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Judge shames & insults citizen for lewd mistake: share your reaction

#11 · December 11, 2023, 9:47 am

Quote from John Freeman on December 11, 2023, 9:47 am
Thank you very much Lucio, I agree.
It seems to me there are 3 conversations:
Consequences for his own sentence regarding him standing up for him: if he stayed calm saying what you proposed, little chances of an escalation in a 2nd analysis.
Appearances from the outside: what people would think. What I wrote is based on if he did not defend himself. If he defended himself the frame would have changed in the direction you noted: judge appearing as a bully (which he was).
Own self-respect: that might be the most important aspect even if it does not seem like it. We don't know until we defend ourselves. And even if we "lose" the social encounter, I now think it's worth it. The importance of our self-respect is oftentimes underestimated. And I think the 2 examples from my own experience you quoted spoke for themselves. There is another encounter I will defend against for self-respect and I now decided to prioritize my self-respect over other strategic aspects. Actually, it is strategic to defend one's own self-respect. It carries long term consequences. The job we will find another. The way we feel about ourselves stays with us long term and it's harder to heal actually.
Note: I think in these small cases from what I've seen on Youtube in USA there are no jurors. Only prosecutor, judge, +/- lawyer, scribe. I could be wrong though.
Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on December 11, 2023, 12:01 am
Wanted to make a quick note on this:
Yes, from a legal standpoint not enforcing boundaries with the judge may have been the best way to get a smaller sentence.
I'm just too clueless to say, though.
But standing there, in doubt, I'd have still enforced boundaries anyway because:
What you accept becomes "acceptable". So the moment he accepted the insults and reprimands, they also became "fair" and nobody said anything
Very true.
Only what you call as unacceptable can be unacceptable. I'd be willing to bet that if he had enforced boundaries, he would have led his own charge with more and more people calling the judge a bully, too aggressive, power-craving or, at least, unprofessional*.
Agreed.
You pay a social price for accepting poor behavior. That guy now he's buttfucker3000 who's been made fun of and insulted by the judge. He could have been instead the guy who stood up for himself, for respect, and made a judge pay the price for his bullying
100%
You may as well lose your own respect
Standing up for yourself you gain reputation, personal power, and potentially confidence and self-esteem
Definitely. As I said we underestimate the importance of that as we give more importance to social aspects/consequences. I think it is a strategic mistake even if exceptions apply here as everywhere else.
I think your post is a very important message for aspiring eagles. As we often have accepted abuse to avoid (supposed) social consequences we accepted to be treated poorly and it became the new normal. So your post is a good reminder of a healthy frame (in my opinion) towards the way we accept to be treated.
Thank you very much.

Thank you very much Lucio, I agree.

It seems to me there are 3 conversations:

Consequences for his own sentence regarding him standing up for him: if he stayed calm saying what you proposed, little chances of an escalation in a 2nd analysis.
Appearances from the outside: what people would think. What I wrote is based on if he did not defend himself. If he defended himself the frame would have changed in the direction you noted: judge appearing as a bully (which he was).
Own self-respect: that might be the most important aspect even if it does not seem like it. We don't know until we defend ourselves. And even if we "lose" the social encounter, I now think it's worth it. The importance of our self-respect is oftentimes underestimated. And I think the 2 examples from my own experience you quoted spoke for themselves. There is another encounter I will defend against for self-respect and I now decided to prioritize my self-respect over other strategic aspects. Actually, it is strategic to defend one's own self-respect. It carries long term consequences. The job we will find another. The way we feel about ourselves stays with us long term and it's harder to heal actually.

Note: I think in these small cases from what I've seen on Youtube in USA there are no jurors. Only prosecutor, judge, +/- lawyer, scribe. I could be wrong though.

Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on December 11, 2023, 12:01 am
Wanted to make a quick note on this:
Yes, from a legal standpoint not enforcing boundaries with the judge may have been the best way to get a smaller sentence.
I'm just too clueless to say, though.
But standing there, in doubt, I'd have still enforced boundaries anyway because:
What you accept becomes "acceptable". So the moment he accepted the insults and reprimands, they also became "fair" and nobody said anything

Very true.

