Former Community – We Moved

🆕 Coached community here, for posts & feedback public community here.

ForumPublic Forum: Social LifeTeaching my son (8) to handle man …

Please or Register to create posts and topics.

Teaching my son (8) to handle manipulative class mate

#1 · December 15, 2023, 3:31 pm

Hi! My son and most of his class mates are troubled by a manipulative boy. Lets call him Jo. Some examples: Jo walks by and says:
"You suck at ice hockey/football/maths/whatever"
"Auch! You bumped into me, you idiot" (not true)
To the girls: "You are ugly."

At ice hockey practice, he pushes some (not all) out of the bench. Out of the circle, when they are doing cheers.

A few boys in the class have girlfriends. Jo is bullying them to break up. Not that the relationships are important to the boys, but Jo is succeeding in manipulation.
He also has power on some kids with attitude problem, and manipulate them to attack/hit/kick others.

A typical thing of Jo to do is to walk over to my son. My son is talking with at good friend. My son and friend are standing in the stairs, lifting the toes as they talk and have a good time. Jo then puts his finger under my sons foot and screams: "Auch! You injured me!"

My son has spent some time alone with this kid in the spare time. It seems that it doesn't help. As Lucio writes, I think he should be held on a arms length. But I would really like some more suggestions. How I can teach my son to handle this classmate and teammate?

Kavalier and Power Duck have reacted to this post.

#2 · December 15, 2023, 5:42 pm

Hello Oddbjorn,

As a pediatrician, I think this must be dealt at the teacher level. At least that's what we do in Switzerland. So it's not your son's responsibility to handle that. It's up to the teacher to take the boy aside and educate him (since the parents are failing at that). If that does not work, then there are other possibilities: (compassionate) mediation (depend if this "technology" is available where you live), escalation: school will summon the child's parents if there are no progress.

It's a school problem it's the school's responsibility to deal with it. It's not your problem, it's theirs (and the boy's parents). That's how we deal with it in my country.

On your side: I would abstain from putting your son in contact with this boy in his spare time.

Lucio Buffalmano, Jack and Power Duck have reacted to this post.

#3 · December 15, 2023, 10:37 pm

From my experience in education, it's how TPM describes it: bullies pick on those who are easy to prey on, different, and lacking in social skills. Especially social skills related to power such as low status in the class, unpopular or disliked, meek, etc. But this boy you describe follows a different pattern, he's more of a troublemaker and loose cannon than a bully who is targeting anyone specific and he is on his own. The solutions should be more on his end because it seems to me he is causing more troubles to himself than to others.

Lucio Buffalmano, Jack and 3 other users have reacted to this post.

