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Being challenged by a subordinate as a new leader

#1 · June 8, 2023, 11:13 pm

Quote from John Freeman on June 8, 2023, 11:13 pm
Hello everyone,

Yep. I'm this classical case right now. I started my new job as an attending physician 1 month ago in a small hospital. My supervisors are very happy with me and I got great feed-back, from the head of service today as well. She said that I adapted well to the role. I thanked her and told her that I came there to work specifically with this team of supervisors, which is the truth.

There are 7 residents which I'm responsible to teach, supervise and evaluate.

My previous message was that I was challenge by 2 residents in my authority. Now it's only 1. The other recognised my authority. I don't know if it's because of my attitude, positive and supportive attitude towards her (fact) or because I checked her power moves. Anyway, now there's just one.

I have to say that for her experience she's excellent at her job. She performs well, is effective, learns fast, so far soo good. She's also an agreeable and warm person.

However, she has been triangulating quite a bit, excluding me out of the communication loop of patient care and been interrupting me when I was speaking in meetings and in front of parents. I'm not even talking about the tasking or telling me that she's going to do something I did not (for instance because it was next on my task list and she did it before I could). So a lot of power moves. This has been going many times, already.

Also, she's playing "go to sleep/flattering games". Like we were talking about something that was her idea and she knew it. She noticed I had not thought about it. I said yes we should do that. She goes: "that's a great idea". So she's very smart and knows how to play smart people, like our head physicians. Not trying to give myself compliment here, I mean: she's good at oversmarting people equally or more educated than her. She's also good at the "liking" influence type like telling our bosses how she's "like them" (in subtle ways).

Despite her being a great employee, I find her to be over-confident and a bit arrogant. She's not the humble type. She's also very much power aware.

Today I talked with the head physician (1 level above me, 2 levels above her) to ask for advice and he gave me the advice to talk to her directly. I totally agree. So I talked to her today.

I tell her that the interruptions (that she did again in front of parents 3 min before this conversation) are not respectful nor polite (summarising here). She says that since "I'm the chief", blablaba. She's trying to reframe that I want to be respected as a chief. That is true but I first and foremost want to be respected as a person. So I stay with the frame of respect and politeness. She says she did not realize says she's going to be careful. But does not apologise.

Then, I tell her about the triangulating and excluding me out of the communication loop. For instance, she tells the nurse, our head physician but not me (her direct superior) relevant and important new information about patient care. So she bypassed me and did this a few times. She comes with the excuse that it takes time. I say it's the hospital and we do spend a lot of time of communication. I give her examples when we both were not informed by physiotherapists and how it made us feel: disrespected. I also tell her that we all do communication mistakes and I give her a couple of examples from mine of the very day of the same sort.

She says she's going to make an effort. Then I do pull instinctively a power move: "I'm certain of it". She pulls her own: "no worries".

After that, I thought about it. I thought: the last power move was a bit under-the-belt. I regret it a bit. However, I realize I pulled it out of self-defense as she did not formally nor informally apologised. She was also a lot on the defensive when I was telling her what happened. So I did not feel like it was an open-heart exchange.

So I sent her a text afterwards with what I think was more diplomatic and what I should have expressed on the spot:

Me: "Thank you Caroline"

Her: "Sorry again if you felt out of the loop, it was not my intention at all!"

Me: "It's all good, it happens, I'm happy we could communicate"

So basically, I go back to collaborative. She plays the power move from "Spread": "I can make you feel excluded". So major power move. "It was not my intention" is also in this context: "I could hurt you and not even been doing it on purpose". There is an excuse here (Sorry) but it feels like a token excuse to me. The most important part is "sorry if you felt" which frames me as thin skinned. I did the same here (and learned from it so I don't do it again of course) so it's interesting to be on the receiving end of it.

I go with forgiveness and play a small judge-y power move "I'm happy" and underlines the collaborative part.

To me, I feel I'm getting into advanced (it feels advanced to me) power situations now. As I have to deal with several levels of power players: above and below. People above rarely pull power move. They do sometimes bypass us (the layer below them) but we cannot say anything for now. We're a small team and I have to discuss with my peers first to figure out what is happening and how to deal with it. They felt the same regarding our superiors. However, Caroline has been putting everyone to sleep with her efficiency and performance.

