Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on October 7, 2023, 3:42 pm

Power Duck, can I be honest?

I see a few negatives frames there that don't need to be.

But the main one is the question itself:

You didn't sign up to PU to be a (legally speaking) adult who needs to persuade his parents if he can travel to Berlin (or anywhere).

You just inform them that you're going.

Quote from John Freeman on October 7, 2023, 4:00 pm

Alright, so you can say: news flash. A huge proportion of the World population is 30-40 yo and they’re not serial killers.

Most victims are killed or raped by a relative. Most people die on the road on the way to work not abroad. Most abused children are abused by family members. So one could even make a case that strangers are safer than family. Also strangers are just people you don’t know yet. All our friends, colleagues, lovers were strangers first. So outside of their own perception it’s just factually wrong.

So safety seems a very important value in your family.

Quote from Power Duck on October 7, 2023, 4:24 pm

I get your point Lucio.

I would do that if I had my own money, but I don't. Most people my age nowadays study and live with our parents money, due to that reason I have to ask for permission to spend that money. I could work and get it sure, but the situation isn't as simple as that.

Of course I still could say: "I'm going to Berlin". But I don't have the resources/power to maintain that statement. It's a disempowering situation of course, I'm legally an adult but I'm still treated as a teen. I can demand proper treatment in case of being disempowered but saying "I'm going to Berlin with your money even though you don't want to" doesn't seem to be of much use.

You didn't sign up to PU to be a (legally speaking) adult who needs to persuade his parents if he can travel to Berlin (or anywhere).

I believe this is meant to be an empowering/value adding statement hence the reason for me providing information above however, Lucio you don't have the whole picture of my economic situation/family dynamic, as I mentioned young adults still living with parents or maintained by parents is now the norm at least in Spain. I feel shamed by that statement I would appreciate a more respectful tone.

Anyways if you think this post isn't value adding feel free to delete it.

Quote from Power Duck on October 7, 2023, 4:40 pm

Quote from John Freeman on October 7, 2023, 4:00 pm

Alright, so you can say: news flash. A huge proportion of the World population is 30-40 yo and they’re not serial killers.

Most victims are killed or raped by a relative. Most people die on the road on the way to work not abroad. Most abused children are abused by family members. So one could even make a case that strangers are safer than family. Also strangers are just people you don’t know yet. All our friends, colleagues, lovers were strangers first. So outside of their own perception it’s just factually wrong.

So safety seems a very important value in your family.

Thanks John.

Yeah safety is important for them, although that safety usually leans more towards great fear of every potential danger no matter how small the chance. Fortunately that comfort zone they have is becoming smaller.

Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on October 7, 2023, 4:49 pm

Hey Power Duck,

To me, it was either I said that, or skipped it (and lost some respect along the way, to be honest).

Many times I skip.

Sometimes I run the risk of destroying some rapport / offending someone because I care enough to use my time in the hope that my message may add value.

Meaning: the only reason I said that is because I like you/respect you/cared (or I'd have skipped).

I'm sorry you feel I feel a bit shamed by that statement.
I really do because I don't want to cause that -my goal was more to "jolt into a different approach"-.

And at the same time, I still believe that statement holds true.

From a strategic point of view, you also may want to add those extra details you provided about financial dependence to avoid self-disempowering (as much).
Because, frankly speaking, from my point of view, you damage your own status with sentences like "to my surprise she gave me permission" (and you also send not-so-good self-signals, in my humble opinion).

Also, I'd personally encourage to think of oneself as more able to find a way.

There's like 9 months to Spring 2024.

One can save up until then, find a side job, hitchhike or... Heck, why not, even win the lottery.
Anything can happen within 9 months and I think it's important to believe in oneself enough to also believe one can find a way to raise 1k or so within 9 months.

But hey, I'm just an old-school guy who was way too rebellious in his days (wished his parents would say "you can't" just to prove them wrong).
And maybe I'm too out of touch and don't even remember what it was like to be living with parents and being financially dependent.

