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"You're picky" power move

#1 · October 17, 2023, 9:38 pm

Hello TPM community,

at a party I was talking with my friend's GF who's a manipulator. After the travel topic, she was looking for the next topic where she's better than me: I'm single she's in a couple so here we go.

Me: [sharing that it's a challenge to find a woman]
Her: You're picky (smiles)
Me: [shares my 5-6 criteria for a woman, including her being spiritual]
Her: you're picky, there are not many people who are spiritual
Me: I think the opposite
Her: [goes on to tell me that it makes her anxious to think about the Universe being so big and all]

Here, by saying "you're picky", she's probably implying several negative things:

You should date at your level instead of trying to date higher
It's your own fault if you're single

Here my mistake was to:

Enter her frame
Justify (giving her the judge role)

I think here I should have surfaced as it was not entirely clear what she meant. She would have invested more and she would have been the one to justify herself. Again here it's pure power dynamics. She does not have my best interest at heart and do not want my happiness. Otherwise she would have been empathetic or have given me advice which she did not.

My solution

Me: [sharing that it's a challenge to find a woman]
Her: You're picky (smiles)
Me: What do you mean?
Her: [explains more]
Me: well I think everybody has their own criteria. Anyway [bridges]

Happy to read what you guys think.

Kavalier and Power Duck have reacted to this post.

#2 · October 17, 2023, 10:57 pm

Hello, John

I think that, no matter her intentions, someone telling you that you're picky is not disempowering at all. Quite the contrary: if one is picky, that means he is the chooser, he's got the power. It implies that if you're single, it's not because women don't want you, it's because you don't want them.

My suggestion is to thread-expand on that:

John: [sharing that it's a challenge to find a woman]
Her: You're picky (smiles)
John: I have standards (smiles) (both thread-expanding and indirectly shaming her, since it subcommunicates she doesn't have any)

If she meant to criticize you, then she'll have to be clearer, which will give you an opportunity to check it adequately. If she gets defensive (because of the shaming) , you have the option to validate her and explain your criteria in a philosopher's frame.

The passage below can also be interpreted in a not so negative way:

Her: [goes on to tell me that it makes her anxious to think about the Universe being so big and all]

I see it as the equivalent of she telling you why she can't stand to your criteria, and then complaining that you have to lower them. That way the picture she paints still has you power up.

That was also a great opportunity to branch off to other subjects. From there you could have both discussed your views of the Universe, she might have shared why it makes her anxious, you might have shared why you find it fascinating... and the initial combative frame would have stayed far behind.

Lucio Buffalmano, Matthew Whitewood and 4 other users have reacted to this post.

#3 · October 17, 2023, 11:17 pm

Quote from John Freeman on October 17, 2023, 11:17 pm
Thank you Kavalier, it makes total sense.
I should have given more context: we have a common friend who's a Romanian woman 37 years old very self-centred. And of course she thinks she deserves a millionaire but no millionaire would get with her. And she's labeled as picky by her. We all know this girl is going to stay single (because she's basically not interesting and annoying) and people say it out loud. So when she says "you're picky" with a smile it means that she frames me just as her.
My failure was to take on this frame instead of the one you propose.
I did not go the: "I have standards" road because I knew she would tell me: "that's why you're single". Then I would say: "I prefer to be single than to be with the wrong person". Then her: "so stop complaining". Me: "I'm not complaining. I would like to meet someone but I'm happy." but that would have been thread-expanding on me being single despite my desire therefore would have framed me as powerless/incel/undesirable.
About spirituality making me power up it did exactly that so I stopped to thread expand on it at some point as it felt like a power move.
Yes I could have talked more about the Universe, you're right. To be honest, now I'm more sensitive to people's vibe combined with the increased power awareness. So there are people now it's quite disagreeable to stand next to them or talk to them due to the negativity. That's how I felt with her.
All that to say that I do agree with your post despite the added details.
I actually cannot maintain the frame "I have standards and prefer to be single than to be with the wrong person" since it's incongruent with me being single. And she knows it that's why she attacked me on that.
As usual there is also the emotional climate which is with her: "Why do you do that?" on the tone of "Why do you do that dumb thing?" hence I entered the travel competition as she puts the other person in the justifying role.
That's my answer for tonight thank you very much again. I'll read your post again tomorrow better rested so I can answer to the best of my ability.
For more context: she's the GF of the guy who talked shit behind my back (despite being a good friend usually but I think he got pissed off when I put boundaries with him: "you take sides with people you never met against your friend" when he said "they fuck more than you"). So there starts to be a whole backstory now haha.

