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Power moves: a sign of weakness?

#11 · February 22, 2023, 3:56 pm

Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on February 22, 2023, 3:56 pm
Quote from Illystorm on February 22, 2023, 12:05 pm
This answer made me realize an important thing, and why I've always been aversed to using power moves
My goals have been simply neutral so far, so I could never justify using power moves for goals that are not good (but just neutral).
While I see many people have no issues using them while being in my same situation
I'm not sure if I should try to be more like these people or just stick to use them defensively as you said
On the other hand, it's true that the benefit of using them could outweigh the risk (of course if one is skilled enough to use them with grace, which is still not my case)
This is something that has always troubled me a lot, and for now my answer has merely been to channel my aggression into my work (seeking mastery in hard skills, training etc), while paying for getting what I want (the simplest of value exchange) or giving other forms of basic value (gratitude or even better, wise advice)
Then to me it has always been about being free, else seeking achievement to earn power indirectly in the form of respect.
So my question is: is it ok to use power moves for neutral goals? Should we stick to win-win situations where the value exchange is not just economical but also in the form of stronger connections? Or should we aim to be truly free and powerful like the Enlightened Machiavellian?
Or maybe there is a middle ground.
It looks quite hard to find a balance...
Oh btw, I want to show my sincere appreciation to Lucio that, despite giving true value, never uses power moves offensively here (neither outside, given my positive impression of him)
Your stance of being averse to power moves and manipulations is a common one among "good people".
And so is the feeling or preference of "calling yourself out of the game", and do your thing.
It comes at a price though and, to reference my latest journal entry, the strategy of "calling yourself out of the dance" can never be truly complete unless you go live as a hermit.
Sometimes you're going to be trusted on the dance floor, or step into a place that is a dance floor -and then you're a lot better off if you learned at least a couple of steps. Or people may be dancing over you-.
So, for your question on "defensive only" VS "proactive as well", of course proactive, at times, is also fair -PU uses a couple of examples to show that many "grey areas" are often fair game-.
But I cannot think of any general rule that will tell you exactly when it's "fair" or not, so I think one should always refer to a concrete situation/example.

Quote from Illystorm on February 22, 2023, 12:05 pm
This answer made me realize an important thing, and why I've always been aversed to using power moves
My goals have been simply neutral so far, so I could never justify using power moves for goals that are not good (but just neutral).
While I see many people have no issues using them while being in my same situation
I'm not sure if I should try to be more like these people or just stick to use them defensively as you said
On the other hand, it's true that the benefit of using them could outweigh the risk (of course if one is skilled enough to use them with grace, which is still not my case)
This is something that has always troubled me a lot, and for now my answer has merely been to channel my aggression into my work (seeking mastery in hard skills, training etc), while paying for getting what I want (the simplest of value exchange) or giving other forms of basic value (gratitude or even better, wise advice)
Then to me it has always been about being free, else seeking achievement to earn power indirectly in the form of respect.
So my question is: is it ok to use power moves for neutral goals? Should we stick to win-win situations where the value exchange is not just economical but also in the form of stronger connections? Or should we aim to be truly free and powerful like the Enlightened Machiavellian?
Or maybe there is a middle ground.
It looks quite hard to find a balance...
Oh btw, I want to show my sincere appreciation to Lucio that, despite giving true value, never uses power moves offensively here (neither outside, given my positive impression of him)

Your stance of being averse to power moves and manipulations is a common one among "good people".

And so is the feeling or preference of "calling yourself out of the game", and do your thing.

It comes at a price though and, to reference my latest journal entry, the strategy of "calling yourself out of the dance" can never be truly complete unless you go live as a hermit.
Sometimes you're going to be trusted on the dance floor, or step into a place that is a dance floor -and then you're a lot better off if you learned at least a couple of steps. Or people may be dancing over you-.

So, for your question on "defensive only" VS "proactive as well", of course proactive, at times, is also fair -PU uses a couple of examples to show that many "grey areas" are often fair game-.

But I cannot think of any general rule that will tell you exactly when it's "fair" or not, so I think one should always refer to a concrete situation/example.

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#12 · February 22, 2023, 8:07 pm

I see Lucio, thanks for sharing your viewpoint

Well, I suppose the general rule is "using them when something is truly important for us"

Which is ofc not a rule for when it's right to use them, but rather when it's gonna be more likely that a good person will use them

But now I remembered something I had read about the differentiation between wants VS needs

If we want our want to prevail on other's needs, then we're being too domineering. In this case, power moves shouldn't be used else it means being outright evil.
If we let our needs being trampled upon by other's wants, we're being big pushovers. In this case, it's 100% right to use a power move to get what we need

Then you have the wants VS wants and needs VS needs that are the gray area.
I believe one should fight for his/her own needs and negotiate for his/her own wants

But again, everyone has his/her way to define what "wants" and "needs" are for them, and this is where the model ends and reality begins

I'd argue that more rational and cold people try to get their wants without being very able to understand if what they're clashing against is another people's want or VS a need... whereas more emotional people can have strong attachment to a want to the point of considering it a need (this one is just a theory of mine)

Then there are the whole other concepts of social value, authority, value exchange (and many more)... which also are to be taken into account aside from this... yes it's complicated :)

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