#4 · December 15, 2023, 10:56 pm

Quote from Kavalier on December 15, 2023, 10:56 pm
Hello, Oddbjorn
This is tricky indeed. Responding to bullying in primary school can get ugly if your son is not prepared to handle escalation. But while I agree with John that it's a responsability of the school board to handle the situation, the boy's and the board's actions are beyond your control. By all means, contact the school board and follow John's suggestions.
Where I disagree with John: I think it's indeed your problem, in the sense that this is your responsability. Your son is being affected by the boy's behaviour. We cannot control what happens around us, we cannot always prevent bad things from happening, but you can (and this is an important) prepare your son to be self-sufficient and handle his own challenges.
What I would do in your situation:
Teach you son/help him make more friends. If he has a group of tight-knit friends around him, it'll make it harder for bullies to target them.
Have your son exercise and learn self-defence. Children don't hesitate to use violence against others in order to dominate them, so your son must be prepared to meet some physical challenge. Also, respect and status among children often overlaps with physical strength and fitness. If your son looks like someone who's able to give bullies a hard time, they'll leave him alone. Most important is that your son is not afraid of getting beaten in case it happens. Martial arts can get him become used to some pain in a controled environment
Teach him never to start a fight, and never answer verbal agression with violence
But teach him how to recognize threats and to not allow anyone that is not a friend in his close personal space. The first module of this course (entirely free) is worth more than any self-defence advice you might ever learn
Talk to your son about manipulation, do's and don't's, as you learn in PU. If he can recognize it at a young age, as he already seems to be able to do, then he'll be able to tell the good apples from the bad. You are right when you say that you and your kid should keep the boy at arm's length
Teach him how to address power moves
Most of all, the stuff you learn in PU can and should be taught to children over time. Let your kid grow becoming power aware.
Of course, you must strike a balance that only you, as his father, can sense. Teach him slowly, over time, so you don't make him paranoid.
One example of how you might teach your son to
Jo: Auch! You injured me!
Bjørnson: not true. It's you who put your finger there [he can also recruit his friend – let's call him Per – and the people aroun, if any]. Did you see that, Per/guys, Jo put his finger under my foot and is pretending that I stepped on it
Per: yep, saw that, he really did it
Your son may even build Jo back and show him that he's friendly
Bjørnson: you're a cool guy, Jo, but why do you do that? That's not cool behaviour
My idea here is that your kid:
Check Jo's behaviour
Call attention to what he's doing, so he has witness on his side. This will also put some peer pressure agains Jo
Recruit possible allies
Show Jo that your son is a friend. But he'll not be an easy target, if any
Of course, feel free do adapt the language to what's appropriate for an 8 years old to talk, I don't know how to talk like a child, so the examples might look contrived :D
Edit: just realized Tina posted before me, +1 to her post, I couldn't agree more.

Hello, Oddbjorn

This is tricky indeed. Responding to bullying in primary school can get ugly if your son is not prepared to handle escalation. But while I agree with John that it's a responsability of the school board to handle the situation, the boy's and the board's actions are beyond your control. By all means, contact the school board and follow John's suggestions.

Where I disagree with John: I think it's indeed your problem, in the sense that this is your responsability. Your son is being affected by the boy's behaviour. We cannot control what happens around us, we cannot always prevent bad things from happening, but you can (and this is an important) prepare your son to be self-sufficient and handle his own challenges.

What I would do in your situation:

Teach you son/help him make more friends. If he has a group of tight-knit friends around him, it'll make it harder for bullies to target them.
Have your son exercise and learn self-defence. Children don't hesitate to use violence against others in order to dominate them, so your son must be prepared to meet some physical challenge. Also, respect and status among children often overlaps with physical strength and fitness. If your son looks like someone who's able to give bullies a hard time, they'll leave him alone. Most important is that your son is not afraid of getting beaten in case it happens. Martial arts can get him become used to some pain in a controled environment
1. Teach him never to start a fight, and never answer verbal agression with violence
2. But teach him how to recognize threats and to not allow anyone that is not a friend in his close personal space. The first module of this course (entirely free) is worth more than any self-defence advice you might ever learn
Talk to your son about manipulation, do's and don't's, as you learn in PU. If he can recognize it at a young age, as he already seems to be able to do, then he'll be able to tell the good apples from the bad. You are right when you say that you and your kid should keep the boy at arm's length
Teach him how to address power moves

Most of all, the stuff you learn in PU can and should be taught to children over time. Let your kid grow becoming power aware.

Of course, you must strike a balance that only you, as his father, can sense. Teach him slowly, over time, so you don't make him paranoid.

One example of how you might teach your son to

Jo: Auch! You injured me!
Bjørnson: not true. It's you who put your finger there [he can also recruit his friend – let's call him Per – and the people aroun, if any]. Did you see that, Per/guys, Jo put his finger under my foot and is pretending that I stepped on it
Per: yep, saw that, he really did it

Your son may even build Jo back and show him that he's friendly

Bjørnson: you're a cool guy, Jo, but why do you do that? That's not cool behaviour

My idea here is that your kid:

Check Jo's behaviour
Call attention to what he's doing, so he has witness on his side. This will also put some peer pressure agains Jo
Recruit possible allies
Show Jo that your son is a friend. But he'll not be an easy target, if any

Of course, feel free do adapt the language to what's appropriate for an 8 years old to talk, I don't know how to talk like a child, so the examples might look contrived :D

Edit: just realized Tina posted before me, +1 to her post, I couldn't agree more.