Thank you Kavalier, it makes total sense.

I should have given more context: we have a common friend who's a Romanian woman 37 years old very self-centred. And of course she thinks she deserves a millionaire but no millionaire would get with her. And she's labeled as picky by her. We all know this girl is going to stay single (because she's basically not interesting and annoying) and people say it out loud. So when she says "you're picky" with a smile it means that she frames me just as her.

My failure was to take on this frame instead of the one you propose.

I did not go the: "I have standards" road because I knew she would tell me: "that's why you're single". Then I would say: "I prefer to be single than to be with the wrong person". Then her: "so stop complaining". Me: "I'm not complaining. I would like to meet someone but I'm happy." but that would have been thread-expanding on me being single despite my desire therefore would have framed me as powerless/incel/undesirable.

About spirituality making me power up it did exactly that so I stopped to thread expand on it at some point as it felt like a power move.

Yes I could have talked more about the Universe, you're right. To be honest, now I'm more sensitive to people's vibe combined with the increased power awareness. So there are people now it's quite disagreeable to stand next to them or talk to them due to the negativity. That's how I felt with her.

All that to say that I do agree with your post despite the added details.

I actually cannot maintain the frame "I have standards and prefer to be single than to be with the wrong person" since it's incongruent with me being single. And she knows it that's why she attacked me on that.

As usual there is also the emotional climate which is with her: "Why do you do that?" on the tone of "Why do you do that dumb thing?" hence I entered the travel competition as she puts the other person in the justifying role.

That's my answer for tonight thank you very much again. I'll read your post again tomorrow better rested so I can answer to the best of my ability.

For more context: she's the GF of the guy who talked shit behind my back (despite being a good friend usually but I think he got pissed off when I put boundaries with him: "you take sides with people you never met against your friend" when he said "they fuck more than you"). So there starts to be a whole backstory now haha.

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#4 · October 18, 2023, 7:07 am