She's the golden child and I'm the new guy. They think I'm good and I have potential. People like me but I'm still the new guy and she's been there for 6 months. My head physician said: "she's going to be a great physician". The golden child. So I have to be careful. She's going to be there for 5 more months and me for 11 but still. I want now to deal properly with these power dynamics.

So to me despite her qualities, she's a major power player.

This is where I arrived with my current knowledge and skills. I'm eager to know if you guys have any comment on this situation. I'm sure I could handle it better.

I know she's trying to show she can do the job better than I do. That there is some kind of underlying competition and she plays a lot of conversational power moves which I don't always check. Like basically I work for her. She does what I say but it feels like she does it in order not to get in trouble. She does it to get to her goal. So good for her. However, to me she's too machiavellian and I don't trust her as a person.

Hello everyone,

Yep. I'm this classical case right now. I started my new job as an attending physician 1 month ago in a small hospital. My supervisors are very happy with me and I got great feed-back, from the head of service today as well. She said that I adapted well to the role. I thanked her and told her that I came there to work specifically with this team of supervisors, which is the truth.

There are 7 residents which I'm responsible to teach, supervise and evaluate.

My previous message was that I was challenge by 2 residents in my authority. Now it's only 1. The other recognised my authority. I don't know if it's because of my attitude, positive and supportive attitude towards her (fact) or because I checked her power moves. Anyway, now there's just one.

I have to say that for her experience she's excellent at her job. She performs well, is effective, learns fast, so far soo good. She's also an agreeable and warm person.

However, she has been triangulating quite a bit, excluding me out of the communication loop of patient care and been interrupting me when I was speaking in meetings and in front of parents. I'm not even talking about the tasking or telling me that she's going to do something I did not (for instance because it was next on my task list and she did it before I could). So a lot of power moves. This has been going many times, already.

Also, she's playing "go to sleep/flattering games". Like we were talking about something that was her idea and she knew it. She noticed I had not thought about it. I said yes we should do that. She goes: "that's a great idea". So she's very smart and knows how to play smart people, like our head physicians. Not trying to give myself compliment here, I mean: she's good at oversmarting people equally or more educated than her. She's also good at the "liking" influence type like telling our bosses how she's "like them" (in subtle ways).

Despite her being a great employee, I find her to be over-confident and a bit arrogant. She's not the humble type. She's also very much power aware.

Today I talked with the head physician (1 level above me, 2 levels above her) to ask for advice and he gave me the advice to talk to her directly. I totally agree. So I talked to her today.

I tell her that the interruptions (that she did again in front of parents 3 min before this conversation) are not respectful nor polite (summarising here). She says that since "I'm the chief", blablaba. She's trying to reframe that I want to be respected as a chief. That is true but I first and foremost want to be respected as a person. So I stay with the frame of respect and politeness. She says she did not realize says she's going to be careful. But does not apologise.

Then, I tell her about the triangulating and excluding me out of the communication loop. For instance, she tells the nurse, our head physician but not me (her direct superior) relevant and important new information about patient care. So she bypassed me and did this a few times. She comes with the excuse that it takes time. I say it's the hospital and we do spend a lot of time of communication. I give her examples when we both were not informed by physiotherapists and how it made us feel: disrespected. I also tell her that we all do communication mistakes and I give her a couple of examples from mine of the very day of the same sort.

She says she's going to make an effort. Then I do pull instinctively a power move: "I'm certain of it". She pulls her own: "no worries".

After that, I thought about it. I thought: the last power move was a bit under-the-belt. I regret it a bit. However, I realize I pulled it out of self-defense as she did not formally nor informally apologised. She was also a lot on the defensive when I was telling her what happened. So I did not feel like it was an open-heart exchange.

So I sent her a text afterwards with what I think was more diplomatic and what I should have expressed on the spot:

Me: "Thank you Caroline"

Her: "Sorry again if you felt out of the loop, it was not my intention at all!"

Me: "It's all good, it happens, I'm happy we could communicate"

So basically, I go back to collaborative. She plays the power move from "Spread": "I can make you feel excluded". So major power move. "It was not my intention" is also in this context: "I could hurt you and not even been doing it on purpose". There is an excuse here (Sorry) but it feels like a token excuse to me. The most important part is "sorry if you felt" which frames me as thin skinned. I did the same here (and learned from it so I don't do it again of course) so it's interesting to be on the receiving end of it.

