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Is this person trying to Gaslight me?

#1 · February 27, 2023, 6:41 am

Hi Y'all

One of my relatives, who is elder to me has this annoying habit of pointing out mistakes/ provides me with feed backs over things which I have been doing well and am proficient at, for example when the road is empty and I'm cruising I have a tendency to use only one of my hands to control the wheel, to which my relative points out the "mistake" and offers advise, and when I point out that the feedback/advise was unnecessary and I know when and how to drive, she responds with "it is my duty to point out what I think is a mistake, else I'm failing you in my duties as an aunt to avert any future mistakes"

I'm unsure on how to go about this, since I can't address the tone, her tone is very factual and respectful, the one way to address it is to, give her a very hard time when she brings up anything like that again.

What do you think?

Thank You

#2 · February 27, 2023, 1:11 pm

Hi Maverick,

I wouldn't consider it gaslighting, it seems closer to a teacher role to me.

So, some options might be to go assertive ("I understand you feel it's your duty but, with all due respect, it feels annoying when you try to 'school' me on things I didn't ask for help on"), go meta, or simply reject her attempts (e.g. "Aunt May, I understand you want to help me and I appreciate you thinking of me but, quite honestly, I prefer to learn from my mistakes on my own and ask for help only when I need it").

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#3 · February 27, 2023, 2:29 pm

Hi Maverick,

I second Ali’s post and solutions.

At the same time I also believe that some people - and this may be the case here - may be so invested into adopting a teacher frame to dominate others that they may manufacture occasions or “mistakes” to be able to give “advice” on them.

In other words, teacher frames can be “manufactured” and have a “gaslighting” undertone.

I remember several instances in which a former friend of mine used to do the exact same thing to me:

- everytime I was driving and he was a passenger in my car, he would bring out a different reason why I was not driving correctly, and “correct me on it”

- the reasons would always be different. If I addressed one thing and stopped doing it, invariably there would be another one next time (this is the element that proves the “gaslighting undertone”)

- interestingly, he himself was involved in several auto accidents, which he invariably explained as others’ fault.

So I wonder if - as a second step after implementing the responses that Ali suggested - surfacing the “manipulative element” may be enough to address this and make it stop:

Aunt: Yes, you don’t drive with one hand on the wheel now, but you still do this other thing that must be corrected.
You: Aunt, it seems every time I drive, you find something different to correct me on. Could you please stop?
(if it doesn’t work to make it stop, you could add:)
Since I’m very keen on your safety, maybe it would be better if - from now on - you find another means of transportation. What do you think?

The idea here is to fight her frame of

“It’s my duty to correct you”

with a higher-level frame of

“It’s my duty to ensure your safety, which you seem to think I still can’t, so —-> you go alone from now on”.

You leverage her incentive to keep the value you are providing to her by showing you are willing to remove it if she continues.

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#4 · February 28, 2023, 12:57 am

Quote from Maverick on February 28, 2023, 12:57 am
Quote from Bel on February 27, 2023, 2:29 pm
Hi Maverick,
I second Ali’s post and solutions.
At the same time I also believe that some people - and this may be the case here - may be so invested into adopting a teacher frame to dominate others that they may manufacture occasions or “mistakes” to be able to give “advice” on them.
In other words, teacher frames can be “manufactured” and have a “gaslighting” undertone.
Aunt: Yes, you don’t drive with one hand on the wheel now, but you still do this other thing that must be corrected.
You: Aunt, it seems every time I drive, you find something different to correct me on. Could you please stop?
(if it doesn’t work to make it stop, you could add:)
Since I’m very keen on your safety, maybe it would be better if - from now on - you find another means of transportation. What do you think?
The idea here is to fight her frame of
“It’s my duty to correct you”
with a higher-level frame of
“It’s my duty to ensure your safety, which you seem to think I still can’t, so —-> you go alone from now on”.
You leverage her incentive to keep the value you are providing to her by showing you are willing to remove it if she continues.
Hi Bel,
You nailed it!, Exactly,My interactions have left me feeling she manufactures "errors" just so she can take a judge/teacher role, When it's coming from a person who really ought to look out for me, it's highly conflicting to decide what exactly is the intention, but take into considerations "patterns" rather than isolated incidents what you suggest is happening makes a lot of sense. Like your examples of manufactured errors during driving, this aunt does it too but in a rather different way, she becomes controlling, When I pull up to a light, she barks orders at me, like
Aunt: Switch of the engine, since there is at least 5 minutes.
Aunt : Turn off the A/c and the lights when the engine is switched off.
Aunt : Turn on the engine,
Aunt: Park behind that car, why did you brake hard? Did you not see the car coming?