Quote from John Freeman on October 18, 2023, 7:07 am
Hello Kavalier,
thanks again for your answer, I think one of your strength is social finesse. Here it shows again. (Off-topic: BTW, I'm curious to know how you acquired your social skills. Maybe we could emulate you. If you feel like it of course and if you think it's explainable/teachable).
I'm answering more factually since I got the context out of the way.
Quote from Kavalier on October 17, 2023, 10:57 pm
Hello, John
I think that, no matter her intentions, someone telling you that you're picky is not disempowering at all.
Yes I agree, I think at the condition that one is able to reframe it in having standards as you said below instead of being delusional picky (I only date celebrities would be delusional). In my case my friends made fun of me in the past because I was looking for blonde girls. Also for looking for beautiful women. So they framed me as "too picky". So now I don't share my tastes in women anymore since they judge me for it (see how good of friends they are). So basically the frame that is currently on me is: "you're not going to find a beautiful blonde woman (with the other qualities I'm looking for)". As for them my ambition is a reflection on them settling down for less I think.
Quite the contrary: if one is picky, that means he is the chooser, he's got the power. It implies that if you're single, it's not because women don't want you, it's because you don't want them.
Yes I agree. That's the caveat: both are true. The women I want don't want me and the women I don't want want me. Hence my issue.
My suggestion is to thread-expand on that:
John: [sharing that it's a challenge to find a woman]
Her: You're picky (smiles)
John: I have standards (smiles) (both thread-expanding and indirectly shaming her, since it subcommunicates she doesn't have any)
Yes, I agree. Here that's why I also told her: "I respect your opinion" at some point to say: "you might judge me but I don't care".
If she meant to criticize you, then she'll have to be clearer, which will give you an opportunity to check it adequately. If she gets defensive (because of the shaming) , you have the option to validate her and explain your criteria in a philosopher's frame.
Yes, I agree. That's why the surfacing is the way to go here I think as in this situation "You're picky" was covertly agressive, hence my post. Maybe on the surface it does not look covertly agressive but with the background and her judging tone I think it's more clear now.
The passage below can also be interpreted in a not so negative way:
Her: [goes on to tell me that it makes her anxious to think about the Universe being so big and all]
Yes I agree, here she was vulnerable with me.
I see it as the equivalent of she telling you why she can't stand to your criteria, and then complaining that you have to lower them. That way the picture she paints still has you power up.
Here I'm not sure it's clear I was not interested in her. She's my friend's GF. I think it's clear to you so maybe I'm not understand what you're saying. Probably you're saying that she's saying that's why many women can't stand to my criteria. Yes it does. I probably took it too much personally despite her tone and was defensive.
That was also a great opportunity to branch off to other subjects. From there you could have both discussed your views of the Universe, she might have shared why it makes her anxious, you might have shared why you find it fascinating... and the initial combative frame would have stayed far behind.
Yes I could have. As I said above it's not so agreeable for me to interact with her. To me she's materialistic, judging, backstabbing, arrogant. So not really the kind of person I like to interact with. She has qualities of course. On the surface she's a pretty Swedish girl. But once you remove the makeup and get to know her better then she's uglier than on the first impression.
Thank you. I think woven in there is also my insecurity relative to romantic/sexual relationships showing.

Hello Kavalier,

thanks again for your answer, I think one of your strength is social finesse. Here it shows again. (Off-topic: BTW, I'm curious to know how you acquired your social skills. Maybe we could emulate you. If you feel like it of course and if you think it's explainable/teachable).

I'm answering more factually since I got the context out of the way.

Quote from Kavalier on October 17, 2023, 10:57 pm
Hello, John
I think that, no matter her intentions, someone telling you that you're picky is not disempowering at all.

Yes I agree, I think at the condition that one is able to reframe it in having standards as you said below instead of being delusional picky (I only date celebrities would be delusional). In my case my friends made fun of me in the past because I was looking for blonde girls. Also for looking for beautiful women. So they framed me as "too picky". So now I don't share my tastes in women anymore since they judge me for it (see how good of friends they are). So basically the frame that is currently on me is: "you're not going to find a beautiful blonde woman (with the other qualities I'm looking for)". As for them my ambition is a reflection on them settling down for less I think.

Quite the contrary: if one is picky, that means he is the chooser, he's got the power. It implies that if you're single, it's not because women don't want you, it's because you don't want them.

Yes I agree. That's the caveat: both are true. The women I want don't want me and the women I don't want want me. Hence my issue.

My suggestion is to thread-expand on that:
John: [sharing that it's a challenge to find a woman]
Her: You're picky (smiles)
John: I have standards (smiles) (both thread-expanding and indirectly shaming her, since it subcommunicates she doesn't have any)

Yes, I agree. Here that's why I also told her: "I respect your opinion" at some point to say: "you might judge me but I don't care".

If she meant to criticize you, then she'll have to be clearer, which will give you an opportunity to check it adequately. If she gets defensive (because of the shaming) , you have the option to validate her and explain your criteria in a philosopher's frame.

Yes, I agree. That's why the surfacing is the way to go here I think as in this situation "You're picky" was covertly agressive, hence my post. Maybe on the surface it does not look covertly agressive but with the background and her judging tone I think it's more clear now.

The passage below can also be interpreted in a not so negative way:
Her: [goes on to tell me that it makes her anxious to think about the Universe being so big and all]

Yes I agree, here she was vulnerable with me.

I see it as the equivalent of she telling you why she can't stand to your criteria, and then complaining that you have to lower them. That way the picture she paints still has you power up.