I go with forgiveness and play a small judge-y power move "I'm happy" and underlines the collaborative part.

To me, I feel I'm getting into advanced (it feels advanced to me) power situations now. As I have to deal with several levels of power players: above and below. People above rarely pull power move. They do sometimes bypass us (the layer below them) but we cannot say anything for now. We're a small team and I have to discuss with my peers first to figure out what is happening and how to deal with it. They felt the same regarding our superiors. However, Caroline has been putting everyone to sleep with her efficiency and performance.

She's the golden child and I'm the new guy. They think I'm good and I have potential. People like me but I'm still the new guy and she's been there for 6 months. My head physician said: "she's going to be a great physician". The golden child. So I have to be careful. She's going to be there for 5 more months and me for 11 but still. I want now to deal properly with these power dynamics.

So to me despite her qualities, she's a major power player.

This is where I arrived with my current knowledge and skills. I'm eager to know if you guys have any comment on this situation. I'm sure I could handle it better.

I know she's trying to show she can do the job better than I do. That there is some kind of underlying competition and she plays a lot of conversational power moves which I don't always check. Like basically I work for her. She does what I say but it feels like she does it in order not to get in trouble. She does it to get to her goal. So good for her. However, to me she's too machiavellian and I don't trust her as a person.

Roberto has reacted to this post.

#2 · June 9, 2023, 8:49 pm

Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on June 9, 2023, 8:49 pm
Great case study, John!

And BTW, great going.

Happy to read you're doing well, are learning a lot, and only have one trouble-person left.

So the overall message is: GREAT!

Now, I'm going to focus exclusively on what I felt were possible areas for improvement for maximum ROI.

Analysis

What stood out to me:

Better avoid asking for managerial advice from your superiors:

the sub-communication for you is not good.

Ie.: some issues managing the team, which is TOTALY normal, but still something you may want to keep from them).

And I see no real upside.
You're still discussing general human-related issues, so it's not like they got specific knowledge to share.
You won't get any better response than, say, ChatGPT

Address the "since you're the chief":

"She says that since "I'm the chief", blablaba. She's trying to reframe that I want to be respected as a chief." +

Yeah, great call!

That's what she was trying to do, not cool.

I'd have addressed that:

You: It's not about being the chief, it's about proper communication

THE POWER DYNAMICS HERE ARE INVERTED : SHE PULLED A POWER MOVE FIRST

I think you may have underestimated her social manipulation.

Quoting here:

She says she's going to make an effort. Then I do pull instinctively a power move: "I'm certain of it". She pulls her own: "no worries".

It's not YOU who pulled a power move.

The biggest (covert) power move was earlier, FROM HER.

Think about the sub-communication: she makes an effort, not that she's going to change.

If the effort fails, then what?
Well, she just "tried"... There are no consequences when one "makes an effort".

The implication of "makign an effort" is that she got "random feedback", and not a request from her superior to change behavior.

The mindset is:

F*ck her effort, she HAS to implement the requested changes.

There's a million of options here, from "pulling rank", to a role-play one:

Her: I'm going to make an effort
You: Imagine a mother and customer walks in and asks to visit her child.
I reply "I'm going to make an effort". What is she going to think of me? That I'm a professional who takes care of things, or that I'm a wishy-washy not be to trusted?
Exactly. Don't make an effort, I expect you to just do it

"No worries" is a "turn the power tables" power move

Her "no worries" after...

YET ANOTHER POWER MOVE (and considering what came first, a dark orange one).

And it sealed and cemented the frame to her own convenience.

Think about it, now the frame is that SHE is granting you pardon.

Avoid follow-up texts with reports (as a general rule)

Especially if it was after a not-so-good event.
It's chase-y, can sub-communicate you were thinking about it (over-investing).

If you must, talk in person the next time.

Very manipulative person: danger (and what a blessing: great learning!)

I'll stop for now but the picture I got is:

You're absolutely right.

She is a major power mover.

And I think she's maybe even worst than you may think.

A "natural" at it, a gaslighter, and I'd put her in the "possible danger" category.

I wouldn't send her any more texts unless strictly about patients (and something tells me Bel may approve :D).

