Former Community – We Moved
🆕 Coached community here, for posts & feedback public community here.
"What's wrong?" as a way to make you feel wrong
Hi Everyone!
This is a power move I encountered in the past from some people.
I would usually be at lunch or dinner at their home, and I would be feeling pretty normally good.
Manipulative thread-expanding: "you don't feel ok"
They would start asking:
Power mover: What's wrong Bel?
Or variations of this, which would be repeated - as long as it took - if I didn't take the bait initially:
Power mover: What do you have?
Power mover: Why are you down?
Power mover: Why that look?
Power mover: What got to you?
Sometimes I would engage in a dialogue, trying to assure them that I was feeling fine:
Me: What do you mean? I'm ok.
Power mover: Naaah, you don't fool me. Try to stay upbeat. Don't think about it.
I remember, in one occasion - out of exasperation and out of the fact that I was starting to get something was not right here - I even tried to suggest I was feeling better than the power mover:
Power mover: What's wrong Bel?
Me: X, I feel better than you do actually.
Power mover: (getting angry and contemptuous) That's impossible.
Effects of the power move
This power move was successful, in the past, to bring me down.
I would start thinking maybe the power mover saw something in me that I didn't, or in any case I took (subconscious) responsibility for bringing the mood/interaction down.
It never occurred to me, before-TPM, that the question could be asked maliciously and on purpose.
In fact, I believe it was precisely asked to bring my mood down, and (in public settings) to manufacture the impression I was bringing the group down.
As to this second aspect, the damage is very insidious and the power move is very nasty:
- if the person on the receiving end falls for it, and thus starts feeling down, the group sees that the frame is confirmed by the person on the receiving end: thus, the group will buy the frame for sure;
- if the person on the receiving end does not fall for it, but does not surface the manipulation, the group will start to doubt whether the frame is correct or not: the focus will still be on the person on the receiving end, instead of the manipulator. And, the manipulator may later be able to twist some other innocent thing to play on that doubt and reinforce the frame.
More generally, "manipulative thread-expansion" is particularly insidious because it first tries to recruit the power-moved himself into the manipulative frame: the group buy-in is an effect of the buy-in by the power-moved person.
But even without buy-in by the person, the manipulation can still cast doubt and shift the group focus onto the "manipulative frame": the group will start thinking "Is this so? Maybe he's right, Bel did seem pensive this evening..."Â
In this specific case the move is also, very probably, a form of manipulative mirroring and projective identification, where the power mover tries to project his feeling "not ok" onto another, and - if the mark falls for it - then feels better.
How to handle it
The first key to address this is recognizing that it is a malicious power move, meant to bring one down.
That already avoids one falling into the frame of having shown "sadness" or "worry" or "not being fine" or having "soured the mood" or having "brought the group down".
Since the power move is definitely malicious and it is a form of manipulative thread-expanding, I believe the two ways to address this may be:
- ignoring (in a one-on-one setting);
- going meta on the manipulative thread-expanding (in a group setting, to avoid them being able to manufacture the feeling that you are bringing the group down).
Maybe:
Power mover: What's wrong Bel?
Me: Nothing, in fact I'm pretty good. (deny the frame politely, ideally showing "feeling good" in how one responds)
Power mover: You don't fool me. You look down, what got to you?
Me: I don't think so, X. (reinforce denial of the frame by removing the positive reframing) You on the other hand do not seem to be ok. (surfacing the real reason) And, I would surmise you better address your personal situation instead of trying to bring other people down with these out-of-the-blue questions. (surfacing the manipulative thread-expanding and imposing social cost on the power mover)
Even if one assumes that, in limited cases, the power move may not be malicious, it is still damaging to the receiving person - as it frames the person as "not ok". So the denial is, I believe, warranted in any case.
Happy to read your view on this.
Quote from Bel on March 6, 2023, 2:06 pmHi Everyone!
This is a power move I encountered in the past from some people.
I would usually be at lunch or dinner at their home, and I would be feeling pretty normally good.
Manipulative thread-expanding: "you don't feel ok"
They would start asking:
Power mover: What's wrong Bel?