This is another part I find challenging to address, I tackle it by Replying I know thank you for reminding me, but this seems weak in the face of repeated power moves.Another option I have is to go meta and call her out.I find this risky as it could jeopardize our relationship
Thank You for the great analysis and ideas Bel
Mav

Quote from Bel on February 27, 2023, 2:29 pm
Hi Maverick,
I second Ali’s post and solutions.
At the same time I also believe that some people - and this may be the case here - may be so invested into adopting a teacher frame to dominate others that they may manufacture occasions or “mistakes” to be able to give “advice” on them.
In other words, teacher frames can be “manufactured” and have a “gaslighting” undertone.
Aunt: Yes, you don’t drive with one hand on the wheel now, but you still do this other thing that must be corrected.
You: Aunt, it seems every time I drive, you find something different to correct me on. Could you please stop?
(if it doesn’t work to make it stop, you could add:)
Since I’m very keen on your safety, maybe it would be better if - from now on - you find another means of transportation. What do you think?
The idea here is to fight her frame of
“It’s my duty to correct you”
with a higher-level frame of
“It’s my duty to ensure your safety, which you seem to think I still can’t, so —-> you go alone from now on”.
You leverage her incentive to keep the value you are providing to her by showing you are willing to remove it if she continues.

Hi Bel,

You nailed it!, Exactly,My interactions have left me feeling she manufactures "errors" just so she can take a judge/teacher role, When it's coming from a person who really ought to look out for me, it's highly conflicting to decide what exactly is the intention, but take into considerations "patterns" rather than isolated incidents what you suggest is happening makes a lot of sense. Like your examples of manufactured errors during driving, this aunt does it too but in a rather different way, she becomes controlling, When I pull up to a light, she barks orders at me, like

Aunt: Switch of the engine, since there is at least 5 minutes.
Aunt : Turn off the A/c and the lights when the engine is switched off.
Aunt : Turn on the engine,
Aunt: Park behind that car, why did you brake hard? Did you not see the car coming?

This is another part I find challenging to address, I tackle it by Replying I know thank you for reminding me, but this seems weak in the face of repeated power moves.Another option I have is to go meta and call her out.I find this risky as it could jeopardize our relationship

Thank You for the great analysis and ideas Bel

Mav

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#5 · February 28, 2023, 1:05 am

Quote from Ali Scarlett on February 27, 2023, 1:11 pm
simply reject her attempts (e.g. "Aunt May, I understand you want to help me and I appreciate you thinking of me but, quite honestly, I prefer to learn from my mistakes on my own and ask for help only when I need it").

Hi Ali,

I found this very useful, since if she counters it with anything it confirms she is playing power games,

So, some options might be to go assertive ("I understand you feel it's your duty but, with all due respect, it feels annoying when you try to 'school' me on things I didn't ask for help on"),

This option might be a good reply, knowing my aunt it would make her reply something like this

Aunt: As long as it's only your life, I wouldn't care so much about schooling, there is another life at stake here, so I will school you

Which would lead to turkey spiral, so I feel the last option is better in this case.

Thank You Ali

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#6 · February 28, 2023, 2:57 am

Thank you for the thank you, Maverick!

Personally, I would just tell her something like:

Why don't you drive since you're so knowledgeable, Aunt? This way I can see if you make any mistakes, and tell you. You know, everyone can benefit from improving, not just me...

