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Try to Understand Power Move?

#11 · April 13, 2023, 5:51 am

Quote from Maverick on April 13, 2023, 5:51 am

Quote from Bel on April 12, 2023, 12:43 pm

Him: Hey guys, you won't believe what Mav told me yesterday! He thinks that ...

Part 1: Isolate the asshole

On the other hand, surfacing his (already somewhat obvious, but not totally obvious) move - at a cost for him - would have communicated you are ready to make him pay socially for his nasty moves (thus reducing the likelihood he pulls another one in the future), and at the same time could have brought the group to your side by surfacing his nastiness:

You: It's interesting you are now getting into this debate over my opinion. I remember when you asked me what I thought yesterday in private, you didn't seem so against my idea as you are now...

I would include the part where he "didn't seem so against the idea" - even if he was against it from the beginning: his move of bringing out your private discussion to mock you in public is too nasty.

Hi Bel!

This was gold!, I was not sure how to go about it, when he shared my opinion in the group to mock me, he framed it as me not understanding something elementary so I felt I had to justify my arguments and defend.

I find your suggestion very relevant to my situation.

Part 2: Keep rapport with the rest of the group

Then you could add the philosopher frame to keep rapport with the rest of the group:

You: And by the way guys, I see the merit in your opinion, I guess it's a matter of personal preference as with everything in life.

or something similar.

The most important thing in these situations is to not fall into the manipulative frame - that was set here by this guy - that you have to fight against the group as a whole.

In fact, you want to isolate the bastard and subcommunicate to the group that you are siding with all the rest.

OFF TOPIC

If I interpreted the dynamics correctly, I think this dynamic, which is already exposed in some of PU's lessons (I remember the video where the guy bought a "champagne diamond") may merit a name if not already present in the dictionary of power.

It is a form of ganging up, but a manipulative one: the ganging up is mostly due to the mark falling into the frame of "they are all against me" set by the manipulator.

It is a reaction of the group to the mark's behavior, not to the manipulator's behavior.

Thank you for this nugget of an answer Bel! it was very helpful. I'll keep this in mind for the future.

Mav

Quote from Bel on April 12, 2023, 12:43 pm

Him: Hey guys, you won't believe what Mav told me yesterday! He thinks that ...

Part 1: Isolate the asshole

On the other hand, surfacing his (already somewhat obvious, but not totally obvious) move - at a cost for him - would have communicated you are ready to make him pay socially for his nasty moves (thus reducing the likelihood he pulls another one in the future), and at the same time could have brought the group to your side by surfacing his nastiness:

You: It's interesting you are now getting into this debate over my opinion. I remember when you asked me what I thought yesterday in private, you didn't seem so against my idea as you are now...

I would include the part where he "didn't seem so against the idea" - even if he was against it from the beginning: his move of bringing out your private discussion to mock you in public is too nasty.

Hi Bel!

This was gold!, I was not sure how to go about it, when he shared my opinion in the group to mock me, he framed it as me not understanding something elementary so I felt I had to justify my arguments and defend.

I find your suggestion very relevant to my situation.

Part 2: Keep rapport with the rest of the group

Then you could add the philosopher frame to keep rapport with the rest of the group:

You: And by the way guys, I see the merit in your opinion, I guess it's a matter of personal preference as with everything in life.

or something similar.

The most important thing in these situations is to not fall into the manipulative frame - that was set here by this guy - that you have to fight against the group as a whole.

In fact, you want to isolate the bastard and subcommunicate to the group that you are siding with all the rest.

OFF TOPIC

If I interpreted the dynamics correctly, I think this dynamic, which is already exposed in some of PU's lessons (I remember the video where the guy bought a "champagne diamond") may merit a name if not already present in the dictionary of power.

It is a form of ganging up, but a manipulative one: the ganging up is mostly due to the mark falling into the frame of "they are all against me" set by the manipulator.

It is a reaction of the group to the mark's behavior, not to the manipulator's behavior.