Or variations of this, which would be repeated - as long as it took - if I didn't take the bait initially:
Power mover: What do you have?
Power mover: Why are you down?
Power mover: Why that look?
Power mover: What got to you?
Hi Bel
IÂ feel this is a very malicious power move, reeks of gaslight. I have had a similar version done to me, rather than "down" it was "why are you angry"
I like the moves you provided for how to handle these power moves,
Some more ways that you could handle these after they have established a pattern is, this might be a bit sneaky but it's a fun method to play with.
Power mover: What's wrong
Me: So many things
Me: Roger Federer retired, (You can get creative with the list)
Using this you need to careful that you don't complain about any real thing, it's a subtle mockery of their question.
Power mover: What's wrong
Me: Depends, what do you mean by wrong?/ why do you think there is something wrong?
Power Mover: Blah Blah Blah
Me: Ya nothings wrong, thank you for your concern.
With this you can judge their definition, and refuse their frame altogether
How to handle it
The first key to address this is recognizing that it is a malicious power move, meant to bring one down.
That already avoids one falling into the frame of having shown "sadness" or "worry" or "not being fine" or having "soured the mood" or having "brought the group down".
Since the power move is definitely malicious and it is a form of manipulative thread-expanding, I believe the two ways to address this may be:
- ignoring (in a one-on-one setting);
- going meta on the manipulative thread-expanding (in a group setting, to avoid them being able to manufacture the feeling that you are bringing the group down).
Maybe:
Power mover: What's wrong Bel?
Me: Nothing, in fact I'm pretty good. (deny the frame politely, ideally showing "feeling good" in how one responds)
Power mover: You don't fool me. You look down, what got to you?
Me: I don't think so, X. (reinforce denial of the frame by removing the positive reframing) You on the other hand do not seem to be ok. (surfacing the real reason) And, I would surmise you better address your personal situation instead of trying to bring other people down with these out-of-the-blue questions. (surfacing the manipulative thread-expanding and imposing social cost on the power mover)
Even if one assumes that, in limited cases, the power move may not be malicious, it is still damaging to the receiving person - as it frames the person as "not ok". So the denial is, I believe, warranted in any case.
Happy to read your view on this
In this case with these solutions, if you deny and they frame impose in response to the denial, or you go meta you still risk bringing down the mood and it will be a piece of cake to blame you for ruining the whole mood. This whole setup stinks if it is actually a power move, if not it is a very poor uncalibrated social faux pax on their part.
Quote from Bel on March 6, 2023, 2:06 pmMe: What do you mean? I'm ok.
Power mover: Naaah, you don't fool me. Try to stay upbeat. Don't think about it.
Power mover: What's wrong Bel?
Me: X, I feel better than you do actually.
Power mover: (getting angry and contemptuous) That's impossible
In the above to responses, you'll notice that they are the one asking questions, and you are following by answering, In the first one you asked a question but it was totally ignored, so my suggestion is to stick with your question and DEMAND to know what makes them think you are not alright, once they tell you, you can simply so that they are wrong, and you are alright and then thank them for their concern.
In power level terms their power move is around 3-4, pretty insidious but hard to detect, and if by any chance you blow up, it will be an over reaction making you look thin skinned and indeed prove them right. You just have to stick with your frame and later thank them for their concern, this is my opinion on this
Mav
Hello, guys!
Fantastic analysis, Bel!
I have been in the receiving end of this power move many times and never answered this properly. Now your thread gave me the opportunity to reflect on this!
But I think the answer you suggested is quite strong, because the power move is covert:
Power mover: You don't fool me. You look down, what got to you?
Me: I don't think so, X. (reinforce denial of the frame by removing the positive reframing) You on the other hand do not seem to be ok. (surfacing the real reason) And, I would surmise you better address your personal situation instead of trying to bring other people down with these out-of-the-blue questions. (surfacing the manipulative thread-expanding and imposing social cost on the power mover)
It's easy for him to deny that he was trying to social climb on you, and that he was just "worried about you", and it came from a place of "caring". And it would look like to the others that you were being mean against a well-meaning person. It's a tricky situation: we see the power move, tend to get annoyed, and therefore we "confirm" his frame that we weren't okay.