Or maybe less intense (and probably also a better, higher congruency straight-talk solution compared to whatever I suggested before in this thread):

You know, Aunt: I like driving; and I like seeing you and talking to you.
But I'm finding that this combination of driving while talking to you is making what should be two pleasant things somewhat unpleasant.
So, I'd appreciate if you just relaxed and enjoyed the scenery.
And if that's not an option for you, then I suppose it's best if we stop driving together in the near future.

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#7 · February 28, 2023, 3:50 am

Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on February 28, 2023, 3:50 am
I was originally going to write "not the best example of gaslighting, but definitely a power move".
And then Bel's answer took it to a whole 'other level -hats off, Bel, you went above and beyond what I may have originally contributed here!-.
P.S.: good lesson learned. If someone is bothered enough by a single instance, it may be the sign that (subconsciously) it's the trend that bothers him most.
And yes, that is true, while with a "good enough person" that would "only" be an annoying teacher frame / one-up, if it's a trend, if it's always "something new" to correct you about, and if they often try to come up with a twist or reframe why they're right and they never apologize, then it's textbook gaslighting.
This same mistake seems quite nitpicking -if not already "forced"-.
I personally wouldn't even be sure if 2 hands on the wheel really make that big a difference.
In most stick-shift EU car one hand on the gear shifter may even allow for a quicker emergency stop as one may also use the engine braking power.
Handling it: the "right after" and your attitude matter more than the technique you choose
As for checking it, great answers already by Ali and Bel and many techniques apply.
Overall, I think it's more important to flag it and surface and how you handle what happens after + your attitude, than what you say exactly on the first "power move check".
Mindset: she's already ruining the relationship, and I'm being disempowered
On this one here:
Quote from Maverick on February 28, 2023, 12:57 am
(...) Another option I have is to go meta and call her out.I find this risky as it could jeopardize our relationship
Thank You for the great analysis and ideas Bel
Mav
A different point of view for view:
SHE is already jeopardizing the relationship by destroying the social capital between you two.
And you're also on the losing end.
That should be good enough motivation to do something.
Direct callingly it + mirror role play to make your point
Here's a brief good rapport-maintaining approach to going meta:
You: Dear aunt, I think you give me many of these suggestions with my and our best interest in mind and for that, I'm truly grateful.
At the same time, please let me share that it's certainly possible to overdo something good and it's a bit annoying when someone tells you what to do a little bit too often, and a little bit too condescendingly
That's already enough for the first check.
She'll probably push back, but doesn't matter what she says, you got your own strategy to follow.
Personally, whatever she replies, I'd then like to use a mirror technique to make her feel the same:
Her: (whatever she says)
You: don't reply that to me!
Trust me more!
Keep more quiet or you distract me! Lower the AC output! Make this, make that! (<--- you're mimicking and exaggerating the tasking here to make your point of how annoying it is)
How does that feel to you? (<--- now you switch back to normal talk)
Does that feel a bit annoying? It does, right? Well, that's how I also feel when someone always tell me what to do
The key is to make your role play dominant and obnoxious, ideally similar to her style.
The power of this approach is that it shows rather than tell.
I used it many times, and worked great.

I was originally going to write "not the best example of gaslighting, but definitely a power move".

And then Bel's answer took it to a whole 'other level -hats off, Bel, you went above and beyond what I may have originally contributed here!-.
P.S.: good lesson learned. If someone is bothered enough by a single instance, it may be the sign that (subconsciously) it's the trend that bothers him most.

And yes, that is true, while with a "good enough person" that would "only" be an annoying teacher frame / one-up, if it's a trend, if it's always "something new" to correct you about, and if they often try to come up with a twist or reframe why they're right and they never apologize, then it's textbook gaslighting.

This same mistake seems quite nitpicking -if not already "forced"-.
I personally wouldn't even be sure if 2 hands on the wheel really make that big a difference.
In most stick-shift EU car one hand on the gear shifter may even allow for a quicker emergency stop as one may also use the engine braking power.

Handling it: the "right after" and your attitude matter more than the technique you choose

As for checking it, great answers already by Ali and Bel and many techniques apply.

Overall, I think it's more important to flag it and surface and how you handle what happens after + your attitude, than what you say exactly on the first "power move check".