Thank you for this nugget of an answer Bel! it was very helpful. I'll keep this in mind for the future.

Mav

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#12 · April 13, 2023, 6:04 am

Quote from Maverick on April 13, 2023, 6:04 am

Quote from John Freeman on April 12, 2023, 3:41 pm

Hello Maverick,

I see this situation like this: most of times these debates have no real importance. That is that they don't have real consequences. These are opinions shared on topics that are not life-changing (it's not about deciding climate policies or the national budget). They are more about ego battles. I agree to try to understand what the group means in the first place. And if despite them trying to explain I don't understand/don't agree I let it go: "Ok, it seems we have a different opinion on this, but it's not that important (rapport building)".

In this case, I think also about mindset. Personnally I would not care that much, when it happens it means I got too invested in the "who's right" dynamics. So now I'm doing my best to prevent getting sucked in these in the first place and/or entrenched in my position.

Also, there is one way to get out of it is to recognize that we all have different opinions (and it does not matter that much) and move on. For instance if you understand their POV and still don't agree:

You: Alright, I understand better thank you. (warm smile) Yeah sometimes we have different point of views on a topic, it happens (rapport building, normalizing, philosopher phrame).

And then say nothing or move on

If you could share the topic discussed, that would also help me to understand what's at stake.

So I think that having the general mindset that these conversations become ego battles among a peer group (battle for status) and are not that important help me not to take them so seriously. They make it so important, I would let them. Generally, I'm not interested in being right so much, I prefer to learn. These days I also realized that being more detached might be a sign of status: you have more important matters to think about/consider than this one. It's not about showing it, it's more about internalizing it. It's not easy and I fail sometimes of course.

I'm curious to know what you guys think on this approach: that is a mindset of not caring so much as a way to prevent these power moves.

Hi John,

I can confirm this debate was not life changing, or enlightening in any way, it was at the end all about who is right like you said, I usually adopt what you have suggested here, sometimes I feel this approach is like a double edged sword, it has benefits, but the cons I feel are, every time I refuse to engage, it just encourages the other person to keep at it more, until either I end up in the power down position with the other thinking I'm okay with his behavior or it ends up with me being not true to who I'm, so now I tend to do this strategically in groups I meet everyday I let slip many things but sometimes, getting involved in the turkey scratching just to send out the message that "If I want to I can also dish it back". I find deciding when to get involved and when not to get involved a tricky choice.

Mav

Quote from John Freeman on April 12, 2023, 3:41 pm

Hello Maverick,

I see this situation like this: most of times these debates have no real importance. That is that they don't have real consequences. These are opinions shared on topics that are not life-changing (it's not about deciding climate policies or the national budget). They are more about ego battles. I agree to try to understand what the group means in the first place. And if despite them trying to explain I don't understand/don't agree I let it go: "Ok, it seems we have a different opinion on this, but it's not that important (rapport building)".

In this case, I think also about mindset. Personnally I would not care that much, when it happens it means I got too invested in the "who's right" dynamics. So now I'm doing my best to prevent getting sucked in these in the first place and/or entrenched in my position.

Also, there is one way to get out of it is to recognize that we all have different opinions (and it does not matter that much) and move on. For instance if you understand their POV and still don't agree:

You: Alright, I understand better thank you. (warm smile) Yeah sometimes we have different point of views on a topic, it happens (rapport building, normalizing, philosopher phrame).

And then say nothing or move on

If you could share the topic discussed, that would also help me to understand what's at stake.

So I think that having the general mindset that these conversations become ego battles among a peer group (battle for status) and are not that important help me not to take them so seriously. They make it so important, I would let them. Generally, I'm not interested in being right so much, I prefer to learn. These days I also realized that being more detached might be a sign of status: you have more important matters to think about/consider than this one. It's not about showing it, it's more about internalizing it. It's not easy and I fail sometimes of course.

I'm curious to know what you guys think on this approach: that is a mindset of not caring so much as a way to prevent these power moves.

