Quote from Growfast on September 5, 2022, 1:39 am

You are looking at this from a bad mindset.

This comes off as one upping them because you assumed for whatever reason that they will one up you.

You should be interested in defending against power moves if used against you and not be shooting power moves at people.

If you do that then soon you will be the guy you talked about regarding social climbers.

Me: Let's meet at 5pm, tell me if that if that's ok with you (coming from higher power)

Him: Perfect! ("good job" judge power move)

Me: Cool! (to check and stay warm)

You started with the "tell me" power move yourself so he was perfectly right in his counter power move.

If you have more ideas, you are more than welcome!

Welcome?Really? This was a power move on us.

(Comes off as you giving us value and not a exchange of value)

Seriously dude you thought making power moves in this forum was a smart idea?

Quote from Kavalier on September 5, 2022, 6:11 am

Hmmm dunno, John. My opinion is that to try to position oneself as the leader in a group of friends is not the best idea. If there is one instance when you want to be nice and democratic and err on the side of being warm, it's with your friends. So no higher power, no authority frames, no tasking, no power moves.

I get the impression from other threads that you may be overdoing it and your friends are pushing back. If they are high value themselves, it's expected that they will fight your frame of you being leader-like.

It's great and desirable to take the initiative: with a lot of power protecting, while also being open to being led. But in the examples you are giving you are swinging in the opposite direction.

The first thing I would do is to remove altogether any kind of "you as authority" frames. Then observe if, overtime, your friends' power moves disappear. (I'm not convinced that perfect is a power move in this case). Maybe they are power moving back in order to reinstate the proper balance (I certainly would).

Quote from John Freeman on September 5, 2022, 12:34 pm

Hello guys!

Thanks for your answers!

Quote from Growfast on September 5, 2022, 1:39 am

You should be interested in defending against power moves if used against you and not be shooting power moves at people.

Yep, that's the plan. There might have been some misunderstanding here.

Me: Let's meet at 5pm, tell me if that if that's ok with you (coming from higher power)

Him: Perfect! ("good job" judge power move)

Me: Cool! (to check and stay warm)

You started with the "tell me" power move yourself so he was perfectly right in his counter power move.

I see I was not clear enough: the 3 examples I provide are exploratory responses. I did not say/nor used them. These are brainstorming ideas on how to defend when you're in a leading position, proposing something to people and they answer with a judge power move. They use it as an opportunity to social climb.

If you have more ideas, you are more than welcome!

Welcome?Really? This was a power move on us.

(Comes off as you giving us value and not a exchange of value)

Mmmh, I understand your perspective. Thanks for sharing. Even after reading what you said and thinking about it, I don't see as a power move.

I mean: "you are more than welcome to brainstorm with me!". That is, to me it's not even about giving/taking/exchanging value. In my mind it's about collaboration. I'm looking for a solution and if you are also interested it means: "let's do it together! "Actually for me, I am power-protecting with the "If", meaning: "if you want to brainstorm with me: cool, if not cool as well". I meant: "no pressure".

My intention was to experiment with another formulation of ending a post. Thanks for your feed-back!

Quote from Kavalier on September 5, 2022, 6:11 am

Hmmm dunno, John. My opinion is that to try to position oneself as the leader in a group of friends is not the best idea. If there is one instance when you want to be nice and democratic and err on the side of being warm, it's with your friends. So no higher power, no authority frames, no tasking, no power moves.

As in a conversation with Lucio, I think I am actually too democratic and this is why I get such power moves I think. When I organize something I consult them in the decision making. The way I consult them is not optimal yet. The tasking, power moves, etc. actually come from some of my friends, not from me. Hence this post to defend better. Same with nurses, the more democratic I am, the more power moves I get from the ones who are insecure.

I get the impression from other threads that you may be overdoing it and your friends are pushing back. If they are high value themselves, it's expected that they will fight your frame of you being leader-like.

Mmmh. I'm not exactly sure that is what is happening here. When I organize something and invite people, I'm in the leadership position. When they organize something and invite me, they're in the leadership position. Do you see it in any other way?

For instance, some friends when I invite them at my place sometimes behave like they are the host: ask people around if they want some drinks or other host behaviours. When I'm at their place, I behave as a helper of the host: what can I help you with? Did you have a specific seating positions in mind? What is the plan for tonight? Etc. Even if I see a flaw in the organization, I don't point to it, I do my best to cover the organizer and help him fix it without other people noticing.