I personally would have answered with a "relax, buddy. It's truly everything all right :). " (a slight smile, to maintain rapport; but don't change your mental state much). If he insists, you might say (warmly, but also slightly amused) "it's very kind of you, X, I appreciate that. But you are mistaken ;)".
This way you frame him as the one that needs to "relax". It puts pressure back on him, because if he was the only one who thought you looked down, it will be hard for him to objectively prove his point.
In the end it's a stupid game these people play, because, if we stay calm and refute their frame politely, they actually lose power. It becomes evident to everyone they're clueless at reading people.
Great analysis indeed.
Just a quick first message that there's a much milder but far more common and still disempowering version of this power move, and it's:
Are you OK?
Or:
Are you good?
The simple fact that one is asking casts doubt on the fact that you're "OK".
And it opens the thread that you may be not be or, atl east, that you do not look "good" or "OK".
As a matter of fact, the moment one asks people are far more likely to think you're not OK, than you are.
This one is often not a malicious power move, but an actually kind gesture.
As an introvert I've often checked out a bit from various groups and even kind and "good" women or ex girlfriends would often ask that.
The original goal is to be supportive, but the effect often isn't very helpful.
The group may look around and start wondering: is he not OK? Are we boring him, or does he think he's too good for us? Are the two of them going good or is he hiding something?
Funny enough, it's even worse if the person asking cares so much that he/she may look worried when asking.
As for handling, I tend to agree with Mav and Kavalier.
There's a time and place for everything and that response is probably better than nothing.
Still, it may be too confrontational considering that he's still very much undercover, and potentially sour the mood (turning you into the pariah).
Personally what I would sometimes do is avoid answering verbally and instead make a facial expression corrugating your eyebrows and curling your lips, as if to say:
What the f*ck of a question is that
Sub-communication being:
"what are you on, there is no reason even to ask or think that".
Now it's on them to either stop, or insist.
The more they insist though, the more they invest of course and the more they come out of their cover.
And you can just keep answering with lower investment.
For example, still nonverbally rotating your index finger around your temple as if to say:
Are you crazy or what
Or with fewer words:
'da f*ck you talking about
And of course, replace the curse word for something else to better suit the group if it's a "non-swearing" situation.
In any case, the goal is:
Make HIM look stupid for even asking such a question.
If you entertain the question, you do inadvertendly lend some credibility to that thread.
Instead, when he says "what's wrong", I prefer to refuse to even entertain that thread.
Then, with your attitude and with lower investment, you throw back in his face that there is something wrong with him.
Alternatively, you can thread expand on it, but I still wouldn't attack head-on since this one is too covert.
For example:
What's with this guy making shit up.
IF he insists you don't seem OK, then you can be a bit more aggressive (reason being that with his insistence you're luring him more and more out of his initial cover).
For example:
Him: yeah, you seem downtrodden or something
You: what are you talking about, you're downtrodding me here, leave me alone
And it doesn't end there.
The social strategist will then make it a point to be even a bit chirpier than usual in the next few minutes just to show everyone that the power mover was out of place.
Added bonus if you can take a chance to (jokingly) one-up the power mover, just to show that you bite back.
Thank you so much Maverick, Kavalier, Lucio!
These approaches are total powerhouses. What this kind of power mover deserves is to be told to "relax".
I get that expending less effort than the power mover here is key, to avoid justifying or denying.
I find this is also key to avoid the group forming a wrong impression:
Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on March 9, 2023, 3:54 amThe social strategist will then make it a point to be even a bit chirpier than usual in the next few minutes just to show everyone that the power mover was out of place.
Added bonus if you can take a chance to (jokingly) one-up the power mover, just to show that you bite back.
From this thread I also get that, even in the case that Lucio points out of the milder, non-malicious version of the power move (ie someone truly asking if we are "ok" or if it's "all good"), some form of mild disempowering back is necessary to avoid the focus of the group wrongly shifting.
Maybe just a pat on the back and a reassuring look, to non-verbally suggest that one is ok and also concerned about the asker.