But it's great for learning.

Five more months for her?
Great, 5 months of learning!

Options

Some possible approaches:

Go higher power with a "yes, I'm the boss" frame and attitude

Check every single power move going forward

Keep her at arm's length, only check leadership challenges in front of others, minimize contact and involvement

Option #3 can be the safest, but has the least learning, so I wouldn't do it (and for full disclosure: I'm biased as I also want to learn vicariously).

Thoughts?

Happy to read different opinions, if any.

Great case study, John!

And BTW, great going.

Happy to read you're doing well, are learning a lot, and only have one trouble-person left.

So the overall message is: GREAT!

Now, I'm going to focus exclusively on what I felt were possible areas for improvement for maximum ROI.

Analysis

What stood out to me:

Better avoid asking for managerial advice from your superiors:

the sub-communication for you is not good.

Ie.: some issues managing the team, which is TOTALY normal, but still something you may want to keep from them).

And I see no real upside.
You're still discussing general human-related issues, so it's not like they got specific knowledge to share.
You won't get any better response than, say, ChatGPT

Address the "since you're the chief":

"She says that since "I'm the chief", blablaba. She's trying to reframe that I want to be respected as a chief." +

Yeah, great call!

That's what she was trying to do, not cool.

I'd have addressed that:

You: It's not about being the chief, it's about proper communication

THE POWER DYNAMICS HERE ARE INVERTED : SHE PULLED A POWER MOVE FIRST

I think you may have underestimated her social manipulation.

Quoting here:

She says she's going to make an effort. Then I do pull instinctively a power move: "I'm certain of it". She pulls her own: "no worries".

It's not YOU who pulled a power move.

The biggest (covert) power move was earlier, FROM HER.

Think about the sub-communication: she makes an effort, not that she's going to change.

If the effort fails, then what?
Well, she just "tried"... There are no consequences when one "makes an effort".

The implication of "makign an effort" is that she got "random feedback", and not a request from her superior to change behavior.

The mindset is:

F*ck her effort, she HAS to implement the requested changes.

There's a million of options here, from "pulling rank", to a role-play one:

Her: I'm going to make an effort
You: Imagine a mother and customer walks in and asks to visit her child.
I reply "I'm going to make an effort". What is she going to think of me? That I'm a professional who takes care of things, or that I'm a wishy-washy not be to trusted?
Exactly. Don't make an effort, I expect you to just do it

"No worries" is a "turn the power tables" power move

Her "no worries" after...

YET ANOTHER POWER MOVE (and considering what came first, a dark orange one).

And it sealed and cemented the frame to her own convenience.

Think about it, now the frame is that SHE is granting you pardon.

Avoid follow-up texts with reports (as a general rule)

Especially if it was after a not-so-good event.
It's chase-y, can sub-communicate you were thinking about it (over-investing).

If you must, talk in person the next time.

Very manipulative person: danger (and what a blessing: great learning!)

I'll stop for now but the picture I got is:

You're absolutely right.

She is a major power mover.

And I think she's maybe even worst than you may think.

A "natural" at it, a gaslighter, and I'd put her in the "possible danger" category.

I wouldn't send her any more texts unless strictly about patients (and something tells me Bel may approve :D).

But it's great for learning.

Five more months for her?
Great, 5 months of learning!

Options

Some possible approaches:

Go higher power with a "yes, I'm the boss" frame and attitude
Check every single power move going forward
Keep her at arm's length, only check leadership challenges in front of others, minimize contact and involvement

Option #3 can be the safest, but has the least learning, so I wouldn't do it (and for full disclosure: I'm biased as I also want to learn vicariously).

Thoughts?

Happy to read different opinions, if any.

John Freeman, Kavalier and 2 other users have reacted to this post.

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#3 · June 9, 2023, 10:47 pm

Golden golden golden. Thank you very very much.

I prefer a short answer now that I read it to avoid the « late answer syndrome » out of respect. And to say that I’ll answer more in depth later when in the capacity to so. I’m experimenting with this new way of communicating here.

Thanks again!

Lucio Buffalmano, Kavalier and Roberto have reacted to this post.

#4 · June 14, 2023, 12:33 pm

Quote from John Freeman on June 14, 2023, 12:33 pm

Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on June 9, 2023, 8:49 pm

Great case study, John!