Here I'm not sure it's clear I was not interested in her. She's my friend's GF. I think it's clear to you so maybe I'm not understand what you're saying. Probably you're saying that she's saying that's why many women can't stand to my criteria. Yes it does. I probably took it too much personally despite her tone and was defensive.

That was also a great opportunity to branch off to other subjects. From there you could have both discussed your views of the Universe, she might have shared why it makes her anxious, you might have shared why you find it fascinating... and the initial combative frame would have stayed far behind.

Yes I could have. As I said above it's not so agreeable for me to interact with her. To me she's materialistic, judging, backstabbing, arrogant. So not really the kind of person I like to interact with. She has qualities of course. On the surface she's a pretty Swedish girl. But once you remove the makeup and get to know her better then she's uglier than on the first impression.

Thank you. I think woven in there is also my insecurity relative to romantic/sexual relationships showing.

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#5 · October 18, 2023, 10:52 am

Quote from Power Duck on October 18, 2023, 10:52 am
Cheers John.
Personally although I agree that sometimes it's good to talk to friends about one's/men/women struggles I would avoid doing it.
Let's say x has a gf and he's good with women, if he were to talk to a person that didn't knew he's good with women about the dating struggles of modern men the first thing the other person would think is that this guy got lucky with his gf (if she's pretty, if not then theyll asume he just settled with the 1st woman he got).
So if one tells anyone about x struggle, others will assume he has that problem, whether one really has that problem or not isn't that important actually, the thing is that now there's an "apparent" weakness that person has that can be exploited for social climbing.
Of course if you disagree or don't think that it applies to your case feel free to ignore or comment about it.
About the rest, ~~I would say it's hard to defend against it. You want to deny/minimize~~ the frame that you're picky and covertly that you're single because you're "looking out of your league".
However now that I think about it, as Kav puts it isn't a bad thing, isn't aspiring for more, growing, looking for a good partner to spend your life with and improving to get those things supposed to be something worth admiring? (I believe you've already mentioned something like this in this post) Where is most people self worth and going for what they want? Why settle for something you don't actually like just to not stand out? I think this frame can be used to shame her.
For example:
Her: your picky
John: what do you mean?
Her: there are not many spiritual people
John: well If I'm going to spend the rest of my life with someone I'd rather do it with someone I'm compatible with and that shares how I see the world. Just because lots of people settle because they can't stand being alone doesn't mean I have to do it.
Something like that, you frame her as thinking like that (which she probably does) and being close minded, while framing yourself as the emotionally independent and "rebellious" guy.
Again if you disagree feel free to comment about it.
Those are my thoughts about it.
Cheers.

Cheers John.

Personally although I agree that sometimes it's good to talk to friends about one's/men/women struggles I would avoid doing it.

Let's say x has a gf and he's good with women, if he were to talk to a person that didn't knew he's good with women about the dating struggles of modern men the first thing the other person would think is that this guy got lucky with his gf (if she's pretty, if not then theyll asume he just settled with the 1st woman he got).

So if one tells anyone about x struggle, others will assume he has that problem, whether one really has that problem or not isn't that important actually, the thing is that now there's an "apparent" weakness that person has that can be exploited for social climbing.

Of course if you disagree or don't think that it applies to your case feel free to ignore or comment about it.

About the rest, ~~I would say it's hard to defend against it. You want to deny/minimize~~ the frame that you're picky and covertly that you're single because you're "looking out of your league".

However now that I think about it, as Kav puts it isn't a bad thing, isn't aspiring for more, growing, looking for a good partner to spend your life with and improving to get those things supposed to be something worth admiring? (I believe you've already mentioned something like this in this post) Where is most people self worth and going for what they want? Why settle for something you don't actually like just to not stand out? I think this frame can be used to shame her.

For example:

Her: your picky
John: what do you mean?
Her: there are not many spiritual people
John: well If I'm going to spend the rest of my life with someone I'd rather do it with someone I'm compatible with and that shares how I see the world. Just because lots of people settle because they can't stand being alone doesn't mean I have to do it.

