame so it's a win-win/accept when you're wrong right away in a high power fashion. This is one of my bigger problems. In part is caused by speaking too much sometimes, as I set up frames that are hard to deffend.

Overall my problems would be solved with: (summary)

Talking and moving slower (it makes me think better as well).
Not saying innecessary things and going straight to the point.
Not caring about making others uncomfortable. And being willing to do it.
Impose/negotiate/accept frames: when you're against a stubborn person/so it's a win-win/when you're wrong right away in a high power fashion.

I'm talking about not wanting to make others uncomfortable but actually the issue is a fear/worry of not liking others/creating uncomfortable moments. I know well the solution for this: It's hard to fix a record of being a pushover. However when you are too dominating and then apologize you show others both how powerful you are and what a good team player you are.

Thanks again Lucio. I'm slowly getting closer to being as high power as I would like to.

Cheers.

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#10 · September 3, 2023, 1:24 pm

After Lucio's response in this post.

And after some reflections, I've finally understood why dominance can feel value taking, even value adding dominance.

That is because when you enforce boundaries or call out peoples bs and games, you are thread expanding the mistake and putting them in a negative light, however although it's value taking for the other person in the short term, it's actually way more value adding in the long term as it can create win-win relationships and help others to change and stop playing games.

That would explain why some high power folks don't appreciate dominance, if they accept your frame they are following your lead and disempowering themselves for the mistake they made. And that's where the growth mindset comes in: mature high power&quality individuals will accept your frame and follow your lead and even lead alongside you into a good win-win relationship, and low power&submissive folks are more likely to accept your lead if you are dominant.

And again, if you commit a mistake and go overboard with the dominance you can apologize later in a high power fashion. It's a win either way.

OFF TOPIC

In the end the fear of offending others when one is dominant is "useless", in the sense that the low quality folks are going to get mad at you anyway. Why not pick the most effective way to enforce boundaries and call out games? There's no excuse.

END OFF TOPIC

Those are my thoughts on the matter anyway.

Cheers.

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