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Power moves: a sign of weakness?

#1 · May 9, 2020, 9:32 am

Hi guys,

I don't think I use power moves in 98% of cases because I act from my inner being, with my values and for my purpose. So I don't have time for these "who's the top dog" games. I have work to do and progress to make.

What I notice is that to me it's a sign of weakness to pull a power move. If you have integrity, that you are honest, (semi-)good self-esteem then the only power moves you'll need are to defend oneself. What do you guys think?

"A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defence, never for attack"

#2 · May 9, 2020, 11:18 am

I want to clarify: this is nothing to do with the website title, which I think is great. My question is related to people who initiate power plays. As an example: you're going about your day and somebody try to dominate you for no reason (Lucio: for instance your story with the guy at the gym and the water fountain).

#3 · May 9, 2020, 5:45 pm

Hi John,

I like the track that you're on, aiming to rise above petty games and emotions to do what's best for your general well-being and personal values. While I agree with your comment, I deeply believe that powerlessness corrupts.

Power at its most fundamental level is simply the measure or extent to which an individual can get what he wants.

If, for example, what you want is noble, virtuous, and brings a positive benefit to society and you use your power to achieve that noble goal, then power moves can be used for much more than only defense. At that point, a power move is a vehicle to take you to the honorable end goal you are looking for.

I recommend you take a quick look at The Power Moves Values (at the bottom of this page) but here's one that articulates my point:

The Power Moves: "You’re only as virtuous as your personal power allows you to be."

Wouldn't you agree?

Lucio Buffalmano has reacted to this post.

#4 · May 9, 2020, 6:57 pm

I can understand the general gist. When I am on my purpose, I barely notice when others play games. I look back after the fact and I notice - 'oh, [X] was playing a dominance game with me. How fascinating.'

However, whatever you mean to or not, dominance games are a part of life. There will always be people who have something to gain from adopting parasitic, manipulative and malign behavior towards you. Thieves exist, evil exists, and you need to know how they work so you can counter them - and cut them down without mercy when need be.

Because I assure you - you need look no further than nature to see what happens when an animal cannot defend itself. Don't be a victim. Show morality towards those who don't play games, and be ruthless to those who do.

Lucio Buffalmano has reacted to this post.

#5 · May 9, 2020, 8:00 pm

I agree with you both. I also agree with the values, apart from: "there can be no good without mastering evil", I would replace "evil" by "aggression". I agree that the real "peaceful warrior" is the one that could hurt but does not. But you need to develop the ability to hurt if necessary first.

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#6 · May 10, 2020, 3:48 am

You're gonna do just fine man, I can tell. Nothing wrong with serving the light. Just avoid the worst mistakes of the Jedi - passivity, isolation and denial of the darker parts of their nature - and strive to be the best you can be.

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#7 · May 10, 2020, 5:11 am

Thanks for the support. It's a good point. Passivity: no, Isolation: I did this mistake and I'm still crawling out of it, denial of the darker parts of my nature: no, but I had to face this in the past, I am at peace now. I think the last part is what too many people shy away from and that's one of the reasons they end up projecting it into the world, because of their denial.

“Until you make the unconscious conscious, it will direct your life and you will call it fate.” - Jung