So if my point of view adds no value, no problem.
Ignore it.

Quote from Power Duck on October 7, 2023, 5:09 pm

Okay, now I get where you're coming from. I appreciate the apology and response, so no problem all good.

Yeah I agree, what I stated above was really low power, and came from a frame of: What a surprise that my mother thinks I'm capable enough to go abroad, like a big boy.

But when I think about it, its the fact that they still treat me as a teen (basically my whole family) what caused this frame in the first place. Of course I noticed it and from time to time I do something that involves being more independent and self reliant. But still there are so many things wrong and so many things to change that I can't have so many things in my head at the same time.

Your point of view does add value. I should think higher of myself, and not let how my relatives think of me change the fact that I can do well enough without them. I didn't gave much thought to this matter in the past. Maybe it's time to change it, even if it does mean having less time to study/free time and having to acquire more responsibilities. That's  going to change.

Cheers.

P.S:

Meaning: the only reason I said that is because I like you/respect you/cared (or I'd have skipped).

Thanks I'll bear that in mind from now on.

About sending not so good signals the more I think about it the more I agree, what the hell  was thinking about?

Edit: thinking better about it, forget about me prefering a more "respectful" tone, apologies for the nuisance. Now I  truly get what you mean, I didn't got PU and haven't gone through all what I've gone to ask for permission, to go to a city for one day. It's funny It's exactly how you phrased it, but now, now it hits different.

Quote from John Freeman on October 9, 2023, 7:22 am

Yeah Power Duck, I agree with Lucio.

Sometimes you'll be offended by people who care for you. That is what I call a friend. Because if they offend you (unwillingly and they won't know what offends you beforehand) it means as Lucio said that they're willing to risk the relationship for your own good. That is they're ready to lose in order for you to gain. Who would not want someone like that on their team?

So yeah I get it it's an insecurity and I think you did well by speaking out. I mean that it allows you to address it. When we get offended it's an opportunity to think about why. I'm going to post about an insecurity of mine real soon BTW. So that you know I'm including myself in all the statements above.

So I'll go one step further than Lucio: they treat you as a teen because you allow them to treat you as a teen. You're the only one who's responsible for your independence, not them. That is what adulthood is. So I get it it's complicated. You'll have to let some leisures on the side and some free time. That's the price of independence. Your parents will of course be happy to keep you dependent as it gives them power over you. So I think it's on you. I agree with Lucio and I already said it if I remember well: as a 19 y.o. living with your parents I think you'll benefit a lot in terms of independence from having a student job.

(I worked along my studies during 17 years so I know it's possible and I studied engineering and medicine, so if I can do it...)

I think your second message shows your willingness to learn and it's awesome for me to read. Also I think what's at stake for you in this period of life is the transition to adulthood. So every step you can take in this direction (of independence) is great. When I talk about adulthood I mean mentally and emotionally. And it does not stop at 25 or 30, it's a long journey to become an adult. So again we're all in the same boat here.

And if we go back to going one day abroad alone with the money you earned: what a self-signal! The self-signal of earning your own money is so important for self-development that I think it's actually more important than the money itself. Believe it or not.

Off-topic

On the topic of being offended for our own good. I personally lose respect for the person if I took the risk of risking the relationship/rapport with the person for them and they don't see it. Then for me we cannot be close friends.

Example: I risked telling a friend that he should think well before having children/house with his GF. They were having quite frequent fights and I saw him cry a lot and be really disturbed by this manipulative woman. When I told him I thought he took it well. Of course I was diplomatic walking on egg shells and all.

Several week laters he told me in an indirect was that basically it was like I attacked him. It hurt me as I took risks to tell him something that I thought could be beneficial for him. Lost respect for him, took some distance. He's now a friend not a close friend anymore. But it's actually the proper distance with him so no regrets.

After that I also learned that when people are in love they won't even listen to their friends. So all good. I also learned that if a friend tells that to me I hope I'll thank him for giving me this high-risk advice and interpret it as well-meaning.