Lucio Buffalmano, Power Duck and 2 other users have reacted to this post.

#5 · December 16, 2023, 5:31 am

Quote from John Freeman on December 16, 2023, 5:31 am
Yeah Kavalier, it’s an advice I considered given and yes in part it’s true. The only issue is that the boy is 8. Yes you can teach him a little. But it’s a lot of responsibility to put on an 8 year olds boy in my opinion. So I would not put too much responsibility on him.
So yes of course it’s good to teach him power-awareness and defense against manipulation. But I think at his age it’s better to tell adults when there’s a problem.
Same with physical self-defense: yes if he wants to. Everyone has different personality. It’s not good to send a child to judo practice if he hates it. So to be balanced with his own tastes. And then what? Tell him not to use these skills? Why not but one can see that at 8 yo tricky. Not sure it’s the best solution. It’s a hobby he could consider having anyway but solving this issue I’m not convinced.
So yes you can give him advice on how to react of course but I would be careful to think where lies the responsibilities. My advice is to talk to the school and see what they say. I would recommend even to ask them about what you want to teach him: start a dialog.
On what to teach him it’s tricky. Personally I think it’s really on a case by case basis. I would ask him how school went and how it went with this boy. Ask him what he said and the other boy said. Then suggest things if he wants. Some children are not interested in learning that stuff from my experience working with parents who had issues like this. Sometimes I give the advice to teach the kid how to react when I see that the child is probably setting himself as a victim. Sometimes parents told me: “he’s not interested/does not want”. So the ideal case is that if it comes from the child or asking permission “do you want to know what I think? Or what I think would be good for you?”
Of course it’s Oddbjorn’s problem. The message is that oftentimes parents try to solve this on their own and it’s not the right way to solve it. I’ve had some experience working this and the way it was solved the easier was when mediation from school was used and/or both parents were involved. It’s a problem that concerns: Oddbjorn, his son, the boy, the school, the teacher/hockey coach, the boy’s parents. So it’s not a problem to be solved on your own. From my experience it’s way less effective. Sometimes it works but when it works it’s when the parents solved it “on their own” by involving the troubled child’s parents. So these kind of issues are a team sports.
These are children, this is an educative problem on the other boy’s side. If you inquire in his family it will probably be a socially challenged family. This is not an adult using manipulation to have some secondary gain. It’s probably a child lacking boundaries at home and some love. And that’s where the school comes in to solve the problem. (Of course there is a secondary gain : feeling powerful and attention but you see my point).
Caveat: it all depends how the system is set up. Hence the caveat about my country. If no one is listening/can help and the other family is not listening then it shifts the responsibility on you and your boy. Depends a lot on your context and the resources available.
As I said this is my experience working as a pediatrician in Switzerland.

Yeah Kavalier, it’s an advice I considered given and yes in part it’s true. The only issue is that the boy is 8. Yes you can teach him a little. But it’s a lot of responsibility to put on an 8 year olds boy in my opinion. So I would not put too much responsibility on him.

So yes of course it’s good to teach him power-awareness and defense against manipulation. But I think at his age it’s better to tell adults when there’s a problem.

Same with physical self-defense: yes if he wants to. Everyone has different personality. It’s not good to send a child to judo practice if he hates it. So to be balanced with his own tastes. And then what? Tell him not to use these skills? Why not but one can see that at 8 yo tricky. Not sure it’s the best solution. It’s a hobby he could consider having anyway but solving this issue I’m not convinced.

So yes you can give him advice on how to react of course but I would be careful to think where lies the responsibilities. My advice is to talk to the school and see what they say. I would recommend even to ask them about what you want to teach him: start a dialog.

On what to teach him it’s tricky. Personally I think it’s really on a case by case basis. I would ask him how school went and how it went with this boy. Ask him what he said and the other boy said. Then suggest things if he wants. Some children are not interested in learning that stuff from my experience working with parents who had issues like this. Sometimes I give the advice to teach the kid how to react when I see that the child is probably setting himself as a victim. Sometimes parents told me: “he’s not interested/does not want”. So the ideal case is that if it comes from the child or asking permission “do you want to know what I think? Or what I think would be good for you?”