Hi John,

I can confirm this debate was not life changing, or enlightening in any way, it was at the end all about who is right like you said, I usually adopt what you have suggested here, sometimes I feel this approach is like a double edged sword, it has benefits, but the cons I feel are, every time I refuse to engage, it just encourages the other person to keep at it more, until either I end up in the power down position with the other thinking I'm okay with his behavior or it ends up with me being not true to who I'm, so now I tend to do this strategically in groups I meet everyday I let slip many things but sometimes, getting involved in the turkey scratching just to send out the message that "If I want to I can also dish it back". I find deciding when to get involved and when not to get involved a tricky choice.

Mav

John Freeman, Kavalier and DGX37 have reacted to this post.

#13 · April 13, 2023, 6:14 am

Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on April 11, 2023, 7:19 pm

Quote from Maverick on April 11, 2023, 6:10 pm

This would have been negative thread expanding, not a good move, I wasn't sure what to say here, but I feel a better reply would have been " What a weird thing to say", it would have put him in the defensive made him explain.

Mav

I wasn't there and you know better.
But generally speaking, my first advice when it's a whole group who disagrees with an individual is to focus less on "beating the other person" and more on seeing their point of view (not least because, with plenty of exceptions, a group is more likely to be right than an individual).

Hi Lucio!

Group dynamics are something I find hard to wrap my head around, when the whole group disagrees is it an indicator to let me know I'm not conforming to the group and that I need to change? If it's a newly formed group are the value that I need to confirm to decided by the majority? I find that instead of the the whole group disagreeing with me, it's usually the case that the person leading the group instigates the disagreement and everyone laughs along or pile on to it. To nip it in the bud I talk to the person trying to lead the group, with whom I don't see eye to eye on a few matters.

Mav

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#14 · April 13, 2023, 10:30 am

Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on April 13, 2023, 10:30 am

Quote from Maverick on April 11, 2023, 6:10 pm

Hi Lucio!

I agree with you, usually this is the strategy I follow, this situation is quite different I feel, for two reasons, Firstly one of the members had asked for my opinion in private and then brought it up in the group as a way to mock me, secondly the group always is correcting, and arguing about who/what is correct and making fun of the person for thinking that way, the members are pretty much jostling for status.

This is all very important background info that changes the dynamics.

Then, Bel's reply becomes more relevant: you want to check that power move.

I think so far we've given you very "adult / mature" ways of dealing with it -and those are great to have because the most mature way of handling things is usually where the most resources are traded-.

However, if I remember correctly, you're young, and groups of young men tend to be very turkey-like and constantly one-upping each other.

That doesn't mean they wouldn't recognize or respect a higher power and more eagle-like way of behaving, though.

So I may have checked the power move even more strongly.

For example:

You: Wait wait wait, so basically yesterday you ask for an opinion, IN PRIVATE (highlight that), and now you bring it up in front of everyone trying to make fun of someone who should be your friend?

Note the strategy: you never say you "asked ME", and "made fun of ME" because that would make you the loser of the story.

General principle:

Always keep it impersonal and go from "you / me" to "you / someone else" or "someone / someone else" when you're the one who's losing.
Please lemme know if helpful, I think this general principle may be worthy of PU.

Then you may add:

That's what you call a piece of shit move.
Juda

You drop that, and if -important if- you have enough conviction and power, you can truly become the new eagle leader of a group.

Not only you show power, but you ALSO show strong ethics of a leader worthy of being looked up to.

Even if it's not a one-single-shot U-turn, you still lay down a big brick of power and eagle-like qualities.

Do a few more of those, and your status is bound to rise -together with how much respect you'll command-.

Quote from Maverick on April 11, 2023, 6:10 pm

Hi Lucio!

I agree with you, usually this is the strategy I follow, this situation is quite different I feel, for two reasons, Firstly one of the members had asked for my opinion in private and then brought it up in the group as a way to mock me, secondly the group always is correcting, and arguing about who/what is correct and making fun of the person for thinking that way, the members are pretty much jostling for status.