Something like that, you frame her as thinking like that (which she probably does) and being close minded, while framing yourself as the emotionally independent and "rebellious" guy.

Again if you disagree feel free to comment about it.

Those are my thoughts about it.

Cheers.

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#6 · October 18, 2023, 12:47 pm

Edit:

Just because lots of people settle because they can't stand being alone doesn't mean I have to do it.

I think this part is best omitted, since framing her in that way could turn the conv way more confrontational.

Also it feels as complaining/resentful for feeling that social rules are being imposed on oneself.

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#7 · October 18, 2023, 4:01 pm

My first thought when reading the topic's title was exactly the same as Kavalier.

And that I'd have owned it with "you bet I am".

Reading the exchange, I also thought that it may have been befitting the situation, rather than a power move.

To an audience, it may feel like a power move to have someone make a list of traits he seeks.

Imagine a woman saying:

My man must be smart, wealthy, tall, spiritual, and...

And you may think "no wonder today's dating is so , look at this woman's demands".

As usual, I wasn't there, so it may be a total power move.
Edit: indeed, only later I read that there was already a running reference in the group for "pickiness"

And of course that's not to say one shouldn't have a list, or be picky.

Quite the opposite.

But I personally would only share that with very few people, in some specific situations.

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#8 · October 18, 2023, 9:03 pm

Quote from John Freeman on October 18, 2023, 9:03 pm
Thank you Power Duck for your answer!
Quote from Power Duck on October 18, 2023, 10:52 am
Cheers John.
Personally although I agree that sometimes it's good to talk to friends about one's/men/women struggles I would avoid doing it.
Yeah, right. I did not think about it.
Let's say x has a gf and he's good with women, if he were to talk to a person that didn't knew he's good with women about the dating struggles of modern men the first thing the other person would think is that this guy got lucky with his gf (if she's pretty, if not then theyll asume he just settled with the 1st woman he got).
So if one tells anyone about x struggle, others will assume he has that problem, whether one really has that problem or not isn't that important actually, the thing is that now there's an "apparent" weakness that person has that can be exploited for social climbing.
Right.
Of course if you disagree or don't think that it applies to your case feel free to ignore or comment about it.
I think it applies to my case.
About the rest, ~~I would say it's hard to defend against it. You want to deny/minimize~~ the frame that you're picky and covertly that you're single because you're "looking out of your league".
However now that I think about it, as Kav puts it isn't a bad thing, isn't aspiring for more, growing, looking for a good partner to spend your life with and improving to get those things supposed to be something worth admiring? (I believe you've already mentioned something like this in this post) Where is most people self worth and going for what they want? Why settle for something you don't actually like just to not stand out? I think this frame can be used to shame her.
Definitely.
For example:
Her: your picky
John: what do you mean?
Her: there are not many spiritual people
John: well If I'm going to spend the rest of my life with someone I'd rather do it with someone I'm compatible with and that shares how I see the world. Just because lots of people settle because they can't stand being alone doesn't mean I have to do it.
Quote from Power Duck on October 18, 2023, 12:47 pm
Edit:
Just because lots of people settle because they can't stand being alone doesn't mean I have to do it.
I think this part is best omitted, since framing her in that way could turn the conv way more confrontational.
Also it feels as complaining/resentful for feeling that social rules are being imposed on oneself.
I agree with your comment on your script.
This is helpful for me as it helped me to increase my social intelligence: not share that with people who are not close in specific situations.

Thank you Power Duck for your answer!

Quote from Power Duck on October 18, 2023, 10:52 am
Cheers John.
Personally although I agree that sometimes it's good to talk to friends about one's/men/women struggles I would avoid doing it.

Yeah, right. I did not think about it.

Let's say x has a gf and he's good with women, if he were to talk to a person that didn't knew he's good with women about the dating struggles of modern men the first thing the other person would think is that this guy got lucky with his gf (if she's pretty, if not then theyll asume he just settled with the 1st woman he got).
So if one tells anyone about x struggle, others will assume he has that problem, whether one really has that problem or not isn't that important actually, the thing is that now there's an "apparent" weakness that person has that can be exploited for social climbing.