Of course it’s Oddbjorn’s problem. The message is that oftentimes parents try to solve this on their own and it’s not the right way to solve it. I’ve had some experience working this and the way it was solved the easier was when mediation from school was used and/or both parents were involved. It’s a problem that concerns: Oddbjorn, his son, the boy, the school, the teacher/hockey coach, the boy’s parents. So it’s not a problem to be solved on your own. From my experience it’s way less effective. Sometimes it works but when it works it’s when the parents solved it “on their own” by involving the troubled child’s parents. So these kind of issues are a team sports.

These are children, this is an educative problem on the other boy’s side. If you inquire in his family it will probably be a socially challenged family. This is not an adult using manipulation to have some secondary gain. It’s probably a child lacking boundaries at home and some love. And that’s where the school comes in to solve the problem. (Of course there is a secondary gain : feeling powerful and attention but you see my point).

Caveat: it all depends how the system is set up. Hence the caveat about my country. If no one is listening/can help and the other family is not listening then it shifts the responsibility on you and your boy. Depends a lot on your context and the resources available.

As I said this is my experience working as a pediatrician in Switzerland.

Lucio Buffalmano and Oddbjorn have reacted to this post.

#6 · December 16, 2023, 5:39 pm

Some great replies already.

Just some random thoughts:

I'd make sure to avoid the "worried parent" attitude first of all (not saying you are!). Overly-worried parenting may stifle growth opportunities in my wholly ignorant opinion when it comes to pedagogy :)
Turn it into an opportunity for advanced social skills/power dynamics learning: every time he comes back from school, you talk about strategies (of course, the more you also know yourself, the better you can teach/help). Which in turn:
It's good experience for him (and for you!), and then...
Once he's a teen/20-something share PU with him, and he'll be flying :)

Kavalier and Oddbjorn have reacted to this post.

Community, new content and Confidence University now available here.

#7 · December 16, 2023, 7:52 pm

Quote from Kavalier on December 16, 2023, 7:52 pm

Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on December 16, 2023, 5:39 pm
Some great replies already.
Just some random thoughts:
I'd make sure to avoid the "worried parent" attitude first of all (not saying you are!). Overly-worried parenting may stifle growth opportunities in my wholly ignorant opinion when it comes to pedagogy 🙂
Turn it into an opportunity for advanced social skills/power dynamics learning: every time he comes back from school, you talk about strategies (of course, the more you also know yourself, the better you can teach/help). Which in turn:
It's good experience for him (and for you!), and then...
Once he's a teen/20-something share PU with him, and he'll be flying 🙂
Just to expand in Lucio's idea, I think this could be something as simple as:
Asking your son how his day in school was
If he shares something that is bothering him, you share a similar story that happened to you. Share how you reacted then back in your day, and how you would have done differently if you knew the stuff you do today
As you talk, you give him tips on how to handle the challenges he faces. Really basic stuff that is in PU: saying "no", enforcing boundaries, going meta, making friends
It's more of a bonding time with your son, in which you both learn something while sharing personal stuff. This has the benefit of bringing you two growing closer to each other, and help you to dose his learning ove the years, as he grows up. If you teach him only when he opens up, you also respect your son's space and this prevents you from becoming a helicopter parent, which is a risk we are always at.
John, I'm not disagreeing with you here. By all means, I also think that talking to the school board is a necessary step. Yes, it's Jo's family and the school's responsabilty to solve Jo's problem, but let's face it: Jo's behaviour may or may not change, and if changes, it'll not change from night to day. What do we do if we talk to the school board and they do nothing?
Also, notice that I'm not talking about teaching advanced power dynamics nor forcing a kid to fight in UFC. An 8 year old boy is old enough to start learning both self-defence and standing up for himself.

Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on December 16, 2023, 5:39 pm
Some great replies already.
Just some random thoughts:
I'd make sure to avoid the "worried parent" attitude first of all (not saying you are!). Overly-worried parenting may stifle growth opportunities in my wholly ignorant opinion when it comes to pedagogy 🙂
Turn it into an opportunity for advanced social skills/power dynamics learning: every time he comes back from school, you talk about strategies (of course, the more you also know yourself, the better you can teach/help). Which in turn:
It's good experience for him (and for you!), and then...
Once he's a teen/20-something share PU with him, and he'll be flying 🙂

Just to expand in Lucio's idea, I think this could be something as simple as:

Asking your son how his day in school was
If he shares something that is bothering him, you share a similar story that happened to you. Share how you reacted then back in your day, and how you would have done differently if you knew the stuff you do today
As you talk, you give him tips on how to handle the challenges he faces. Really basic stuff that is in PU: saying "no", enforcing boundaries, going meta, making friends

It's more of a bonding time with your son, in which you both learn something while sharing personal stuff. This has the benefit of bringing you two growing closer to each other, and help you to dose his learning ove the years, as he grows up. If you teach him only when he opens up, you also respect your son's space and this prevents you from becoming a helicopter parent, which is a risk we are always at.

John, I'm not disagreeing with you here. By all means, I also think that talking to the school board is a necessary step. Yes, it's Jo's family and the school's responsabilty to solve Jo's problem, but let's face it: Jo's behaviour may or may not change, and if changes, it'll not change from night to day. What do we do if we talk to the school board and they do nothing?

Also, notice that I'm not talking about teaching advanced power dynamics nor forcing a kid to fight in UFC. An 8 year old boy is old enough to start learning both self-defence and standing up for himself.

John Freeman and Oddbjorn have reacted to this post.

#8 · December 16, 2023, 9:36 pm

Quote from John Freeman on December 16, 2023, 9:36 pm
John, I'm not disagreeing with you here. By all means, I also think that talking to the school board is a necessary step. Yes, it's Jo's family and the school's responsabilty to solve Jo's problem, but let's face it: Jo's behaviour may or may not change, and if changes, it'll not change from night to day. What do we do if we talk to the school board and they do nothing?
Yeah I think we agree and I thank you for your note. I want to be clear: I think your advice is sound, helpful and well-thought out. My point is that I think it's good that every person involved take their responsibility as well:
Oddbjorn: to teach his son how to defend himself (verbally/physically)
Oddbjorn's son: to learn how to defend himself
The school/teacher: to make sure kids are safe in school
The boy: to take responsibility for his harmful behaviour and modifying it accordingly
The boy's parents: to teach their kids other more pro-social behaviours
My concern is that focussing too much on 1 and 2, we could forget the responsibilities of 3-5.
When children lend their children's care to another adult, they expect them to make sure he's safe. These adults in this situation is the school. The parents have the right to demand that their child is safe at school (and treated with respect). So I remind this fact to the parents in these cases. They agree in my experience.
Then I tell the child that no one has the right to hurt him. That if someone hurts him he has to tell an adult (the person responsible for his safety): teacher, parent, etc.
Then I tell the parents to contact the school/teacher and ask them what they observed/noticed and ask if there is a mediator. If not, then it's up to the direction/teacher to act (however they like: summoning the parents, etc.). It's their responsibility. School is mandatory but children's safety is protected by law as well.
The modern technique of mediation is really smart and I think probably you guys will appreciate the power dynamics.
The mediator summon the troubling child and (if it's a bullying case, that is chronic target harassment) the mediator says to the bully:
Mediator: you know we noticed that [bullied child] is not feeling well those days, do you have any ideas how we could help him?
The goal is for the bully to feel empathy for the bullied AND come up with solutions. It's totally manipulative but it's brilliant. It usually takes 1-2 sessions max for the bullying to end. This "technology" is quite new to me, so I don't know where else it's available. It probably comes from English speaking countries as it's often the case. Personally, I've been quite impressed with its effectiveness.
In the case of a troubled child, that is a child who's being agitated and being aggressive with everyone, these are more complex cases but the steps above still apply in most cases. Every case is different. But the person involved are always the same: aggressed, aggressor, aggressed's parents, aggressor's parents, school/teacher. Of course there are also class dynamics but let's not get into that.
So yes, doing all of this: learn self-defence, teach self-defence, contact the school. The thing that is important for me is to leave everyone's their own responsibility and not shoulder the whole problem on the aggressed's side.
Also some children are reserved and sensitive by nature. They have the right to be like that without being attacked. So my message about not teaching him forcibly a martial art was in this direction. To respect the child's nature as well. So many factors to take into account. That's why meeting with the school is helpful. They can say what they observed in both children's behaviours. So the bullied's child parents understand better the root cause: does their child want to be liked? Is afraid of conflict? Thinks he has to be nice to everyone? Behaves in a way that is setting himself as a target? Does the teacher noticed but let it go because the teacher himself is afraid of parents/conflicts? etc. So the root cause can be many different things. And it's important to address the root cause in as many participants as possible in my opinion. Maybe the agitated child is going through a divorce period, etc.
Note: here I use "bullied" for brevity sake as this does not seem the classical case of bullying but rather the more complex one I talked about above.