This is all very important background info that changes the dynamics.

Then, Bel's reply becomes more relevant: you want to check that power move.

I think so far we've given you very "adult / mature" ways of dealing with it -and those are great to have because the most mature way of handling things is usually where the most resources are traded-.

However, if I remember correctly, you're young, and groups of young men tend to be very turkey-like and constantly one-upping each other.

That doesn't mean they wouldn't recognize or respect a higher power and more eagle-like way of behaving, though.

So I may have checked the power move even more strongly.

For example:

You: Wait wait wait, so basically yesterday you ask for an opinion, IN PRIVATE (highlight that), and now you bring it up in front of everyone trying to make fun of someone who should be your friend?

Note the strategy: you never say you "asked ME", and "made fun of ME" because that would make you the loser of the story.

General principle:

Always keep it impersonal and go from "you / me" to "you / someone else" or "someone / someone else" when you're the one who's losing.
Please lemme know if helpful, I think this general principle may be worthy of PU.

Then you may add:

That's what you call a piece of shit move.
Juda

You drop that, and if -important if- you have enough conviction and power, you can truly become the new eagle leader of a group.

Not only you show power, but you ALSO show strong ethics of a leader worthy of being looked up to.

Even if it's not a one-single-shot U-turn, you still lay down a big brick of power and eagle-like qualities.

Do a few more of those, and your status is bound to rise -together with how much respect you'll command-.

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#15 · April 13, 2023, 3:54 pm

I agree this is a totally important principle worthy of PU:

Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on April 13, 2023, 10:30 am

You: Wait wait wait, so basically yesterday you ask for an opinion, IN PRIVATE (highlight that), and now you bring it up in front of everyone trying to make fun of someone who should be your friend?

Note the strategy: you never say you "asked ME", and "made fun of ME" because that would make you the loser of the story.

General principle:

Always keep it impersonal and go from "you / me" to "you / someone else" or "someone / someone else" when you're the one who's losing.
Please lemme know if helpful, I think this general principle may be worthy of PU.

It's something I read you previously mention many times, and difficult to implement while starting, but totally awesome.

It makes a lot of difference because:

it avoids giving the vibe that one may even suspect the issue is with himself
it correctly frames the issue as residing mainly with the power mover, who would do it to "anybody" (including, potentially, other group members)
it removes any "grappling point" for the power mover to revert back the issue to "you"
it subcommunicates you are already removing your "social closeness/relationship" from the power mover.

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#16 · April 13, 2023, 7:03 pm

After reading the replies I think the general idea is:
If the discussion's purpose is to harm you ( make you lose status, make you angry ) you should not be part of it, doesn't matter if individual or group started it.

If they talk to someone the way they did in this situation, trying to make the person explain his position, if this person asnwers they take part in it, which subconsciously shows that they deserve fair treatment and respect only if they are right. If they aren't they need to explain themselves, take jokes and teasing.

And that's a very bad position, everyone is wrong sometimes, if this X got wrong, it would be an asshole move to rail the group against him and make him explain, if the attacked guy accepted this treatment, he would need to be afraid of saying something wrong because everytime he does group will feel they have right to scrutinize him, and being afraid of asking questions and wondering about things is not healthy, is it?

So when one if confronted, by group or individual, in a harmful way to them, they should ignore the argument and instead focus on the way the discussion is going, and reject the discussion itself, for example "I respect that you have different opinion, but surrounding one person as a group and questioning him is not a way to discuss things".

Probably the only exception I can think of is if someone did something really bad, like hurting someone, and the group confonts him about it, then one accepts his wrongdoing, apologizes and makes up for it. But having different opinion is obviously not even close to "something really bad".

Maverick has reacted to this post.

#17 · April 17, 2023, 6:43 pm

Quote from Maverick on April 17, 2023, 6:43 pm

Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on April 13, 2023, 10:30 am

Quote from Maverick on April 11, 2023, 6:10 pm

Hi Lucio!