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#8 · May 10, 2020, 6:55 am

Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on May 10, 2020, 6:55 am
What a great thread.
All the most important answers I could have given are already here.
I will make a proper article on this topic because it's an important one.
But just some quick more thoughts on it:
It Depends on How You Define "Power Move"
The way you're defining a power move seems to be that of showing power over others for social climbing.
And that's probably the most typical definition.
With that definition, I have the same feeling.
I see the game, take note of it, and think "LOL, what a game player". Then, most of the time, I de-value the individual (as Ali says "rising above the petty games").
Then, depending on the situation, I might either address the game or ignore it (many times social climbers are hurting themselves more than they are hurting you, and addressing it lowers yourself to their level).
But if you define a power move as anything that affects the power dynamics of an interaction, like Kellvo seemed to define it, then it's different.
As he says, they're part of life, and can be used in all possible ways.
Displaying power can be pre-emptive, it can serve to answer to aggression, or it can also be value-adding.
Power Moves as Signs of Insecurity? Sometimes Yes, Sometimes Not...
Keeping in mind that whether or not a behavior is motivated by insecurity can be up to interpretation, I believe that yes, sometimes power moves can be mainly motivated by insecurity.
However, the label "insecurity" sometimes is used because we don't like that behavior, or because we are on the receiving end of it, so we try to undermine it.
Example of insecurity
I'll give you an example: yesterday I went nearby 4 people who were playing football table. They had just finished, and one guy immediately came over to me to shake hands. He stood very close to me, asking the usual background questions such as "where are you from, how long you stay here, etc.", and then introducing me to the group.
Not overly aggressive or anything, but together with the surface friendliness, it was also a behavior that had deep effects on the power dynamics.
Then he introduces me to the group, which gives him power since he is chaperoning me instead of letting me do my own intros. And then pointing to one girl, he adds: "and that's my girlfriend".
This whole behavior could be considered a power move. And you can also read insecurity in it. Such as "is this guy a potential threat to my girlfriend? Let me get to him first and point out right away as to who is "my" girlfriend".
Still, even if the initial reason for a power move is insecurity, it doesn't mean that you need to be kind and ignore a power move.
Whether it stems from insecurity or not, if that behavior is damaging you, you still need to act on it.
If it's not damaging you, then ignoring or "taking the high road" is perfectly fine.
Power moves not out of insecurity
Albeit the line can be blurry, plenty of times power moves are not mainly driven by insecurity.
They can be used to assert or reassert dominance and power, to take someone's pulse and test him, or just out of pleasure to throw one's weight around.
Take Trump for example: there are people like Trump who are just not happy until they assert dominance over anyone around them. For them, life is about dominating or being dominated.
I don't like that attitude, and I think it doesn't make for a very fulfilling life. But it's not necessarily motivated by insecurity.
Or take Incognito's example on the other thread when two firefighters who reported to him told him "we could hit you and nothing would happen". Reading insecurity in there would require quite some mental gymnastics. That was an attempt to overthrow the official power structure and to potentially push him to quit.
Calling those types of behavior "insecure" can make us feel better by devaluing the aggressor.
And feel free to do that, too. But to be effective, you're better served if you also have effective strategies to deal with those power moves.
In Sum
Yes, sometimes power moves are motivated by insecurity.
And yes, oftentimes you can just shake your head at them, smile, take note and devalue the power mover, and move on.
Often, if you ignore it well and publicly, you can also look superior and gain social status.
On the other hand, power dynamics are everywhere. And sometimes they have nothing to do with insecurity.
Labeling an aggressor "insecure" can make us feel better, but it's not always accurate.
And it doesn't always serve your interests.
Yes, he might be an asshole. And he might be an asshole driven by insecurity. But at that point, it's only relevant for theoretical understanding. In terms of real-world effectiveness, if the attack is damaging you, it doesn't matter whether it stems from insecurity, assholishness, or will to dominate: you must still do something about it.

What a great thread.

All the most important answers I could have given are already here.

I will make a proper article on this topic because it's an important one.
But just some quick more thoughts on it:

It Depends on How You Define "Power Move"

The way you're defining a power move seems to be that of showing power over others for social climbing.

And that's probably the most typical definition.
With that definition, I have the same feeling.
I see the game, take note of it, and think "LOL, what a game player". Then, most of the time, I de-value the individual (as Ali says "rising above the petty games").
Then, depending on the situation, I might either address the game or ignore it (many times social climbers are hurting themselves more than they are hurting you, and addressing it lowers yourself to their level).

But if you define a power move as anything that affects the power dynamics of an interaction, like Kellvo seemed to define it, then it's different.
As he says, they're part of life, and can be used in all possible ways.
Displaying power can be pre-emptive, it can serve to answer to aggression, or it can also be value-adding.