John, I'm not disagreeing with you here. By all means, I also think that talking to the school board is a necessary step. Yes, it's Jo's family and the school's responsabilty to solve Jo's problem, but let's face it: Jo's behaviour may or may not change, and if changes, it'll not change from night to day. What do we do if we talk to the school board and they do nothing?

Yeah I think we agree and I thank you for your note. I want to be clear: I think your advice is sound, helpful and well-thought out. My point is that I think it's good that every person involved take their responsibility as well:

Oddbjorn: to teach his son how to defend himself (verbally/physically)
Oddbjorn's son: to learn how to defend himself
The school/teacher: to make sure kids are safe in school
The boy: to take responsibility for his harmful behaviour and modifying it accordingly
The boy's parents: to teach their kids other more pro-social behaviours

My concern is that focussing too much on 1 and 2, we could forget the responsibilities of 3-5.

When children lend their children's care to another adult, they expect them to make sure he's safe. These adults in this situation is the school. The parents have the right to demand that their child is safe at school (and treated with respect). So I remind this fact to the parents in these cases. They agree in my experience.

Then I tell the child that no one has the right to hurt him. That if someone hurts him he has to tell an adult (the person responsible for his safety): teacher, parent, etc.

Then I tell the parents to contact the school/teacher and ask them what they observed/noticed and ask if there is a mediator. If not, then it's up to the direction/teacher to act (however they like: summoning the parents, etc.). It's their responsibility. School is mandatory but children's safety is protected by law as well.

The modern technique of mediation is really smart and I think probably you guys will appreciate the power dynamics.

The mediator summon the troubling child and (if it's a bullying case, that is chronic target harassment) the mediator says to the bully:

Mediator: you know we noticed that [bullied child] is not feeling well those days, do you have any ideas how we could help him?

The goal is for the bully to feel empathy for the bullied AND come up with solutions. It's totally manipulative but it's brilliant. It usually takes 1-2 sessions max for the bullying to end. This "technology" is quite new to me, so I don't know where else it's available. It probably comes from English speaking countries as it's often the case. Personally, I've been quite impressed with its effectiveness.

In the case of a troubled child, that is a child who's being agitated and being aggressive with everyone, these are more complex cases but the steps above still apply in most cases. Every case is different. But the person involved are always the same: aggressed, aggressor, aggressed's parents, aggressor's parents, school/teacher. Of course there are also class dynamics but let's not get into that.

So yes, doing all of this: learn self-defence, teach self-defence, contact the school. The thing that is important for me is to leave everyone's their own responsibility and not shoulder the whole problem on the aggressed's side.

Also some children are reserved and sensitive by nature. They have the right to be like that without being attacked. So my message about not teaching him forcibly a martial art was in this direction. To respect the child's nature as well. So many factors to take into account. That's why meeting with the school is helpful. They can say what they observed in both children's behaviours. So the bullied's child parents understand better the root cause: does their child want to be liked? Is afraid of conflict? Thinks he has to be nice to everyone? Behaves in a way that is setting himself as a target? Does the teacher noticed but let it go because the teacher himself is afraid of parents/conflicts? etc. So the root cause can be many different things. And it's important to address the root cause in as many participants as possible in my opinion. Maybe the agitated child is going through a divorce period, etc.

