Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on October 12, 2023, 7:35 am

You owned that one, Kavalier!

The only thing is that that guy was disempowering with "let's be intelligent", while trying to add value.

So there was a negative component, together with a positive one.

Your move punished the negative one, while also spurning  the good one -throwing the baby out with the bathwater?-.

I personally value a lot people who give free advice (in my case, which may not be your case at all, especially in places where I'm clueless like the gym, and the advice to look at yourself in the mirror seems solid to me).
Even when not exactly useful, I still like to reward the good intent. One because they may give good advice later on, and two because they may add value to those who may need that advice, so it's good to encourage value-giving behavior from my point of view.

So one way to do that:

Chav: "Folks, let's be intelligent, train looking at the mirror"
Kavalier: Hey man, thanks for the advice, really, I appreciate you wanting to help us.
Just one thing, when you use the word "let's be intelligent" it seems like you're suggesting we're stupid, and that's not very cool to be honest

Then as you explain, you may add bits like:

Yeah, yeah, thanks, the only reason I'm saying it is because you seem a cool guy man

And then:

Yeah, yeah, we cool, thanks for the tip man (if you have anything else in the future, happy to learn)

I put that in parenthesis because may be you don't need/want any tip.

As usual, you were there, so you know better.

If your goal was to make the guy knock it off with his unrequested and disempowering advice, you did great (and your proposed move of shaking your head as if to way "weird guy" sounds great to me. You were two VS one, and those dynamics also matter socially: it's usually the individual guy that looks losing against the group).

Quote from Kavalier on October 12, 2023, 4:56 pm

Thank you for your advice, Lucio! Also great to receive a feedback that shows I'm improving with PU, some years ago I wouldn't have even noticed the negative component. I would have accepted the advice, felt embarassed for doing something "stupid", and with time that would have slowly become the standard way people in the group would talk to me.

Also you reminded me of being strategic with my answers, which I do not always apply. It's crazy how value giving and value taking can come together in the same act. I'll pay attention to that from now on.

Like you, I also enjoy receiving free advice. I usually thank people even if I think their advice is not something I agree with (happens a lot when you're starting a new job, and people assume your newness to the place equals to inexperience). It's also good opportunity to make friends. I'll also keep your suggested formats for cases like this.

Why I didn't care to spurn Chav in this case:

I think Chav was too overvearing in his tone of voice and choice of words to tolerate. Chav is the usual wanna be tough guy, low warmth, does not interact much and meets greetings with coldness. Except, Chav recently opened a supplements store near the gym and suddenly became somewhat (emphasis on somewhat) friendly. The first time he approached me some time ago was to tell me about it.

Also, the advice was directed at two people who have been training at that place for quite some time and don't need much advice (The mirror thing in the end boils down to personal preference: for some people it's good for watching one's execution; for others, it may be distracting, and may make it harder to develop body awareness). All this time in the gym, and that was the first time Chav had advice to offer - no real advice, since there was nothing to really fix. So we don't need him. Chav has nothing to offer, and the gym is a social group I'm not investing in.

Thinking about it now, and having read your reply to Power Duck's sister's boyfriend thread, I believe there may have been another reason for Chav to play the teacher: before I joined him in the machine, Chap was talking to the new, attractive, female teacher. Female presence can indeed induce male to male aggression in some animals, after all :D

Quote from Kavalier on October 13, 2023, 4:53 am

Update

Met Chap and Chav today again at the gym. Chap, who I didn't know before, greeted me warmly, and when I greeted Chav he was nicer than usual! It proves that yes, some people go around trying to test others' as targets for social climbing, and soften as soon as you show you're hard to hit. It also shows that it's a good idea to put an end to disrespecting behaviour when they're still small. You accept the tone now because it's small, tomorrow they do it again, people around start making jokes you don't like, and... There you have it. This is how you end up being the person who people joke about, and having difficulty getting others to respect you.

Reflecting on it, I think the key to why it worked was that I delivered the "mirror" line in jest and didn't thread-expand on the "let's be intelligent". This way, I addressed Chav's disempowering behaviour without being agressive back, so it prevented bad blood from developing. Also, it gave me and Chap a good laugh, which brought closer. In the end, perhaps addressing his last "these guys are crazy" power move, which I thought I was at fault for not answering, might have been counterproductive. The message had already been sent, and might have led to bad blood.

That said, there was still room for finessing, and here is where Lucio's suggestions come into place. This part was pure gold:

Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on October 12, 2023, 7:35 am

Even when not exactly useful, I still like to reward the good intent. One because they may give good advice later on, and two because they may add value to those who may need that advice, so it's good to encourage value-giving behavior from my point of view.