It's great and desirable to take the initiative: with a lot of power protecting, while also being open to being led. But in the examples you are giving you are swinging in the opposite direction.

I'm not seeing here what you mean. We exchange on this forum only so I might talk only about difficult situations here. In real life, when we see each other, we lead and are being led in turns. Everyone is cool with it and that's my favourite way of doing it as well. As long as there is no social climbing that is. We're open to one another's suggestions.

The first thing I would do is to remove altogether any kind of "you as authority" frames. Then observe if, overtime, your friends' power moves disappear. (I'm not convinced that perfect is a power move in this case). Maybe they are power moving back in order to reinstate the proper balance (I certainly would).

What do you mean as authority frame? Can you give a specific example?

I think the hypothesis is that my friend would only do it to me, which is not the case. I witness when they do it to one another. As said in this thread, it's mostly about insecurity I think. So in these specific cases, I'm cool with following without trying to get the upper hand. However, some of them when following try to take the upper hand. There might be a power distance thing which I create by leading. However by being democratic I share the power. And when I do it or even at work when I'm being equalitarian, people play power moves on me. That's why it's annoying: I am being fair and they play these games on me (not a victim). And when it's the other way around I don't.

About this specific case, I'm not sure either that it's a power move as I wrote:

Alright, maybe I'm oversensitive on this one.

I think the best long term strategy is as Lucio said, to make my friends who are more insecure feel good about themselves. Also to be even warmer and uplifting (I'm going to be a volcano or an air balloon as compared to some people I'm already very high on this).

It's actually the same with patients: I think the people need reassurance and sometimes it takes time to find the way for the person to be reassured.

For instance, my friend never did any university studies. He never talks about it but I feel like he feels inferior to us because of that and that is the cause of the social climbing. So I must tell him again that I admire his path (I already did many times).

I'm actually thinking that at this stage, I must self-deprecate more. The style that I like the most is "the charmer". George Clooney does self-deprecate a lot. So I think that this is a good idea. I'll give an example below.

To us you represent a successful man

We were walking in the street with Bernard and JB to a bar. We were already quite drunk. And they said to me as they were kind of admitting something they held off for a long time. Out of nowhere:

Bernard + JB: To us you represent a successful man

Me (touched): Thank you guys, I'm touched.

Me: when you say that it reminds me that it's worth persevering for what you want in life. It's difficult but it's worth it.

Them: silence

Here, there was a mismatch in communication. I wanted to inspire them.

I should have said that to me as well, they represent it (which is true, each one in their own way). So I was clumsy to try to inspire them as they already put me higher. Next time I will pull them up.

For the context: I congratulate, compliment, encourage and support my friends all the time! So I was not used to get such a compliment from them as it's not their usual style. Bernard might say: "to me you're a friend" and that's like him being vulnerable with his feeling. But he does not usually say what quality he appreciates in me or this kind of stuff. So it was a surprise.

Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on September 5, 2022, 8:04 pm

Growfast's message was "strong", but when it comes to the spirit/ideas, it's good.
Same for Kavalier.

I saw nothing wrong with the "perfect" there, it was appropriate in my opinion.
I would have actually liked it: brief and to the point, saves everyone time and you already have an agreement with one single word.

As we said with Bel some time ago: if people behave high power with you, -ie.: being direct and to the point-, that may be a good sign that you have cool friends, not that they're disempowering you.
With Bel we said: focus on being high power yourself with those high power folks, and less on defending -that may seem a non-answer as sometimes the two overlap, but the mindset is different-.

Quote from Growfast on September 5, 2022, 8:09 pm

I see I was not clear enough: the 3 examples I provide are exploratory responses. I did not say/nor used them. These are brainstorming ideas on how to defend when you're in a leading position, proposing something to people and they answer with a judge power move. They use it as an opportunity to social climb.

 

They did do the whole one upping as a response to your power-move. I would have done the same power-move as them and so would you if someone used it on you.

So I don't get your hypocrisy of calling them social climbers.

(Your whole idea seems to be like stabbing people you just met assuming they will chop your hand if you extended for a handshake)

 

If you want to be a paranoid guy who makes unprovoked power-moves assuming everyone wants to social climb then it's your choice.

Just expect push-back from people and not be considered a pleasant person to be around with.

 

Go into social situations assuming the positive and only when they take digs at you defend yourself. Don't be a cynical guy.

Mmmh, I understand your perspective. Thanks for sharing. Even after reading what you said and thinking about it, I don't see as a power move.