/Off-topic

Quote from B on October 9, 2023, 11:23 am

I have a slightly different perspective here Guys:

We need to work with reality, and adapt our message to the readiness and situation of the person.

As an unrelated example: if someone weighs 300 kilos and I tell him that he shouldn't eat much more than lettuce and carrots, that's not useful.

Or rather: it's useful in the abstract, but not in the concrete setting.

Because it's just plain impossible for him to eat lettuce and carrots at that point, without going through other intermediate steps.

We can't suggest people to adopt a "slow u-turn approach" to redress power imbalances in low stakes situations, and then when someone is dealing with his parents - with whom he lives - just go in and tell him "you tell 'em you'll go and that's it". It's bound to be interpreted as an aggression, and disrupt his life in so many ways.

If Power Duck is in a situation where his life is enmeshed with his parents - without any fault of his - and he depends on them for his studies and for his money and for basically all his life, how is that going to be ever possible?

I once was exactly in a similar situation, and I know how it was.

With this I'm not saying that pointing out what would be the ideal solution and outcome is wrong. It can have value to say what's on one's mind to give a perspective of the "other side" that now is impossible for someone, to give someone a glimpse of what life can be on the other side.

But it has to be done carefully, and tactfully. And even then, it's totally normal that there's going to be push back.

We all have - I myself certainly do - our own tendency to rush there with a solution, without really having the patience to understand the situation. But the latter is always the best and friendliest way.

Now, coming to the situation at hand, I really don't know how to solve the issue.

I don't even think there is a possible "good solution" that is not bound to disrupt the equilibrium.

In my personal life, what I did to address this kind of push-back by my parents was just get angry and tell 'em off, and go anyways. But even then, I was much older, and had much less to lose.

Another asbtractly possible solution would be to start adopting inverse psychology. But that doesn't sound good as well, and it's not a given that it will work, so I won't go down suggesting that route.

One thing is for certain though: assuming we are dealing with controlling parents as mine were, they are not going to let a thing like this slip without retaliation. So I would be very careful about going through the "I'll do it anyways" route. And might even consider skipping this for now, to slowly reempower myself for the time when you won't have much to lose anyways.

As you, Power Duck, no doubt are already doing in many ways without even recognizing it, if you're like me.

Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on October 9, 2023, 11:57 am

Great message Bel, I think it was really needed, thank you for sharing it.

I'd like to add that I still also the benefits of both approaches.

And I also think that the "stronger approach" may also be needed.

The 300kg man can also benefit from hearing "from now on, greens only" because that gives him a preview of the level of effort that's needed (while in his mind he may have been thinking of cutting 1 of his 5 daily doughnuts only).
It has the benefit of the potential "shock effect" about what's possible and doable. And gives him a target of where he wants to end up (healthy eating / empowering life).

Anyway, back to the more technical level, one area I saw possible improvements is this (and Power Duck already highlighted that):

Sister: how old are they?
Power Duck: around 30-40 (I didn't see the covert frame here)

I think it was possible to see the issue coming if one was already in a strategic mindset approach.

Also because: how can you know the age when we've just started talking?

This is a case where strategic thinking can help both achieving goal, while also being equally, if not more, truthful.

What if Ali joins, and Ali is much closer to Power Duck's age?

What if some folks who are similar age of Power Duck join even while not using the forum much, or if someone new joins between now and then?

What if an 80 year old joins?

Is it "worse" because he's older, or does he gain "protective grandpa" points?

So, foreseeing the issue, one can reply:

Sister: how old are they?
Power Duck: well, the group is already forming, so not sure, but potentially a whole spectrum of ages

This can also be added now, by the way, to assuage fear.

Another good option:

• Say how helpful the community has been

So the frame is already "those guys are good for me".
Edit: the most manipulative parents will actually want to stop their child from going even more if they know the community is useful/empowering. But I'm assuming we're not at that level here.