And BTW, great going.

Happy to read you're doing well, are learning a lot, and only have one trouble-person left.

So the overall message is: GREAT!

Thank you!

Now, I'm going to focus exclusively on what I felt were possible areas for improvement for maximum ROI.

Analysis

What stood out to me:

Better avoid asking for managerial advice from your superiors:

the sub-communication for you is not good.

Ie.: some issues managing the team, which is TOTALY normal, but still something you may want to keep from them).

And I see no real upside.
You're still discussing general human-related issues, so it's not like they got specific knowledge to share.
You won't get any better response than, say, ChatGPT

I agree, thanks!

Address the "since you're the chief":

"She says that since "I'm the chief", blablaba. She's trying to reframe that I want to be respected as a chief." +

Yeah, great call!

That's what she was trying to do, not cool.

I'd have addressed that:

You: It's not about being the chief, it's about proper communication

I agree, thanks! It's better than my answer. Reframe around communication so I cannot be framed at trying to one-up her with a "holier than thou" frame. Staying practical and matter of fact.

THE POWER DYNAMICS HERE ARE INVERTED : SHE PULLED A POWER MOVE FIRST

I think you may have underestimated her social manipulation.

Thanks, I agree.

Quoting here:

She says she's going to make an effort. Then I do pull instinctively a power move: "I'm certain of it". She pulls her own: "no worries".

It's not YOU who pulled a power move.

The biggest (covert) power move was earlier, FROM HER.

Think about the sub-communication: she makes an effort, not that she's going to change.

If the effort fails, then what?
Well, she just "tried"... There are no consequences when one "makes an effort".

The implication of "makign an effort" is that she got "random feedback", and not a request from her superior to change behavior.

The mindset is:

F*ck her effort, she HAS to implement the requested changes.

There's a million of options here, from "pulling rank", to a role-play one:

Her: I'm going to make an effort
You: Imagine a mother and customer walks in and asks to visit her child.
I reply "I'm going to make an effort". What is she going to think of me? That I'm a professional who takes care of things, or that I'm a wishy-washy not be to trusted?
Exactly. Don't make an effort, I expect you to just do it

Golden. Thanks!

"No worries" is a "turn the power tables" power move

Her "no worries" after...

YET ANOTHER POWER MOVE (and considering what came first, a dark orange one).

And it sealed and cemented the frame to her own convenience.

Think about it, now the frame is that SHE is granting you pardon.

Avoid follow-up texts with reports (as a general rule)

Especially if it was after a not-so-good event.
It's chase-y, can sub-communicate you were thinking about it (over-investing).

If you must, talk in person the next time.

Yes, very true. As I wrote somewhere else this is still my problems: over-investment with people of lower power/lower status (or with anyone for that matters) so it actually brings me down if I give them too much importance (in my own mind as well). So I'm working on this over-investment issue. Even more, when you'll learn that to talk to her I waited until she was on her way to leave the hospital. I did this so no one was around and she did not have to justify to other co-workers why I took her aside for a talk. I created a situation when no one was around when I asked her to talk with her. I think that tactic was good. However, I chased her physically and in terms of power dynamics. So a no-no. I think it's also part of being a leader who's a beginner: I'm afraid to be authoritative still when unsure it's called for. The worst for a leader is to lose his team's respect therefore influence over them. And then they only obey through rank (it works though). Not the best though.

I want and do my best to lead from the front. However, if one is over-investing with subordinates it subcommunicates: my time and energy and knowledge are not that valuable. One can give too much and 1. it's not appreciated anymore (frequency: new normal) 2. it loses its intrinsic value (abundance).

Very manipulative person: danger (and what a blessing: great learning!)

I'll stop for now but the picture I got is:

You're absolutely right.

She is a major power mover.

And I think she's maybe even worst than you may think.

A "natural" at it, a gaslighter, and I'd put her in the "possible danger" category.

Yes, when I confronted her I could feel in the interaction that she was evasive so it's a sign of gaslighting. She was not owning to her actions and the whole feel of the interaction felt like I was talking to a manipulative person. I know she will comply with me but only because I have power over her. She does respect me for my experience but it's not because of this that she will do what I say. She will do what I say because otherwise it has consequence for her and her reputation. So thank you for opening my eyes on her.