Right.

Of course if you disagree or don't think that it applies to your case feel free to ignore or comment about it.

I think it applies to my case.

About the rest, ~~I would say it's hard to defend against it. You want to deny/minimize~~ the frame that you're picky and covertly that you're single because you're "looking out of your league".
However now that I think about it, as Kav puts it isn't a bad thing, isn't aspiring for more, growing, looking for a good partner to spend your life with and improving to get those things supposed to be something worth admiring? (I believe you've already mentioned something like this in this post) Where is most people self worth and going for what they want? Why settle for something you don't actually like just to not stand out? I think this frame can be used to shame her.

Definitely.

For example:
Her: your picky
John: what do you mean?
Her: there are not many spiritual people
John: well If I'm going to spend the rest of my life with someone I'd rather do it with someone I'm compatible with and that shares how I see the world. Just because lots of people settle because they can't stand being alone doesn't mean I have to do it.

Quote from Power Duck on October 18, 2023, 12:47 pm
Edit:
Just because lots of people settle because they can't stand being alone doesn't mean I have to do it.
I think this part is best omitted, since framing her in that way could turn the conv way more confrontational.
Also it feels as complaining/resentful for feeling that social rules are being imposed on oneself.

I agree with your comment on your script.

This is helpful for me as it helped me to increase my social intelligence: not share that with people who are not close in specific situations.

Kavalier and Power Duck have reacted to this post.

#9 · October 18, 2023, 9:12 pm

Thank you Lucio for your answer!

Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on October 18, 2023, 4:01 pm
My first thought when reading the topic's title was exactly the same as Kavalier.
And that I'd have owned it with "you bet I am".
Reading the exchange, I also thought that it may have been befitting the situation, rather than a power move.

Yeah, right.

To an audience, it may feel like a power move to have someone make a list of traits he seeks.
Imagine a woman saying:
My man must be smart, wealthy, tall, spiritual, and...
And you may think "no wonder today's dating is so , look at this woman's demands".

Yeah you're right I agree.

As usual, I wasn't there, so it may be a total power move.
Edit: indeed, only later I read that there was already a running reference in the group for "pickiness"

I think my assessment of her intentions and underlying frame is quite accurate but I could be wrong of course. I missed the opportunity with not surfacing it.

And of course that's not to say one shouldn't have a list, or be picky.
Quite the opposite.
But I personally would only share that with very few people, in some specific situations.

Alright, thanks. As I said to Power Duck this helps me to improve my social intelligence.

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#10 · October 19, 2023, 5:49 am

Quote from John Freeman on October 18, 2023, 7:07 am
Hello Kavalier,
thanks again for your answer, I think one of your strength is social finesse. Here it shows again. (Off-topic: BTW, I'm curious to know how you acquired your social skills. Maybe we could emulate you. If you feel like it of course and if you think it's explainable/teachable).
I'm answering more factually since I got the context out of the way.

Thank you, John! I feel really flattered. But the truth is that I am the one emulating you all, since I started reading the forum!

Reading the context you provided and Lucio's and Power Duck's replies makes me think you are right, it looks like a power move. Especially, as Lucio points it, with "pickness" being running reference in the group. Still, I think it's a matter of frame control when you reply with Lucio's "you bet I am" or "I have standards". They use a slightly negative word, you agree, but put a positive spin on it. Besides that, your standards have the morals on your side - you're looking for inner qualities, which cannot be compared to the woman who is picky because she wants a rich man. There's nothing wrong in looking for the best match. Though I agree with Lucio, when you list them it feels like a power move of yours (totally deserved if she was the one who made the first not so cool move, but we have to mind the audience).

I imagine it must be a pain in the ass talking to people like her. In situations like this I'd excuse myself, or if I were stuck with her, try and change the subject.

And man, it sucks to think that, being among friends, you can't share your true self and your preference without inviting power moves. I think it's a consensus among us that, in this case, it's better to be more reserved about it, as you also concluded.

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