Power Moves as Signs of Insecurity? Sometimes Yes, Sometimes Not...

Keeping in mind that whether or not a behavior is motivated by insecurity can be up to interpretation, I believe that yes, sometimes power moves can be mainly motivated by insecurity.

However, the label "insecurity" sometimes is used because we don't like that behavior, or because we are on the receiving end of it, so we try to undermine it.

Example of insecurity

I'll give you an example: yesterday I went nearby 4 people who were playing football table. They had just finished, and one guy immediately came over to me to shake hands. He stood very close to me, asking the usual background questions such as "where are you from, how long you stay here, etc.", and then introducing me to the group.

Not overly aggressive or anything, but together with the surface friendliness, it was also a behavior that had deep effects on the power dynamics.

Then he introduces me to the group, which gives him power since he is chaperoning me instead of letting me do my own intros. And then pointing to one girl, he adds: "and that's my girlfriend".

This whole behavior could be considered a power move. And you can also read insecurity in it. Such as "is this guy a potential threat to my girlfriend? Let me get to him first and point out right away as to who is "my" girlfriend".

Still, even if the initial reason for a power move is insecurity, it doesn't mean that you need to be kind and ignore a power move.
Whether it stems from insecurity or not, if that behavior is damaging you, you still need to act on it.

If it's not damaging you, then ignoring or "taking the high road" is perfectly fine.

Power moves not out of insecurity

Albeit the line can be blurry, plenty of times power moves are not mainly driven by insecurity.

They can be used to assert or reassert dominance and power, to take someone's pulse and test him, or just out of pleasure to throw one's weight around.

Take Trump for example: there are people like Trump who are just not happy until they assert dominance over anyone around them. For them, life is about dominating or being dominated.
I don't like that attitude, and I think it doesn't make for a very fulfilling life. But it's not necessarily motivated by insecurity.

Or take Incognito's example on the other thread when two firefighters who reported to him told him "we could hit you and nothing would happen". Reading insecurity in there would require quite some mental gymnastics. That was an attempt to overthrow the official power structure and to potentially push him to quit.

Calling those types of behavior "insecure" can make us feel better by devaluing the aggressor.
And feel free to do that, too. But to be effective, you're better served if you also have effective strategies to deal with those power moves.

In Sum

Yes, sometimes power moves are motivated by insecurity.

And yes, oftentimes you can just shake your head at them, smile, take note and devalue the power mover, and move on.
Often, if you ignore it well and publicly, you can also look superior and gain social status.

On the other hand, power dynamics are everywhere. And sometimes they have nothing to do with insecurity.

Labeling an aggressor "insecure" can make us feel better, but it's not always accurate.
And it doesn't always serve your interests.

Yes, he might be an asshole. And he might be an asshole driven by insecurity. But at that point, it's only relevant for theoretical understanding. In terms of real-world effectiveness, if the attack is damaging you, it doesn't matter whether it stems from insecurity, assholishness, or will to dominate: you must still do something about it.

Kellvo, B and Illystorm have reacted to this post.

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#9 · May 10, 2020, 10:51 am

Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on May 10, 2020, 6:55 am
But if you define a power move as anything that affects the power dynamics of an interaction, like Kellvo seemed to define it, then it's different.
2. Then he introduces me to the group, which gives him power since he is chaperoning me instead of letting me do my own intros.
3. Whether it stems from insecurity or not, if that behavior is damaging you, you still need to act on it. If it's not damaging you, then ignoring or "taking the high road" is perfectly fine.
4. That was an attempt to overthrow the official power structure and to potentially push him to quit.

Thank you for your elaborate answer. Glad you like the thread.

Yes, hence my answer after Ali and Kellvo's answers (thank you guys!).
As a default rule, when you introduce people, would you always do it yourself or let them do it (I know it's another topic)? Or "it depends?"
Gold nugget, thanks!
Of course! No doubt about it.

Once again, thanks for the clarification. I agree as well that to be able to talk about something, definition is the first thing to do.