The context (and Chav's past history) made it clear to me that he was playing games instead of trying to add true value, yes (had I been a beginner, fine. But two years later? It was like telling grown ups that they aren't lacing up their shoes correctly, what are the chances. Also it was very unusual, Chav doesn't really pay attention to the way people are training). But one-upping disempowering behaviour is just one step toward self defence. It can bring results, sure. But true Eagles don't stop there: they show a better way, and that was what my answer was lacking. Also, it worked because Chav doesn't have a thin skin. Lucio's suggestion works regardless of his sensivity. Next time, I'll go with this one:

Chav: "Folks, let's be intelligent, train looking at the mirror"
Kavalier: Hey man, thanks for the advice, really, I appreciate you wanting to help us.
Just one thing, when you use the word "let's be intelligent" it seems like you're suggesting we're stupid, and that's not very cool to be honest

Or perhaps, combine both approaches:

Chav: "Folks, let's be intelligent, train looking at the mirror"
Kav: laughs, pats him twice on his biceps with the back of his hand, while looking at Chap. So here's a guy who enjoys staring at himself on the mirror

Chap: laughs, makes his contribution to the joke

Kav: Hey man, jokes aside, thanks for the advice, really, I appreciate you wanting to help us.
Just one thing, when you use the word "let's be intelligent" it seems like you're suggesting we're stupid, and that's not very cool to be honest

Now, the thing with the mirror, I disagree. What you say makes sense, but there's this and this and that.

One upping is still game. With this new version, I show I can play the game, but transcend the game. I've noticed enough red flags about Chav that I would not want him too close as a friend. Still that would have smoothened the interaction, and better contributed to a friendly interaction. It's someone I have to deal with day after say, after all.

So thanks again Lucio, and thanks to everyone that read here!

Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on October 13, 2023, 9:50 am

Rock on Kavalier!

Thank you for the updates, and yes, the "nicer after checking power moves / showing power" is probably the most common case.

Sometimes it can also be the best set-up for good alliances or even friendships (when the original power mover was not a totally "bent" character).

And you took the advice very "power mature": you applied it to your situation -ie.: he wasn't really trying to add value, so my take only partially applies-.
And you didn't think that he "just needed a chance to be good", which would be the naive approach (but instead realistically assessed that he may just not be a great person to be close with).

On a slightly off-topic note, some gyms can be great places to lean more advanced social skills, power dynamics, and the "game of status" among (wanna be) "alpha types".

Quote from John Freeman on October 13, 2023, 10:10 am

Hello Kavalier,

thanks for sharing this interesting case.

I agree with Lucio about the part needing to be addressed is "let's be intelligent".

In my opinion your reaction was a bit strong as I'm sure he felt shamed whereas I think he was more socially awkard than ill-intentioned. The evidence is that he back-tracked instead of escalating. Due to how he felt and as Lucio said I think he might hold off any future advice as maybe the interaction was value-taking for him (even if he started it, that's what he'll remember probably). So I would rebuild rapport next time if only with a smile or "thanks for the advice, you're right it's better looking in the mirror". Even if you already knew. To build him up again.

Also you are a customer so even if he looks higher power because of knowledge and appearance. I think you are higher power in this situation. He needs you more than you need him. You can complain to his boss but he cannot fire you. So I think you have more situational power than him there.

Also maybe you (unconsciously) felt threatened by his size (probably bigger) or his dominance was so high so you felt you had to go strong to rebalance. As a way to balance his attack. Hypothesis here.

Another alternative to the already great advice you received could be:

Chav: "Folks, let's be intelligent, train looking at the mirror"

Kav: "What do you mean?"

This lets him thread-expand on his value-adding advice. Then one could reframe:

Chav: "Folks, let's be intelligent, train looking at the mirror"

Kav: "What do you mean?"

Chav: so that you can look at the technique, guys

Kav: ah alright so you mean it's smarter to do so (reframe from dumb to better, you could use "more efficient", "better", etc. from absolute to relative). (Yeah I agree you're right). Thanks!

Here it's face saving as you allow himself to explain what he means while still keeping the option to address the "let's be intelligent". So you move from lose-win to win-win, very leader-like. So now that you reframed his statement to value-adding and built a more collaborative/power-protective frame (in parenthesis: optional) you can thank him for the advice as you removed the negative content of his statement with a reframe.

So in summary, I think with some verbal judo you (maybe) could have bent his words in a collaborative or value-adding frame which you led. So you take the leadership to a win-win exchange.

PS: Here I assumed the "gym teacher" works here. I could be wrong.

Quote from John Freeman on October 13, 2023, 10:18 am

I think Chav was too overvearing in his tone of voice and choice of words to tolerate. Chav is the usual wanna be tough guy, low warmth, does not interact much and meets greetings with coldness. Except, Chav recently opened a supplements store near the gym and suddenly became somewhat (emphasis on somewhat) friendly. The first time he approached me some time ago was to tell me about it.

Also, the advice was directed at two people who have been training at that place for quite some time and don't need much advice (The mirror thing in the end boils down to personal preference: for some people it's good for watching one's execution; for others, it may be distracting, and may make it harder to develop body awareness). All this time in the gym, and that was the first time Chav had advice to offer - no real advice, since there was nothing to really fix. So we don't need him. Chav has nothing to offer, and the gym is a social group I'm not investing in.