Note: here I use "bullied" for brevity sake as this does not seem the classical case of bullying but rather the more complex one I talked about above.

Kavalier and Oddbjorn have reacted to this post.

#9 · December 16, 2023, 9:37 pm

Quote from Oddbjorn on December 16, 2023, 9:37 pm
[Edit: I see that I pushed the Submit/publish button some seconds after you John. I will read you newest input tomorrow. Anyway, this is my answer before I read your last post:]
I really appreciate all the suggestions and debate! Looking forward to implementing the feedback!
Question if I am overly worried: Don’t worry - I have 3 sons.
I agree that the solution should be on Jo’s side. However, I think my 8 year old, and almost any 8 year old in the world will meet someone like Jo sooner or later. And learning how to handle would be good - especially for my 8 year old, which is in the fight right *now*.
John: To give you some more background information: Jo has already been on the teachers list for 2 years. But the attitude has become worse, and/or twisted to a more refined “terrorism”. And there are 4 other problemkids in the class. The teacher has limited resources, and is focusing more on the violent kids. That said: There is much more violence and problems at school, compared to some years ago (according to statistics). Also, remember: Many kids are kids of lockdown and screen time, many of them are underdeveloped socially. The class feels like a football match, where the referee has lost control. Waiting longer for teachers or others to solve it feels naively - the system is flooding.
I know his parents fairly well. I’ve been talking a bit with them about the problems, without any improvement. They are well educated, have a good income - and they have extremely high expectations on their only child. Once when Jo and my son went bouldering a year ago, Jo's parents were watching him the whole time - commenting which climbing grip to grab (I was very surprised, because the walls were low, and a perfect place for kids to enjoy without parental surveillance and stalking). I’ve seen him in action at home - he has gained large control on the house rules (even if his parents seem strong from the outside). I struggle to pinpoint Jo’s inner conflicts - but I feel that he has a massive desire to be the best at everything, and wants to damage anybody that has skills or status of any kind (reading, sports, socially).
Kavalier: I really like your ideas. I will follow your advice. Appreciate it a lot! (even if this sentence and paragraph is short)

[Edit: I see that I pushed the Submit/publish button some seconds after you John. I will read you newest input tomorrow. Anyway, this is my answer before I read your last post:]

I really appreciate all the suggestions and debate! Looking forward to implementing the feedback!

Question if I am overly worried: Don’t worry - I have 3 sons.

I agree that the solution should be on Jo’s side. However, I think my 8 year old, and almost any 8 year old in the world will meet someone like Jo sooner or later. And learning how to handle would be good - especially for my 8 year old, which is in the fight right *now*.

John: To give you some more background information: Jo has already been on the teachers list for 2 years. But the attitude has become worse, and/or twisted to a more refined “terrorism”. And there are 4 other problemkids in the class. The teacher has limited resources, and is focusing more on the violent kids. That said: There is much more violence and problems at school, compared to some years ago (according to statistics). Also, remember: Many kids are kids of lockdown and screen time, many of them are underdeveloped socially. The class feels like a football match, where the referee has lost control. Waiting longer for teachers or others to solve it feels naively - the system is flooding.

I know his parents fairly well. I’ve been talking a bit with them about the problems, without any improvement. They are well educated, have a good income - and they have extremely high expectations on their only child. Once when Jo and my son went bouldering a year ago, Jo's parents were watching him the whole time - commenting which climbing grip to grab (I was very surprised, because the walls were low, and a perfect place for kids to enjoy without parental surveillance and stalking). I’ve seen him in action at home - he has gained large control on the house rules (even if his parents seem strong from the outside). I struggle to pinpoint Jo’s inner conflicts - but I feel that he has a massive desire to be the best at everything, and wants to damage anybody that has skills or status of any kind (reading, sports, socially).