#10 · February 22, 2023, 12:05 pm

Quote from Illystorm on February 22, 2023, 12:05 pm
Quote from Ali Scarlett on May 9, 2020, 5:45 pm
Hi John,
I like the track that you're on, aiming to rise above petty games and emotions to do what's best for your general well-being and personal values. While I agree with your comment, I deeply believe that powerlessness corrupts.
Power at its most fundamental level is simply the measure or extent to which an individual can get what he wants.
If, for example, what you want is noble, virtuous, and brings a positive benefit to society and you use your power to achieve that noble goal, then power moves can be used for much more than only defense. At that point, a power move is a vehicle to take you to the honorable end goal you are looking for.
I recommend you take a quick look at The Power Moves Values (at the bottom of this page) but here's one that articulates my point:
The Power Moves: "You’re only as virtuous as your personal power allows you to be."
Wouldn't you agree?
This answer made me realize an important thing, and why I've always been aversed to using power moves
My goals have been simply neutral so far, so I could never justify using power moves for goals that are not good (but just neutral).
While I see many people have no issues using them while being in my same situation
I'm not sure if I should try to be more like these people or just stick to use them defensively as you said
On the other hand, it's true that the benefit of using them could outweigh the risk (of course if one is skilled enough to use them with grace, which is still not my case)
This is something that has always troubled me a lot, and for now my answer has merely been to channel my aggression into my work (seeking mastery in hard skills, training etc), while paying for getting what I want (the simplest of value exchange) or giving other forms of basic value (gratitude or even better, wise advice)
Then to me it has always been about being free, else seeking achievement to earn power indirectly in the form of respect.
So my question is: is it ok to use power moves for neutral goals? Should we stick to win-win situations where the value exchange is not just economical but also in the form of stronger connections? Or should we aim to be truly free and powerful like the Enlightened Machiavellian?
Or maybe there is a middle ground.
It looks quite hard to find a balance...
Oh btw, I want to show my sincere appreciation to Lucio that, despite giving true value, never uses power moves offensively here (neither outside, given my positive impression of him)

Quote from Ali Scarlett on May 9, 2020, 5:45 pm
Hi John,
I like the track that you're on, aiming to rise above petty games and emotions to do what's best for your general well-being and personal values. While I agree with your comment, I deeply believe that powerlessness corrupts.
Power at its most fundamental level is simply the measure or extent to which an individual can get what he wants.
If, for example, what you want is noble, virtuous, and brings a positive benefit to society and you use your power to achieve that noble goal, then power moves can be used for much more than only defense. At that point, a power move is a vehicle to take you to the honorable end goal you are looking for.
I recommend you take a quick look at The Power Moves Values (at the bottom of this page) but here's one that articulates my point:
The Power Moves: "You’re only as virtuous as your personal power allows you to be."
Wouldn't you agree?

This answer made me realize an important thing, and why I've always been aversed to using power moves

My goals have been simply neutral so far, so I could never justify using power moves for goals that are not good (but just neutral).
While I see many people have no issues using them while being in my same situation

I'm not sure if I should try to be more like these people or just stick to use them defensively as you said

On the other hand, it's true that the benefit of using them could outweigh the risk (of course if one is skilled enough to use them with grace, which is still not my case)

This is something that has always troubled me a lot, and for now my answer has merely been to channel my aggression into my work (seeking mastery in hard skills, training etc), while paying for getting what I want (the simplest of value exchange) or giving other forms of basic value (gratitude or even better, wise advice)

Then to me it has always been about being free, else seeking achievement to earn power indirectly in the form of respect.

So my question is: is it ok to use power moves for neutral goals? Should we stick to win-win situations where the value exchange is not just economical but also in the form of stronger connections? Or should we aim to be truly free and powerful like the Enlightened Machiavellian?
Or maybe there is a middle ground.

It looks quite hard to find a balance...

Oh btw, I want to show my sincere appreciation to Lucio that, despite giving true value, never uses power moves offensively here (neither outside, given my positive impression of him)

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