I wouldn't send her any more texts unless strictly about patients (and something tells me Bel may approve :D).

But it's great for learning.

Five more months for her?
Great, 5 months of learning!

Yes, great mindset. Not always easy to go from complaining to learner mindset but worth it.

Options

Some possible approaches:

Go higher power with a "yes, I'm the boss" frame and attitude

Check every single power move going forward

Keep her at arm's length, only check leadership challenges in front of others, minimize contact and involvement

Option #3 can be the safest, but has the least learning, so I wouldn't do it (and for full disclosure: I'm biased as I also want to learn vicariously).

Great options! What I put in bold is to me the best default tactics with her and power movers we identify I think. I also agree that it's the best learning situation. BTW, since we had this conversation with her, no more power move yet but they'll be coming for sure as it's part of her personality structure I believe.

So I think it's a great situation to learn from I agree with you and I'm grateful for the time you took to answer me.

Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on June 9, 2023, 8:49 pm

Great case study, John!

And BTW, great going.

Happy to read you're doing well, are learning a lot, and only have one trouble-person left.

So the overall message is: GREAT!

Thank you!

Now, I'm going to focus exclusively on what I felt were possible areas for improvement for maximum ROI.

Analysis

What stood out to me:

Better avoid asking for managerial advice from your superiors:

the sub-communication for you is not good.

Ie.: some issues managing the team, which is TOTALY normal, but still something you may want to keep from them).

And I see no real upside.
You're still discussing general human-related issues, so it's not like they got specific knowledge to share.
You won't get any better response than, say, ChatGPT

I agree, thanks!

Address the "since you're the chief":

"She says that since "I'm the chief", blablaba. She's trying to reframe that I want to be respected as a chief." +

Yeah, great call!

That's what she was trying to do, not cool.

I'd have addressed that:

You: It's not about being the chief, it's about proper communication

I agree, thanks! It's better than my answer. Reframe around communication so I cannot be framed at trying to one-up her with a "holier than thou" frame. Staying practical and matter of fact.

THE POWER DYNAMICS HERE ARE INVERTED : SHE PULLED A POWER MOVE FIRST

I think you may have underestimated her social manipulation.

Thanks, I agree.

Quoting here:

She says she's going to make an effort. Then I do pull instinctively a power move: "I'm certain of it". She pulls her own: "no worries".

It's not YOU who pulled a power move.

The biggest (covert) power move was earlier, FROM HER.

Think about the sub-communication: she makes an effort, not that she's going to change.

If the effort fails, then what?
Well, she just "tried"... There are no consequences when one "makes an effort".

The implication of "makign an effort" is that she got "random feedback", and not a request from her superior to change behavior.

The mindset is:

F*ck her effort, she HAS to implement the requested changes.

There's a million of options here, from "pulling rank", to a role-play one:

Her: I'm going to make an effort
You: Imagine a mother and customer walks in and asks to visit her child.
I reply "I'm going to make an effort". What is she going to think of me? That I'm a professional who takes care of things, or that I'm a wishy-washy not be to trusted?
Exactly. Don't make an effort, I expect you to just do it

Golden. Thanks!

"No worries" is a "turn the power tables" power move

Her "no worries" after...

YET ANOTHER POWER MOVE (and considering what came first, a dark orange one).

And it sealed and cemented the frame to her own convenience.

Think about it, now the frame is that SHE is granting you pardon.

Avoid follow-up texts with reports (as a general rule)

Especially if it was after a not-so-good event.
It's chase-y, can sub-communicate you were thinking about it (over-investing).

If you must, talk in person the next time.

Yes, very true. As I wrote somewhere else this is still my problems: over-investment with people of lower power/lower status (or with anyone for that matters) so it actually brings me down if I give them too much importance (in my own mind as well). So I'm working on this over-investment issue. Even more, when you'll learn that to talk to her I waited until she was on her way to leave the hospital. I did this so no one was around and she did not have to justify to other co-workers why I took her aside for a talk. I created a situation when no one was around when I asked her to talk with her. I think that tactic was good. However, I chased her physically and in terms of power dynamics. So a no-no. I think it's also part of being a leader who's a beginner: I'm afraid to be authoritative still when unsure it's called for. The worst for a leader is to lose his team's respect therefore influence over them. And then they only obey through rank (it works though). Not the best though.