Only what you call as unacceptable can be unacceptable. I'd be willing to bet that if he had enforced boundaries, he would have led his own charge with more and more people calling the judge a bully, too aggressive, power-craving or, at least, unprofessional*.

Agreed.

You pay a social price for accepting poor behavior. That guy now he's buttfucker3000 who's been made fun of and insulted by the judge. He could have been instead the guy who stood up for himself, for respect, and made a judge pay the price for his bullying

100%

You may as well lose your own respect
Standing up for yourself you gain reputation, personal power, and potentially confidence and self-esteem

Definitely. As I said we underestimate the importance of that as we give more importance to social aspects/consequences. I think it is a strategic mistake even if exceptions apply here as everywhere else.

I think your post is a very important message for aspiring eagles. As we often have accepted abuse to avoid (supposed) social consequences we accepted to be treated poorly and it became the new normal. So your post is a good reminder of a healthy frame (in my opinion) towards the way we accept to be treated.

Thank you very much.

Lucio Buffalmano and Jack have reacted to this post.

#12 · December 11, 2023, 10:43 am

Also, I think there's an important mind shift for aspiring eagles:

Fear of authorities/rejections/social consequences: yes these consequences can exist and can affect us. And yes sometimes it's better to strategically submit. Up to a point and in as little situations as possible. Because in the end there is more power in accepting the consequences/rejections/social consequences. That's high power. Yes, we lose social power (material/social opportunities) but we gain personal power (personal choice). And at a certain stage (the earlier the better), it's important to prioritise the latter to fly higher. Otherwise, we stay at the mercy of the group and cannot reach the stage of enlightened individualism you talk about Lucio.

In short to be a free man/woman. Like this guy if he would have stood up for himself: « yes I fucked up with the meth and the username but this does not allow you to treat me like that ». He would maybe be in jail but he would be free in his mind.

PS: the thread that keeps on giving :)

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#13 · December 11, 2023, 1:15 pm

Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on December 11, 2023, 1:15 pm
Quote from Bel on December 11, 2023, 2:36 am

Paradoxically, you're the one who taught me, together with enforcing respect, that in some situations it's better to fake "letting it pass" while taking note.
I understand that in this case the social stakes were very high, especially because the guy was recorded live and then his face was streamed across the Internet.
In most cases in life, disrespect is not televised, situations are more fluid, and self-esteem can be recovered by chalking the one situation to a "strategic choice".
(...)
OFF TOPIC
A funny personal story about a similar but different situation I once was in:
Many years ago, before TPM, I went to court to file some documents.
There were two rooms and two lines, and I didn't know which room was the right one.
I tried asking other lawyers, but none knew which room was the right one for my filing.
So I asked the courtesy to be let in one of the rooms just to ask for what line I had to do the queue on.
I went inside and approached a court employee.
But a real judge of the court was sitting on a far table in the same room.
This ensued:
Judge: What are you doing here? Don't you know that there's a line?
Me: Yes, you're right. I came in just to ask which line is the right one though, because I couldn't...
Judge: (cutting me off): WHAT ARE YOU DOING I SAID!!! YOU NEED TO GO OUT!!!! YOU NEED TO GO OUT!!! (screaming)
Me: THIS IS TOTALLY UNACCEPTABLE! YOU HAVE NO RIGHT WHATSOEVER TO YELL AT ME AND I HAVE EVERY RIGHT TO ASK FOR CLARIFICATIONS ABOUT WHICH ROOM IS THE RIGHT ONE!!!! (screaming louder than her)
Judge: (taken aback, silent, says nothing)
Me: (turning to the employee): Is this the right room for filings of XWZ?
Employee: (surprised) No, it's the other one
Me: Thank you. (turning to the Judge) IT'S UNACCEPTABLE! (I go out).
* click on blockquote to expand
I'm sure the judge in question still remembers me.
And I'm also sure my behavior was a "legal mistake", should I ever encounter that judge again in a trial.
But boy... the satisfaction 🙂
Yes, and yes.
In this specific case, since it was recorded, the social stakes were much higher.
So it's a bit of a different case.
Otherwise, from a purely maximum effectiveness point of view, if he knew for sure there were legal costs in enforcing boundaries, letting it slip may have been the right way -albeit doing so more high power would have still helped, see lesson on "execute tasks while maintaining some power"-.
OFF TOPIC
Man, that was awesome :D.
It doesn't sound like you needed TPM at all to be honest :D
OFF TOPIC