I mean: "you are more than welcome to brainstorm with me!". That is, to me it's not even about giving/taking/exchanging value. In my mind it's about collaboration.

 

Doesn't come off as you looking for collaboration. Comes off as trying too hard to act superior.

 

Take my feedback or leave it. I don't want to have anymore discussions on the threads you will start from here on after.

 

Good luck.

Quote from John Freeman on September 5, 2022, 8:24 pm

Hey Growfast,

I'm trying to understand what you mean. I don't see where is my power move if I propose them different hosting solutions with the different prices where they can find what is affordable for them and if they prefer central or not central. I might lack power awareness, that could be the case.

I want to understand your point of view and I sincerely think there is a misunderstanding here. I admitted I might have been oversensitive on this one. I'm interested in your feedback, I would like to understand it first.

Doesn't come off as you looking for collaboration. Comes off as trying too hard to act superior.

Yeah, when I wrote that, I knew it was a risk. I should have written this thread in my own journal as the initial goal was self-reflection, hence the experimental ending and the tone of the thread. So it was clumsy from me. My initial intention was not to make it an open thread and then I changed my mind at the end as I thought that it was something that could be shared. BTW , I totally admit I have tons to do to improve my mindset. I also think there was a miscommunication from my part in the form of the thread.

Alright, I respect you not wanting anymore to discuss on the threads I write. To me it's a bit sad as I did my best to answer you to the best of my abilities from my perspective.

We all have different perspectives and limitations, to me it's important to communicate despite them.

I also might still be a bit paranoid through my previous experiences which might still have left me on the defensive. And could unconsicously provoke it (as I'm trying to understand what is happening).

Thank you very much anyway as all of what you wrote is food for thoughts and I'm going to reflect on it. If you want to clarify what happened through another mean of communication (email, phone), I'm more than open to it.

Excuse me if I offended you in any shape or form.

Sincerely,

John

Quote from Kavalier on September 6, 2022, 3:46 pm

Hello, John. Now rereading my post after Lucio's feedback, it does sound a bit strong. Not my intention at all, I apologize for that.

I did understand that your examples were exploratory. It's just in these examples that I think it's swinging in the opposite directions.

When I say that maybe you might be  overdoing it, I mean very small things, but that may add up. It was also just a hypothesis worth investigating. In the forum you often talk about being the leader of your social group. The thing with frames like this is that, if you internalise them, you may act in a way that your friends perceive as "higher up/better than them" and it becomes difficult to point out a specific thing that you do.

For example, in that "perfect" thread you were being dubbed the gentil organisateur by your friends. In addition to this being a power move, it may also mean that you come accross as administrating a few too many things from their perspective. The from their perspective is important, because there's culture involved. For example, you administrate whatsapp groups. Here we don't do this, we share admin. You are also dealing with French expats who are leftists (so double challenge here: nationality and worldviews. Leftists tend to take a more egalitarian approach to things).

My take is that, if you come accross as jumping too often at the chance of organising things, and end up administrating things that don't need administration in their eyes, you might invite pushback. In any case it's the culture of the group that counts.

Quote from John Freeman on September 6, 2022, 6:02 pm

Hello Kavalier,

it's all good.

Quote from Kavalier on September 6, 2022, 3:46 pm

I did understand that your examples were exploratory. It's just in these examples that I think it's swinging in the opposite directions.

Yes you did, I meant this for Growfast.

Thanks a lot for your answers, Lucio and Kavalier. I reflected on everything that everyone wrote here (golden nuggets) and here is where I'm at.

@lucio

As said somewhere else, what you wrote helped me see this "Perfect" through a different perspective. I can now better understand how it can be thought by other people.

Regarding the high-power mindset vs defensive mindset: Yes, now I understand the difference in terms of mindset. I will definitely focus on that from now on.

@kavalier

Here is what I think I was doing wrong.

Mindset

I think equality is a good thing.

I also talked about previous experiences, here they are:

1. Abuse from manipulators/narcissists: I don't think this plays a huge role here. I think it does play a small role, though
2. Previous experience in leadership situations:
   1. When I was the president of an association for organising conferences for students, I went the democratic way as it is my default. I saw that when I let others make decisions and I knew it would have been better otherwise, I let it go. At this time I was not assertive enough so I could not properly defend my ideas.
   2. When travelling I go to hostels and build naturally a group, same as above: sometimes I knew that the proposition/decision made was worse for the group and I let it go. Later, it proved to be right and it goes back to a previous post by Lucio when the leader did not stand up when confronted. Therefore, the whole group was worse.