I agree with you, usually this is the strategy I follow, this situation is quite different I feel, for two reasons, Firstly one of the members had asked for my opinion in private and then brought it up in the group as a way to mock me, secondly the group always is correcting, and arguing about who/what is correct and making fun of the person for thinking that way, the members are pretty much jostling for status.

This is all very important background info that changes the dynamics.

Then, Bel's reply becomes more relevant: you want to check that power move.

I think so far we've given you very "adult / mature" ways of dealing with it -and those are great to have because the most mature way of handling things is usually where the most resources are traded-.

However, if I remember correctly, you're young, and groups of young men tend to be very turkey-like and constantly one-upping each other.

That doesn't mean they wouldn't recognize or respect a higher power and more eagle-like way of behaving, though.

So I may have checked the power move even more strongly.

For example:

You: Wait wait wait, so basically yesterday you ask for an opinion, IN PRIVATE (highlight that), and now you bring it up in front of everyone trying to make fun of someone who should be your friend?

Note the strategy: you never say you "asked ME", and "made fun of ME" because that would make you the loser of the story.

General principle:

Always keep it impersonal and go from "you / me" to "you / someone else" or "someone / someone else" when you're the one who's losing.
Please lemme know if helpful, I think this general principle may be worthy of PU.

Then you may add:

That's what you call a piece of shit move.
Juda

You drop that, and if -important if- you have enough conviction and power, you can truly become the new eagle leader of a group.

Not only you show power, but you ALSO show strong ethics of a leader worthy of being looked up to.

Even if it's not a one-single-shot U-turn, you still lay down a big brick of power and eagle-like qualities.

Do a few more of those, and your status is bound to rise -together with how much respect you'll command-.

Hi Lucio!

This was helpful,I'll keep it in mind for next time. I think it is PU Worthy. I can always use this for the next time.

Thank You Lucio, I did learn a lot from this entire exchange.

Mav

Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on April 13, 2023, 10:30 am

Quote from Maverick on April 11, 2023, 6:10 pm

Hi Lucio!

I agree with you, usually this is the strategy I follow, this situation is quite different I feel, for two reasons, Firstly one of the members had asked for my opinion in private and then brought it up in the group as a way to mock me, secondly the group always is correcting, and arguing about who/what is correct and making fun of the person for thinking that way, the members are pretty much jostling for status.

This is all very important background info that changes the dynamics.

Then, Bel's reply becomes more relevant: you want to check that power move.

I think so far we've given you very "adult / mature" ways of dealing with it -and those are great to have because the most mature way of handling things is usually where the most resources are traded-.

However, if I remember correctly, you're young, and groups of young men tend to be very turkey-like and constantly one-upping each other.

That doesn't mean they wouldn't recognize or respect a higher power and more eagle-like way of behaving, though.

So I may have checked the power move even more strongly.

For example:

You: Wait wait wait, so basically yesterday you ask for an opinion, IN PRIVATE (highlight that), and now you bring it up in front of everyone trying to make fun of someone who should be your friend?

Note the strategy: you never say you "asked ME", and "made fun of ME" because that would make you the loser of the story.

General principle:

Always keep it impersonal and go from "you / me" to "you / someone else" or "someone / someone else" when you're the one who's losing.
Please lemme know if helpful, I think this general principle may be worthy of PU.

Then you may add:

That's what you call a piece of shit move.
Juda

You drop that, and if -important if- you have enough conviction and power, you can truly become the new eagle leader of a group.

Not only you show power, but you ALSO show strong ethics of a leader worthy of being looked up to.

Even if it's not a one-single-shot U-turn, you still lay down a big brick of power and eagle-like qualities.

Do a few more of those, and your status is bound to rise -together with how much respect you'll command-.

Hi Lucio!

This was helpful,I'll keep it in mind for next time. I think it is PU Worthy. I can always use this for the next time.

Thank You Lucio, I did learn a lot from this entire exchange.

Mav

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