Kavalier: I really like your ideas. I will follow your advice. Appreciate it a lot! (even if this sentence and paragraph is short)

Lucio Buffalmano, John Freeman and 2 other users have reacted to this post.

#10 · December 16, 2023, 9:48 pm

Quote from John Freeman on December 16, 2023, 9:48 pm
John: To give you some more background information: Jo has already been on the teachers list for 2 years. But the attitude has become worse, and/or twisted to a more refined “terrorism”. And there are 4 other problemkids in the class. The teacher has limited resources, and is focusing more on the violent kids. That said: There is much more violence and problems at school, compared to some years ago (according to statistics). Also, remember: Many kids are kids of lockdown and screen time, many of them are underdeveloped socially. The class feels like a football match, where the referee has lost control. Waiting longer for teachers or others to solve it feels naively - the system is flooding.
I know his parents fairly well. I’ve been talking a bit with them about the problems, without any improvement. They are well educated, have a good income - and they have extremely high expectations on their only child. Once when Jo and my son went bouldering a year ago, Jo's parents were watching him the whole time - commenting which climbing grip to grab (I was very surprised, because the walls were low, and a perfect place for kids to enjoy without parental surveillance and stalking). I’ve seen him in action at home - he has gained large control on the house rules (even if his parents seem strong from the outside). I struggle to pinpoint Jo’s inner conflicts - but I feel that he has a massive desire to be the best at everything, and wants to damage anybody that has skills or status of any kind (reading, sports, socially).
Yeah that's what I meant by "depending on the resources". So if there are few/no resources, it's up to you of course. And that's also what I meant when meeting the parents on one's own: it only works in few selected cases where the bully's parents have good intentions but were unaware it went sideways along the way. When they are actually grateful for the wake up call because they want to be good parents (not these people of course).
Here, the child obviously lacks boundaries and seems to be loved only when he performs or dominates other children. So they basically reinforce his aggressive behaviour. They're not going to change (maybe manipulators themselves, I don't know a hypothesis).
So yeah, if the school is. incompetent it's up to you and your son to act of course. Then definitely: verbal and physical defence and avoidance of the other child in spare time is the way to go.

John: To give you some more background information: Jo has already been on the teachers list for 2 years. But the attitude has become worse, and/or twisted to a more refined “terrorism”. And there are 4 other problemkids in the class. The teacher has limited resources, and is focusing more on the violent kids. That said: There is much more violence and problems at school, compared to some years ago (according to statistics). Also, remember: Many kids are kids of lockdown and screen time, many of them are underdeveloped socially. The class feels like a football match, where the referee has lost control. Waiting longer for teachers or others to solve it feels naively - the system is flooding.
I know his parents fairly well. I’ve been talking a bit with them about the problems, without any improvement. They are well educated, have a good income - and they have extremely high expectations on their only child. Once when Jo and my son went bouldering a year ago, Jo's parents were watching him the whole time - commenting which climbing grip to grab (I was very surprised, because the walls were low, and a perfect place for kids to enjoy without parental surveillance and stalking). I’ve seen him in action at home - he has gained large control on the house rules (even if his parents seem strong from the outside). I struggle to pinpoint Jo’s inner conflicts - but I feel that he has a massive desire to be the best at everything, and wants to damage anybody that has skills or status of any kind (reading, sports, socially).

Yeah that's what I meant by "depending on the resources". So if there are few/no resources, it's up to you of course. And that's also what I meant when meeting the parents on one's own: it only works in few selected cases where the bully's parents have good intentions but were unaware it went sideways along the way. When they are actually grateful for the wake up call because they want to be good parents (not these people of course).

Here, the child obviously lacks boundaries and seems to be loved only when he performs or dominates other children. So they basically reinforce his aggressive behaviour. They're not going to change (maybe manipulators themselves, I don't know a hypothesis).

So yeah, if the school is. incompetent it's up to you and your son to act of course. Then definitely: verbal and physical defence and avoidance of the other child in spare time is the way to go.

Lucio Buffalmano and Kavalier have reacted to this post.