Mindset: she's already ruining the relationship, and I'm being disempowered

On this one here:

Quote from Maverick on February 28, 2023, 12:57 am
(...) Another option I have is to go meta and call her out.I find this risky as it could jeopardize our relationship
Thank You for the great analysis and ideas Bel
Mav

A different point of view for view:

SHE is already jeopardizing the relationship by destroying the social capital between you two.

And you're also on the losing end.

That should be good enough motivation to do something.

Direct callingly it + mirror role play to make your point

Here's a brief good rapport-maintaining approach to going meta:

You: Dear aunt, I think you give me many of these suggestions with my and our best interest in mind and for that, I'm truly grateful.
At the same time, please let me share that it's certainly possible to overdo something good and it's a bit annoying when someone tells you what to do a little bit too often, and a little bit too condescendingly

That's already enough for the first check.

She'll probably push back, but doesn't matter what she says, you got your own strategy to follow.

Personally, whatever she replies, I'd then like to use a mirror technique to make her feel the same:

Her: (whatever she says)
You: don't reply that to me!
Trust me more!
Keep more quiet or you distract me! Lower the AC output! Make this, make that! (<--- you're mimicking and exaggerating the tasking here to make your point of how annoying it is)
How does that feel to you? (<--- now you switch back to normal talk)
Does that feel a bit annoying? It does, right? Well, that's how I also feel when someone always tell me what to do

The key is to make your role play dominant and obnoxious, ideally similar to her style.

The power of this approach is that it shows rather than tell.

I used it many times, and worked great.

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#8 · February 28, 2023, 5:03 am

Deleted.

#9 · February 28, 2023, 6:07 am

Hey guys

Plenty of good answers here! Just to add one more option: task her to instruct you later

Aunt May, I really appreciate you giving me tips on how to improve my driving. But right now you are distracting me, so I'll kindly ask you to stop. Do you really want to help me? The way you can help me is: please, write down a list of the "mistakes" you observe and send me. I promise to take a very good look at what you wrote and take the corrective measures where I see fit.

If she insists on something like "as long as it's only your life, I wouldn't care so much about schooling, there is another life at stake here, so I will school you", you can always answer with:

Well, aunt, I don't agree with you that your life is in danger and I'm not planning to change my way of driving. If you are genuinely afraid, what I can do for you is to leave you at the nearest place where you can safely get a cab. Will that work for you?

Say those in a very calm, even caring tone of voice.

The idea here is that you validate her feelings, but the alternatives you offer her will mean, for her, a lot of work. She's now cornered because it's either do a lot of work to defend her frame, or confirm that she was just nitpicking. It'll likely make her stop in order not to be in this situation again.

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#10 · February 28, 2023, 7:11 pm

Great answers by Kavalier and Lucio.

Want to comment on this:

Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on February 28, 2023, 3:50 am
Direct callingly it + mirror role play to make your point
Here's a brief good rapport-maintaining approach to going meta:
You: Dear aunt, I think you give me many of these suggestions with my and our best interest in mind and for that, I'm truly grateful.
At the same time, please let me share that it's certainly possible to overdo something good and it's a bit annoying when someone tells you what to do a little bit too often, and a little bit too condescendingly
That's already enough for the first check.
She'll probably push back, but doesn't matter what she says, you got your own strategy to follow.
Personally, whatever she replies, I'd then like to use a mirror technique to make her feel the same:
Her: (whatever she says)
You: don't reply that to me!
Trust me more!
Keep more quiet or you distract me! Lower the AC output! Make this, make that! (<--- you're mimicking and exaggerating the tasking here to make your point of how annoying it is)
How does that feel to you? (<--- now you switch back to normal talk)
Does that feel a bit annoying? It does, right? Well, that's how I also feel when someone always tell me what to do
The key is to make your role play dominant and obnoxious, ideally similar to her style.
The power of this approach is that it shows rather than tell.
I used it many times, and worked great.

This is super-awesome.

It works by demonstrating one can (and likely will, if necessary) retaliate, but the fact that one is "role-playing" removes the "threat element".

Totally going to implement this.

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