I want and do my best to lead from the front. However, if one is over-investing with subordinates it subcommunicates: my time and energy and knowledge are not that valuable. One can give too much and 1. it's not appreciated anymore (frequency: new normal) 2. it loses its intrinsic value (abundance).

Very manipulative person: danger (and what a blessing: great learning!)

I'll stop for now but the picture I got is:

You're absolutely right.

She is a major power mover.

And I think she's maybe even worst than you may think.

A "natural" at it, a gaslighter, and I'd put her in the "possible danger" category.

Yes, when I confronted her I could feel in the interaction that she was evasive so it's a sign of gaslighting. She was not owning to her actions and the whole feel of the interaction felt like I was talking to a manipulative person. I know she will comply with me but only because I have power over her. She does respect me for my experience but it's not because of this that she will do what I say. She will do what I say because otherwise it has consequence for her and her reputation. So thank you for opening my eyes on her.

I wouldn't send her any more texts unless strictly about patients (and something tells me Bel may approve :D).

But it's great for learning.

Five more months for her?
Great, 5 months of learning!

Yes, great mindset. Not always easy to go from complaining to learner mindset but worth it.

Options

Some possible approaches:

Go higher power with a "yes, I'm the boss" frame and attitude

Check every single power move going forward

Keep her at arm's length, only check leadership challenges in front of others, minimize contact and involvement

Option #3 can be the safest, but has the least learning, so I wouldn't do it (and for full disclosure: I'm biased as I also want to learn vicariously).

Great options! What I put in bold is to me the best default tactics with her and power movers we identify I think. I also agree that it's the best learning situation. BTW, since we had this conversation with her, no more power move yet but they'll be coming for sure as it's part of her personality structure I believe.

So I think it's a great situation to learn from I agree with you and I'm grateful for the time you took to answer me.

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#5 · June 14, 2023, 12:56 pm

Quote from John Freeman on June 14, 2023, 12:56 pm
I write other ideas in this separate post for clarity.

In this case, the attitude of residents with us attending is also enabled by our superiors. If level 3 is giving orders to level 1, bypassing level 2 it sends the signal: "I don't need this guy" and it enables the residents to bypass us since they were giving the unsaid permission by level 3.

Regarding observation of orange/red flags, I want to share this one with you that is coming from a HR guy (training session last week): "when there's a doubt there is no doubt". It goes with your observation Lucio: if someone plays power moves on the little things, it paints a pattern of personality of the person. He meant that if you're doubting if someone is not a good fit, it means this person is not a good fit. It's not perfect but it's a workable heuristics. It helps to trust our gut feelings and put the person in situation/test her. For instance by giving this person power over us and see how this person reacts.

Also, generally speaking I must come with a strategy with each one of my 4 bosses to gain their trust. Generally speaking I realize it is about communicating more with them. I thought they were happy with me not bothering them. However, it leaves them in the dark. If I call and just give an update, ask a question, it gives them the sense that they're in control (which they are). If there is silence they don't know what is happening. So as a new leader I'm better off to err on the side of over communicating. They will correct me with them. Being confident while over communicating is also not the same as being unconfident and over communicating. Also if I show that I reflected and looked for solutions first before calling them they will not think of me of being not enough self-reliant.

Also, I want to say that she was able to "put the chiefs to sleep" with her good performance. I think so far I'm the only one who noticed these things about her. My colleagues think she's awesome and is going to be a great doctor. I agree with the last part. She's been trying to put me to sleep as well but I'm making sure I'm staying well awake and not let her stroke my ego. Then she will have power over me since I would feel good through her. What I actually did with my former bosses: "make them feel like kings but only through you". So emotional distance is warranted. "What a great idea boss!" -> warning sign.

I'm personally deferent to my bosses: "I'll do that" or "I'm on it". However it's to highlight that I'm their subordinate, that I'm aware of it and that I behave accordingly. Not in a manipulative attempt. The idea is to communicate: "I'm your subordinate, I get it an do my best to behave as such". Basically, doing my best to be a good follower.

I know I wrote a lot today. Difficult for me to spread my posts here over time as I basically have enough energy to write here only on my days off most of the times.