Quote from Bel on December 11, 2023, 2:36 am

Paradoxically, you're the one who taught me, together with enforcing respect, that in some situations it's better to fake "letting it pass" while taking note.
I understand that in this case the social stakes were very high, especially because the guy was recorded live and then his face was streamed across the Internet.
In most cases in life, disrespect is not televised, situations are more fluid, and self-esteem can be recovered by chalking the one situation to a "strategic choice".
(...)
OFF TOPIC
A funny personal story about a similar but different situation I once was in:
Many years ago, before TPM, I went to court to file some documents.
There were two rooms and two lines, and I didn't know which room was the right one.
I tried asking other lawyers, but none knew which room was the right one for my filing.
So I asked the courtesy to be let in one of the rooms just to ask for what line I had to do the queue on.
I went inside and approached a court employee.
But a real judge of the court was sitting on a far table in the same room.
This ensued:
Judge: What are you doing here? Don't you know that there's a line?
Me: Yes, you're right. I came in just to ask which line is the right one though, because I couldn't...
Judge: (cutting me off): WHAT ARE YOU DOING I SAID!!! YOU NEED TO GO OUT!!!! YOU NEED TO GO OUT!!! (screaming)
Me: THIS IS TOTALLY UNACCEPTABLE! YOU HAVE NO RIGHT WHATSOEVER TO YELL AT ME AND I HAVE EVERY RIGHT TO ASK FOR CLARIFICATIONS ABOUT WHICH ROOM IS THE RIGHT ONE!!!! (screaming louder than her)
Judge: (taken aback, silent, says nothing)
Me: (turning to the employee): Is this the right room for filings of XWZ?
Employee: (surprised) No, it's the other one
Me: Thank you. (turning to the Judge) IT'S UNACCEPTABLE! (I go out).
* click on blockquote to expand
I'm sure the judge in question still remembers me.
And I'm also sure my behavior was a "legal mistake", should I ever encounter that judge again in a trial.
But boy... the satisfaction 🙂

Yes, and yes.

In this specific case, since it was recorded, the social stakes were much higher.

So it's a bit of a different case.

Otherwise, from a purely maximum effectiveness point of view, if he knew for sure there were legal costs in enforcing boundaries, letting it slip may have been the right way -albeit doing so more high power would have still helped, see lesson on "execute tasks while maintaining some power"-.

OFF TOPIC

Man, that was awesome :D.

It doesn't sound like you needed TPM at all to be honest :D

OFF TOPIC

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#14 · December 11, 2023, 1:34 pm

Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on December 11, 2023, 12:01 am
What you accept becomes "acceptable"
Only what you call as unacceptable can be unacceptable

This is really good, that’s some trademark TPM empowering mindset.

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#15 · December 11, 2023, 1:58 pm

I agree. PU worthy in the mindset/self-defense aspects.

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#16 · December 11, 2023, 5:15 pm

Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on December 11, 2023, 1:15 pm
OFF TOPIC
Man, that was awesome :D.
It doesn't sound like you needed TPM at all to be honest 😀
OFF TOPIC

Thank you!
But I disagree on that, in that TPM made a big big difference :)

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#17 · December 12, 2023, 4:46 pm

Thank you @Lucio for starting the thread and everyone who contributed to further analysis of the interaction and the underlying mindsets and implied choices.

An absolute pleasure to read, and an empowering one at that!

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