Yeah I understand that's why I think that if you fly higher (becoming the leader of the interaction) you overpower him with your mind. So you're mentally stronger than him even if he's physically stronger than you. That's powerful I think. Otherwise I totally agree with you as I can imagine he was inadequate. And even if he's not working there that could be the reason why you're higher power than him: he needs you more than you need him.

Thinking about it now, and having read your reply to Power Duck's sister's boyfriend thread, I believe there may have been another reason for Chav to play the teacher: before I joined him in the machine, Chap was talking to the new, attractive, female teacher. Female presence can indeed induce male to male aggression in some animals, after all

Yeah. Classic. He feels it's his territory and it's his woman. Yep animal behaviour.

Quote from Kavalier on October 13, 2023, 4:53 am
Update
Met Chap and Chav today again at the gym. Chap, who I didn't know before, greeted me warmly, and when I greeted Chav he was nicer than usual! It proves that yes, some people go around trying to test others' as targets for social climbing, and soften as soon as you show you're hard to hit. It also shows that it's a good idea to put an end to disrespecting behaviour when they're still small. You accept the tone now because it's small, tomorrow they do it again, people around start making jokes you don't like, and... There you have it. This is how you end up being the person who people joke about, and having difficulty getting others to respect you.

Reflecting on it, I think the key to why it worked was that I delivered the "mirror" line in jest and didn't thread-expand on the "let's be intelligent". This way, I addressed Chav's disempowering behaviour without being agressive back, so it prevented bad blood from developing. Also, it gave me and Chap a good laugh, which brought closer. In the end, perhaps addressing his last "these guys are crazy" power move, which I thought I was at fault for not answering, might have been counterproductive. The message had already been sent, and might have led to bad blood.

Thanks for the follow-up. Yeah so he's the kind of person who respects strength (only). So it's a feed-back that your intuition in the moment was the right one with this guy. Since you see some red flags in him I would consider him a probable manipulator/value-taker. And I think it was good you had your guard up.

I think you were right not to address the "these guys are crazy". Unnecessary escalation that would have gone nowhere compared with the symbolic value of the offense. You could have addressed it in a low investment way: by shaking your head while looking at your friend for instance.

Quote from Kavalier on October 13, 2023, 9:08 pm

Thank you, Lucio and John!

Thank you for the updates, and yes, the "nicer after checking power moves / showing power" is probably the most common case.

Sometimes it can also be the best set-up for good alliances or even friendships (when the original power mover was not a totally "bent" character).

Come to think of it, some of the friendships I developed in the past I made after checking some power moves (though I didn't understand them as such).

Also thanks for the "power mature"! This is something I also credit to PU. Before this, I tended to be more of the naive type you describe. I was raised to think that "perhaps I had misunderstood the situation", "perhaps the other person is having a bad day". Sure, perhaps that might be true - but this doesn't change the dynamics. The biggest value of the forum is that here we share with people who understand power dynamics and can help each other to balance the appropriate response. And this kind of invisible, small daily power moves are the hardest to check. Go too strong, even slightly too strong, and you look out of yourself. Let it pass, and you know you'll have to deal with it recurrently from now on.

About the gym, yeah! My experience also confirms that. It was the same when I practiced martial arts. Perhaps it's in physical activities, especially those closely associated with traditional attributes of masculinity, that we see more of this type of "naked" power dynamics. Perhaps there's value to frequent these environments just to practice!

In my opinion your reaction was a bit strong as I'm sure he felt shamed whereas I think he was more socially awkard than ill-intentioned. The evidence is that he back-tracked instead of escalating. Due to how he felt and as Lucio said I think he might hold off any future advice as maybe the interaction was value-taking for him (even if he started it, that's what he'll remember probably). So I would rebuild rapport next time if only with a smile or "thanks for the advice, you're right it's better looking in the mirror". Even if you already knew. To build him up again.

John, I think your proposed answers are rock solid! My impression is that mine wasn't strong, because I delivered it light hearted. It was the common type of one up joke everyone hears from time to time. Also, the fact that we didn't answer Chav's attempt at rephrasing his answer might seem rude when I describe the scene here, but it wasn't out of place. Chap was in the middle of some reps, I was watching (in my country the common "gym etiquette" is that, when you're sharing equipment, you watch the execution, help with the counting and motivation, assist when needed). If any thing, this also weighs against Chav: the expected behaviour for him was to wait until the reps were done before joining. The way he did it was the equivalent of barging in other people's conversation, not cool.

Also perhaps I might have contributed to the perception of a strong reaction because I ridicularized Chav a bit in this thread. I have a hard time respecting posturers.

I loved the thread-expansion + reframing combo you proposed, thank you! Very win-win! Also straight to my notes!