Now, thanks to feed-back here, I know that what calls for authoritarian vs democratic has also to do with the task at hand or effectiveness. So each decision calls for a different style. Asking 5 people to write a text together makes little sense. Asking 5 people what restaurant they want to go to makes sense.

So the previous experiences in "2." left me thinking that I must have a "stronger hand". I now changed my mind as it is more about assertiveness, persuasion and finding the right decision for the group at the "T time". I already practice and internalised not to lead if I'm not in leadership ability (knowledge, experience, etc.) and would therefore not lead if that would not conduce to the well-being of the group.

Based on "2." as well, that is why I don't share admin rights in some (not all) WhatsApp group: people change the name and do whatever. I do share the admin rights when it's best for the group (the group for our paediatrics exam for instance, so everyone could invite new people).

I also had the false assumption that I only witness bad decisions for the group. Of course, I made plenty of bad decisions myself, sometimes I've been corrected, sometimes not. So humility could help here.

Based on "1.", as Growfast said, I was sometimes wrongly expecting power moves because of my previous experiences and was on the defensive. This happened to me a few years ago when I had trouble to integrate in a group at work, because I had been hurt in my previous work experience or by some of the people at work. So here observation and nuance is needed.

Strategies

I think one of the root causes is that I was making a leadership mistake. That is, I sometimes go the democratic route when authoritarian (in a good sense, meaning making the decision without majority/consensus) is warranted and go the authoritarian route when democratic is warranted.

So these are also social mistakes. This could also come from a mistake of  context where leadership in a social group is not the same as leadership at work. There are other subtleties of course.

To answer you directly, as I said I reflected on what you said. I'm going to observe their behaviour and mine and not act on anything. Also I view myself as the leader since I created the group. At the beginning I was the one organising everything and a few months ago, I realised I was overdoing it and stepped back. That's the expanding my social circle phase. So now they also organise more events, so it's more evenly distributed. Also, now the group is created so I don't need to put so much energy in putting people together. I'm aware that my friends are also part of other groups and that they may be leaders there.

Why is leadership so important to me? I've seen too many times in many groups, turkey behaviour, negative behaviour, gossiping, etc. So my first goal is to create a positive, "let's pull everyone up" kind of vibe. What I found that in my experience, and my view could be wrong, is that if I don't do it, others won't. However, now thanks to you, I see that I don't have to see myself as "the leader" to create such positive atmosphere.

Also me trying to put myself higher in the past (I take responsibility for it) I think it was part of the learning process of power. Since your feed-back sometime ago about equality in a group of friends, I toned it back. I think I was also doing it because in the past, I let myself step over in groups despite showing initiative and positivity, not having the skills to defend. So I might have gone too far in the power direction.

About the culture of the group, at first when Anthony the nasty social climber was part of the group, there were lots of nasty comments between people. So I had to influence the group to remove this and make it more positive. I told them what I noticed as well as they were not aware of this (it was the culture of the group).

Thank you very much, as you saw there were several aspects I was not aware of. It was not that easy for me to understand what was going on.

Techniques (ideas)

Authoritarian: assessing if democratic is needed or effectiveness is needed for the situation. If making a decision for the group, ask: "are you alright with it?". To be used sparsely in a group of friend.

Democratic: when proposing something, propose 2-3 choices and ask for a vote to make it clean. Make the choice as easy to make as possible. "Restaurant has this type of food, it's closer and cheap, Restaurant 2 has this type of food, it's far and expensive, Restaurant 3 has this type of food, is close and expensive." Default style in a group of friend.

Update
My favourite style is actually servant leadership, however it's not really appropriate in a group of friends.

Update 2

For more context: Among my group of close French friends: 2 are liberals and 1 is leftist. The power moves I was referring to come from 1 of my liberal friend. The friend pushing back the most is this one (liberal as within the limitations of label).

In my experience, French culture is less equalitarian than Swiss culture. They are more dominant, assertive and extrovert (do this, give me that) than Swiss people  whereas we take tons of precautions to ask things to people (could you please pass me) as an example. Before making a decision, we usually consult everyone and we make decision based on consensus. That's why some French people sometimes think we are "soft". They are often more assertive and not afraid to make decision for the whole group without consensus whereas it's more frequent in Switzerland to ask for majority/consensus.