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She Breaks the Touch Barrier, Not Me!
Hello all,
I'm online dating and having success with the lower-value girls I'm not that interested in (less attractive, worse jobs) and less success with the girls I am (more attractive, better careers although quite possible career has little to do with it).
I wanted to get some input on a certain dynamic though. On some of these dates with the high-valued women, even when they don't go fantastic there seems to be decent engagement with some at least okay convo and a few laughs. Of note here, a few of them broke the touch barrier repeatedly, grabbing my arm mid-conversation. The last one did that about 4 times. (I have an extremely difficult time and essentially never break the touch barrier over polite dinner/drinks convo unless we get drunk). Meanwhile I never broke the touch barrier. When she's reaching out to grab my arm, I'm thinking naturally how great things are going. Then we went walking around some shops after and still I did not break the touch barrier. Still, decent time, she touched me a few times and laughed. But yet she was not interested in another date, even while I indicated I wanted another and asked her out, commented on her stunning looks (by text) so she knew I was interested.
After some limited time in Power University I may have an idea of what this all means, but this has happened a few times. Wondering if I can get some input on what we may think is happening here, whether the info above provides an obvious clear answer to that or not, or if somehow this may have been discussed before??
Thanks fellas, eager to learn more!
The woman grabbing your arm seems to come across as more dominant than you.
You also indicated interest but not lead things forward. She may not like the lack of "leading". Or feel awkward that she may need to "touch first". She may also think lack of chemistry.
I'm curious as to what you mean by polite dinner/drinks. Do you sit opposite her making it difficult to touch her?
When you mention "polite", I have the feeling that you're not leading the vibe & interaction towards the direction you want.
Maybe the root cause is that you are uncomfortable with touch. How does breaking the touch barrier happen when you drink more?
Also, one doesn't necessarily need to touch a lot as well. The overall momentum needs to go forward. By you or her. But some women (or a lot) won't or doesn't like to do it.
Hi Matthew,
First I'm in my 40's in case that might be relevant. Thanks for responding to my post, yes I think you may have nailed my deficiency here- lack of "leading" and her being more dominant. We had lots of fun texting prior (she liked my text game, they all like my text game but I did in skimming read something from Lucio about the problem with a different text game vs in person game and I definitely have this issue), she did appear to have at least mild fun and a few laughs and I thought I'd get the second date with the touching from her but you perhaps nailed how she just felt it was "off."
I do sit opposite them in restaurants often, or sometimes adjacent corners (in this case we were at a hightop having drinks and adjacent so she could reach out and touch me frequently). Should I always make sure its adjacent in future? The problem here is I don't like to touch them! Yes the "polite" conversation often means no second date, and most of these women have 1 drink on the date. Typical first date talk- what do you do, where you from. It's very difficult to take it to a fun vibe when there is little/no alcohol involved and sitting in a restaurant and they work the next day.
It's funny now that I think about it I don't even break the touch barrier when drinking most of the time. Rather my first touch is maybe 80% a first kiss. In other words, its as hard to touch their arm casually as it is to kiss them a first time LOL.  If touching is important perhaps I need a "touch script" (only way it might happen!). I would feel extremely awkward touching their hand or arm with little alcohol- is that what people are doing?? Is it important?
JP
They're gaming you, JP :).
And that might be a good thing as long as they're not doing because they feel in charge / higher power.
+1 to what Matthew said: I don't see touching or not touching as a big issue as long as you'd be comfortable with touching.
If you are comfortable, then not touching can seem higher value and leave women wondering a bit more.
If you are not, then I'd recommend you get comfortable with it and next time do initiate more touching on purpose -starting with a hug when you first meet your dates-.
So that might be one thing to work on: being comfortable with leadership and dominance -of which "touching" is just one aspect-.
The second one:
Quote from JP on December 9, 2021, 2:20 amBut yet she was not interested in another date, even while I indicated I wanted another and asked her out, commented on her stunning looks (by text) so she knew I was interested.
Way too much in my opinion.
Generally speaking, do not comment on her "stunning look". It's pedestalizing and it can easily self-frame you as lower value.
Also, it's not clear whether you did this or not, but you don't want to propose a second date during the first one unless she does so first. And even then, I'd leave it very general on "things we could do... Maybe and eventually".
This is a foundational aspect of dating power dynamics.
I'm now thinking to make one lesson on "foundations of power dynamics" for dating just to clear out these common issues.
Thanks for giving more details!
The problem here is I don't like to touch them!
Is there a deeper reason as to why you don't like to touch them?
She may also feel spurned because she reached out to touch you first without you returning the touch.
Depending on the situation of course.
Do you prefer to go slower?
Maybe you're in a more conservative culture as well?
