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Nice guys vs Assholes
Hello TPM community,
assholes and nice guys is a topic often discussed in dating.
The question often is:
"Why do women prefer assholes to nice guys? They say they like nice guys but f*ck assholes. 1. Not fair. 2. So it's a lie"
How I view it, when people talk about assholes, they're talking about a dominant man (who could be selfish, abusive or not, but probably won't stick around) and when talking about nice guys, I think we actually mean "submissive men". Same parallel with "alpha" and "beta".
My perspective is that most women are attracted to dominant men. This is shown also through confidence being a valued trait showing ability. Confidence also appears as extraversion/social dominance. So dominance is like a meta-trait. To be dominant, one needs other traits. I view it a bit like leadership which is a meta-skill in my opinion. Instead of meta- one could say an aggregate of traits but you got the point.
So women are attracted to dominant men first and foremost. They would like to have dominant and nice men. But oftentimes they end up with a dominant men with several negative traits. That's why it's a challenge for them to find this kind of man: dominant and kind.
Of course, there is a whole spectrum here. And personal history matters. The more a woman was exposed to abusive men in her early life, the more for her it's the normal attachment. So it may vary.
What I mean is that I think that it's preferable to be dominant and not nice than submissive and nice in terms of attracting women.
One needs a minimum level of warmth of course.
I'm aware there are several generalizations here so I would be glad to know your thoughts on this.
Being an asshole, which I've been at times (come across overtly sexual, dominant and confident; take no bullshit, along with being aloof and low-warmth) can definitely attract women; it is very polarizing. Some women will love it, others will hate it. The shy girls will find it simultaneously arousing and frightening (and we all know how important it is to make a woman feel safe), the conservative girls will find it repulsive (acting indifferent at best), while the bitchy girls will only up their tests and challenges against you. That said, it can definitely work - if you switch to high-warmth, high-power at the right time. When it came time to engage the high-quality women, I always came across high-warmth, high-power. There is a time to be an asshole, and that is with attractive and low-quality women.
On the other hand, I've definitely seen guys with women who are out of their league (at least on the surface), who come across as nice, out-of-the-way and just 'normal'. I assume that the prosocial traits made up for a lack of appearance and dominant traits, especially for a relationship. Some of these women were interested in me, some were not; I assume that, as long as a minimum of value and warmth is provided, loyalty is very likely. I know a few very attractive (but flawed) women who dated below their league, often with 'safe' guys like that; I assume they are looking for the nice guy's security and loyalty. While I don't doubt that I've seen more than a few 'orbiters', I've also seen the example where a nice guy genuinely earned the attraction of another women - but these were seldom the high-quality ones either.
Like you said, the high-quality women universally ended up with dominant and nice men; I've seen and heard of many at the churches I went to. And I would agree that dominance is firstmost important, as it is linked (and identical) with many traditional associations with masculinity. If the masculine/feminine polarity isn't there, nothing is going to happen. At the same time, it is important to show prosocial traits ('nice') as well; using the famous example of the monkey beta who was more powerful than the alpha, being nice and displaying cooperation can lead to friendships, alliances and real social power. Of course, strong boundaries are needed as well, along with dominance when need be - but that's what we are all here to be.
Hello Kellvo,
thanks for your answer.
To be more clear, I don't think it's a good strategy to be an asshole. However, I think it's a good strategy to be dominant.
I assume that the prosocial traits made up for a lack of appearance and dominant traits, especially for a relationship.
Yes, I think that when women end their bad boy phase (and fail to retain one), they prioritize in the next phase a nice guy even if he's less dominant.
I know a few very attractive (but flawed) women who dated below their league, often with 'safe' guys like that; I assume they are looking for the nice guy's security and loyalty.
I've also seen the example where a nice guy genuinely earned the attraction of another women - but these were seldom the high-quality ones either.
I share your observation.
Like you said, the high-quality women universally ended up with dominant and nice men; I've seen and heard of many at the churches I went to. And I would agree that dominance is firstmost important, as it is linked (and identical) with many traditional associations with masculinity. If the masculine/feminine polarity isn't there, nothing is going to happen. At the same time, it is important to show prosocial traits ('nice') as well; using the famous example of the monkey beta who was more powerful than the alpha, being nice and displaying cooperation can lead to friendships, alliances and real social power. Of course, strong boundaries are needed as well, along with dominance when need be - but that's what we are all here to be.
Yeah I see it the same way. I think that if one is a "nice" guy, it's to the person's advantage to up their dominance with women. At the right time and in the right way. For instance on dating apps, if the woman can see that she can task you and one-up you then you fail the test. One wants to have a normal conversation and exchange with a woman. This is a mistake in my opinion as women want to see if you're more dominant than her. If you're not then you're way less attractive.
It's like for us if she has nice pictures on her Bumble/Tinder and you switch to WA and see she's ugly.
