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”The selfish gene” argument

#1 · October 28, 2020, 3:12 am

Hello Lucio, as I mentioned in previous questions, remarkable website, and I'm still have so much to learn!

However, there is some difficulty for me to understand why people behave against the selfish gene, and yes, I know it's a rule of thumb, but how and why people can be attracted to things that are so extremely against undoubtable social norms when they know how bad this is for their power and soical status, like involving in kinky/sexual fetish behaviors, dating dangerous man, or even LGBT in past years, or even to activities that literally hurts them or against their survivor, like self cutting, suicide, and stuff like that.

#2 · October 28, 2020, 10:40 pm

Hey man, good to see you, been a while!

Yeah, look, if you can answer those questions, then someone will soon offer you a professorship somewhere to teach it :).
Many of those questions are still open and debated.

Some more include:

Why do some people have zero interest in sex, or even find it gross?
Why do some people leave no children, even when they can?
Why do some women don't even want or like children?
Why do soldiers die for their country?

My point of view is the one you already mentioned:

Evolution moves in the general direction of what's good for the survival and reproduction of the individual.

But it is far from the perfect "invisible hand" that some people think it is.
As a matter of fact, it's quite random, imperfect, and sometimes can even move in directions that are bad for the species, before it can eventually get corrected.

And it's gotten even more imperfect recently, when human progress leaves evolution in the dust, changing the environment 10.000 faster than evolution could ever adapt.

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#3 · October 31, 2020, 2:04 pm

Evolution moves in the general direction of what's good for the survival and reproduction of the individual.
But it is far from the perfect "invisible hand" that some people think it is.
As a matter of fact, it's quite random, imperfect, and sometimes can even move in directions that are bad for the species, before it can eventually get corrected.

I like this idea. Never encountered it before.

Otherwise:

And it's gotten even more imperfect recently, when human progress leaves evolution in the dust, changing the environment 10.000 faster than evolution could ever adapt.

I don't agree but this is more of a philosophical conversation. I think culture IS evolution. Life = Evolution. Without Life there is no Evolution and without Evolution there is no Life. They are one and the same. At least that is my understanding so far. So any manifestation from Life is part of it even though it does not look like it. And I agree it looks like 2 separate processes. We are Evolution. Whatever we do is part of the natural selection process that started 2 billion years ago. However our understanding of this process is quite limited so far I believe.

#4 · October 31, 2020, 3:00 pm

Yeah, good topic for a discussion in front of a wine or drink, too :).

I agree with you that we could define evolution in larger terms, also including culture.

But then we need to disentangle evolution with the usual meaning that people assign to it, such as "adapting to the environment to be more effective living organisms", which is the definition I was also using.
In that sense, when the environment changes quickly, many human behaviors, emotions, and adaptations are not environment-tailored anymore.

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#5 · November 14, 2020, 11:36 pm

Quote from TheDucas on November 14, 2020, 11:36 pm
Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on October 31, 2020, 3:00 pm
Yeah, good topic for a discussion in front of a wine or drink, too :).
I agree with you that we could define evolution in larger terms, also including culture.
But then we need to disentangle evolution with the usual meaning that people assign to it, such as "adapting to the environment to be more effective living organisms", which is the definition I was also using.
In that sense, when the environment changes quickly, many human behaviors, emotions, and adaptations are not environment-tailored anymore.
Hey Lucio, thx for replying, you made me thought a lot.
I thought about it and that's my take on it, based a bit on what Jordan Belfort say that all human beings born and designed to want experience pleasure and avoiding pain, so adapting to the environment it's just derived from this initiate principle, but sometimes it can contradict and that's why ppl can do things that give them pleasure even when they know it's bad for their survival, the pleasure in that activity bigger for them than the pain in reducing or risking their survivor and environmental adoption. Sometimes they don't really feel any pain from that because their wide or specific environment accepting that or they don't really care, but sometimes they feel really pain for this, if it's because they anxious about social norms and their status or they believe/know this is bad for their survivor, but still, the pleasure is bigger and that's where the dissonance giving them a rollercoaster of feelings that hurts them mentally and make them ashamed and self-hate.
Why ppl can develop such things? I agree with what u said and it was new to me too, love that concept, I can think for example of a father that teach his 2 sons how important is some value, but while one son is accepting that value and adapting to the environment the other for some reason, like secretly hating his father or think is dumb or just lower IQ do the opposite and adapting very different lifestyle from his brother, or a girl that saw in a movie how bad boys are awesome and adapting to this from various reasons and when she old enough to understand how she was wrong and how bad are they for her long run it's too late (it's never too late but she might think so). She develops that habit, conditioning, and such excitement and pleasure towards this type of man that she can't help but fall for it again and again cause it exceeds the pain of the consequences.
Even harsher cases, one may die for his country cause the pleasure of knowing/believing he saving his dear ppl or serving subjective values (pleasure) higher for him than protecting his life (pain), like God, or loyalty.
One may cut himself for the attention or compassion ppl feeling sorry for him or the excitement he gets that exceeds the physical pain, or kill himself cause he believes he will feel no more pain from his believed miserable life.
That's some marginal cases (well, some of them increased from time to time as a short term trends as environmental events occurs until long term ”correction” occurs) but we all suffer from minor symptoms of that, we developed some habits, conditioning, beliefs and even unconscious patterns towards the world and when some of us old enough and wiser to truly understand how unfit it is for the environment and our survivor it harder to change. I still fighting with my habit that I developed young age when kids in my class laugh at my stuffer to close up myself and not really share with other ppl (even long after I lose my stuffer ?) that make me look distant.
Love to hear ur thought on that! btw, not really related to the subject but I go through the course and can't find the section about different cultures and gender approach, there a reason? I thought it was really good!

Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on October 31, 2020, 3:00 pm
Yeah, good topic for a discussion in front of a wine or drink, too :).
I agree with you that we could define evolution in larger terms, also including culture.
But then we need to disentangle evolution with the usual meaning that people assign to it, such as "adapting to the environment to be more effective living organisms", which is the definition I was also using.
In that sense, when the environment changes quickly, many human behaviors, emotions, and adaptations are not environment-tailored anymore.

Hey Lucio, thx for replying, you made me thought a lot.

I thought about it and that's my take on it, based a bit on what Jordan Belfort say that all human beings born and designed to want experience pleasure and avoiding pain, so adapting to the environment it's just derived from this initiate principle, but sometimes it can contradict and that's why ppl can do things that give them pleasure even when they know it's bad for their survival, the pleasure in that activity bigger for them than the pain in reducing or risking their survivor and environmental adoption. Sometimes they don't really feel any pain from that because their wide or specific environment accepting that or they don't really care, but sometimes they feel really pain for this, if it's because they anxious about social norms and their status or they believe/know this is bad for their survivor, but still, the pleasure is bigger and that's where the dissonance giving them a rollercoaster of feelings that hurts them mentally and make them ashamed and self-hate.

Why ppl can develop such things? I agree with what u said and it was new to me too, love that concept, I can think for example of a father that teach his 2 sons how important is some value, but while one son is accepting that value and adapting to the environment the other for some reason, like secretly hating his father or think is dumb or just lower IQ do the opposite and adapting very different lifestyle from his brother, or a girl that saw in a movie how bad boys are awesome and adapting to this from various reasons and when she old enough to understand how she was wrong and how bad are they for her long run it's too late (it's never too late but she might think so). She develops that habit, conditioning, and such excitement and pleasure towards this type of man that she can't help but fall for it again and again cause it exceeds the pain of the consequences.

Even harsher cases, one may die for his country cause the pleasure of knowing/believing he saving his dear ppl or serving subjective values (pleasure) higher for him than protecting his life (pain), like God, or loyalty.

One may cut himself for the attention or compassion ppl feeling sorry for him or the excitement he gets that exceeds the physical pain, or kill himself cause he believes he will feel no more pain from his believed miserable life.

That's some marginal cases (well, some of them increased from time to time as a short term trends as environmental events occurs until long term ”correction” occurs) but we all suffer from minor symptoms of that, we developed some habits, conditioning, beliefs and even unconscious patterns towards the world and when some of us old enough and wiser to truly understand how unfit it is for the environment and our survivor it harder to change. I still fighting with my habit that I developed young age when kids in my class laugh at my stuffer to close up myself and not really share with other ppl (even long after I lose my stuffer ?) that make me look distant.

Love to hear ur thought on that! btw, not really related to the subject but I go through the course and can't find the section about different cultures and gender approach, there a reason? I thought it was really good!

#6 · November 15, 2020, 9:52 am

Quote from Hamberbar on November 14, 2020, 11:36 pm
Love to hear ur thought on that! btw, not really related to the subject but I go through the course and can't find the section about different cultures and gender approach, there a reason? I thought it was really good!

Hi Hamberbar,

Do you mean something specific with this?

There are lessons for women only and smaller sections of "PRO Tips" aimed at men or women for when the strategies and best behavior differ depending on gender.
And there are notes on when the culture shapes the strategy.

There were a couple of lessons dealing more with the general principles but I removed them since PU is meant to be more practical than theoretical.

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#7 · November 15, 2020, 10:13 am

Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on November 15, 2020, 9:52 am
Quote from Hamberbar on November 14, 2020, 11:36 pm
Love to hear ur thought on that! btw, not really related to the subject but I go through the course and can't find the section about different cultures and gender approach, there a reason? I thought it was really good!
Hi Hamberbar,
Do you mean something specific with this?
There are lessons for women only and smaller sections of "PRO Tips" aimed at men or women for when the strategies and best behavior differ depending on gender.
And there are notes on when the culture shapes the strategy.
There were a couple of lessons dealing more with the general principles but I removed them since PU is meant to be more practical than theoretical.

Yeah, there was a lesson I think in module 6 or 7 about polite culture vs more direct one and formal vs informal etc... I just wondered why because I liked it

#8 · November 15, 2020, 10:20 am

Got it.

Yeah, true.
I will turn it into a post eventually since it's good information indeed, just didn't think it was practical enough to be on PU and I also have to keep it concise enough or it would overwhelm people.

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#9 · November 15, 2020, 10:32 am

Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on November 15, 2020, 10:20 am
Got it.
Yeah, true.
I will turn it into a post eventually since it's good information indeed, just didn't think it was practical enough to be on PU and I also have to keep it concise enough or it would overwhelm people.

yeah you right, I live in a kinda multicultural country and it helps to look it up from time to time to refine those little modifications with different cultures.

Thx man!

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#10 · November 15, 2020, 10:36 am

We can say that "nature is a satisfier not an optimizer" !

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