If you like the girl to touch you first, a few possibilities:
- Put your palm out to help her get up when both of you are sitting down
(There was a good scene from Spread. Aston Kutcher did this) - "Let's go to the bar" and stick your hand out for her to take it
If you are leading all the way to intimacy, you can leave the touching to private settings.
If not, I believe it's important to break the touch barrier to signal comfort and interest to set up the next date.
Maybe you're better at verbals. (Or you prefer verbals)
You can make verbal the "main mode" and touching to be the side point.
For example,
- At the start of the date, hug or lead her with your hand (palm up) into the venue
- Walk out of the venue or cross the road (hand on back)
- Get her attention to something like
(touches her arm/shoulder) The menu is over here.
Let's sit over there by the window. - I like the tattoo on your arm (softly touches her arm)
- We should get a tattoo on our neck (soft neck touch)
When she's reaching out to grab my arm, I'm thinking naturally how great things are going. Then we went walking around some shops after and still I did not break the touch barrier. Still, decent time, she touched me a few times and laughed.
Was she on the more aggressive side in general?
If she grabs your arm strongly, you can crack a joke like
Her: (grabs your arm)
You: Woa, trying to restrain me? (light-heartedly)
I think there are definitely other ways of approaching this as well.
Posted at the same time as Lucio again :)
Yep compliments guys. Neither of you two are getting left alone with my sisters for one single minute. If your dates started it and drinks are being had I d say game on.
I used to make all those plays and a few more.
Since #metoo I think you re smart playing aloof. Although I would go with an 'accidental' touch at some point to make sure your not wasting your time.
And I hate to say but if I was single these days I d have cameras at home to prove it was consensual if required
Yeah Kevin, I don't know how JP gets women to game him so well.
Actually I meant you and Lucio. I m guessing JP is a good looking rooster plain and simple.
Aloof is a chapter in the playbook. Mix up, early rapport building then keeping the convo on them, dominance e.g. changing topic, cutting the date short, etc. and they LL try harder. I m more the comfort and kino king. Everyone finds their own style.
Fellas, I'm unsure what you mean by she's "gaming me"?
I don't know why I'm uncomfortable with "touching," it's just extremely difficult and always has been as I'm hyperconscious. I get extremely hyperconscious about following a script that they've seen a million times from every guy. For example, the last thing I would ever do is kiss a girl good night at the end of a first date. It just seems dreadful with the pressure and normally I find after one date we've had a nice time but not nice enough to kiss. However once that very first touch is made, magically everything becomes easy, escalation is not a huge problem.
I do like some of your ideas Matthew, but I generally don't date tattooed women LOL I wonder though, do these incidental touches somehow change the nature of the date? Some of these instances are just not realistic (we won't be going to the bar as we're seated at a table for example). Others sound great- I like the nudge to get attention for something. Perhaps I should think of 20 reasons why I can possibly touch them LOL Are you supposed to meet a woman for the first time and be touching her within 20/30 minutes? While you're sitting there eating dinner?! That seems impossible! LOL
Yes Lucio, I never suggest a second date on the first, always via text later.
In the case above, she was gorgeous but had a poor job, she was not aggressive. I thought the fact that she did not have a great job would be my concession to allow me such a gorgeous girl but alas, no. I asked her out again and she said "lets see how the week goes" and the conversation slowly died until she was just "hearting" my texts and I stopped. Technically I haven't even got the "nice guy" speech yet!
I think I really need to focus on the Power University and get some basics down- it's incredible how nuanced you fellas are.
JP
She's putting in effort to seduce you. That's why she touches you.
The issue seems that you make touching a milestone/goal/objective. So you put a lot of pressure on yourself to "break the touch barrier" like how you titled the thread.
Maybe you can think of it as not a barrier at all. Part and parcel of the normal interaction between a man and a woman on a date who like each other.
You are physically attracted to the woman you go on dates with. So you probably would enjoy touching her. (Unless it's a conservative culture.)
So touching is part and parcel of enjoying the date and deepening your bond with the woman. Like talking and crafting the whole date experience (choosing the restaurant, how you talk to the waiter, how you dress, etc).
So the above scenarios I suggested are some ways where touching can be done as part and parcel of building the bond with the woman. Making it "incidental" is to make it seem natural.
Yeah, no need for the tattoo examples :). You can still do that even if you and the girl have no tattoos. It's a good topic to break the image of having to be "nice" and "good". So to relax and talk more freely.
But do what you like :). After all, it's how you want to bond with the woman.
You can craft some scenarios where touching becomes part of the date experience. Touching helps to bond. Or helps one feel more comfortable with touch as well.
If face-to-face is not helping you, you could try sitting adjacent like you suggested.
As for resparking the interest with the current woman, it can be tough since it went downhill. But you can give her a call after a while. Or drop it if you prefer.