I write other ideas in this separate post for clarity.

In this case, the attitude of residents with us attending is also enabled by our superiors. If level 3 is giving orders to level 1, bypassing level 2 it sends the signal: "I don't need this guy" and it enables the residents to bypass us since they were giving the unsaid permission by level 3.

Regarding observation of orange/red flags, I want to share this one with you that is coming from a HR guy (training session last week): "when there's a doubt there is no doubt". It goes with your observation Lucio: if someone plays power moves on the little things, it paints a pattern of personality of the person. He meant that if you're doubting if someone is not a good fit, it means this person is not a good fit. It's not perfect but it's a workable heuristics. It helps to trust our gut feelings and put the person in situation/test her. For instance by giving this person power over us and see how this person reacts.

Also, generally speaking I must come with a strategy with each one of my 4 bosses to gain their trust. Generally speaking I realize it is about communicating more with them. I thought they were happy with me not bothering them. However, it leaves them in the dark. If I call and just give an update, ask a question, it gives them the sense that they're in control (which they are). If there is silence they don't know what is happening. So as a new leader I'm better off to err on the side of over communicating. They will correct me with them. Being confident while over communicating is also not the same as being unconfident and over communicating. Also if I show that I reflected and looked for solutions first before calling them they will not think of me of being not enough self-reliant.

Also, I want to say that she was able to "put the chiefs to sleep" with her good performance. I think so far I'm the only one who noticed these things about her. My colleagues think she's awesome and is going to be a great doctor. I agree with the last part. She's been trying to put me to sleep as well but I'm making sure I'm staying well awake and not let her stroke my ego. Then she will have power over me since I would feel good through her. What I actually did with my former bosses: "make them feel like kings but only through you". So emotional distance is warranted. "What a great idea boss!" -> warning sign.

I'm personally deferent to my bosses: "I'll do that" or "I'm on it". However it's to highlight that I'm their subordinate, that I'm aware of it and that I behave accordingly. Not in a manipulative attempt. The idea is to communicate: "I'm your subordinate, I get it an do my best to behave as such". Basically, doing my best to be a good follower.

I know I wrote a lot today. Difficult for me to spread my posts here over time as I basically have enough energy to write here only on my days off most of the times.

Roberto has reacted to this post.

#6 · August 3, 2023, 6:40 pm

Quote from John Freeman on August 3, 2023, 6:40 pm
Reading PU about toxic employee.

The one I’m talking about here is the typical “power seeker”.

It’s proposed that I must not teach her anything and my intuition whispered me the same thing.

However

1. she’s a high performer so if my bosses ask her how I’m doing she could tank my reputation

2. teaching is part of my responsibilities

3. In the future she could be an ally so giving her value could build a reciprocity. I think she is going to go high in any hierarchy so better have her as an ally in a few years than as an enemy

4. most of the times when I teach other people are around since it’s an open space. So if i teach someone she would hear some of it anyway. And it would be even stranger to her if she sees me teaching stuff to everyone else but her. She would see it.

5. she’s leaving in 3 months so it’s not like she’s going to be here long term an/or compete with me. Now she accepted me as a leader along with the emotional rewards.

So in this case I think it’s good to teach her stuff but not too much.

However reading about talking less (which is high effort high investment and therefor low power) I think I will definitely apply this to teaching as well. I’ll put this in my professional goals.

I’ll do my best to teach the same thing in as little words as possible.

Automatically it will increase the value of what I’m teaching.

This will help me because I give too much to residents. I say too much not because I’m virtue signaling. More because my leadership style is coaching and I love to teach. So I spend too much time teaching and not enough doing paperwork. It’s good for the team and the residents but then I’m behind my paperwork and it does not reflect well on me as an individual. So it can become lose-win if I teach too much. On top of it I’m extrovert so I love to talk.

That being said talking less seems a good strategy with the goal of being respected as a leader.

I’ll find the right balance.

Reading PU about toxic employee.

The one I’m talking about here is the typical “power seeker”.

It’s proposed that I must not teach her anything and my intuition whispered me the same thing.

However

1. she’s a high performer so if my bosses ask her how I’m doing she could tank my reputation

2. teaching is part of my responsibilities

3. In the future she could be an ally so giving her value could build a reciprocity. I think she is going to go high in any hierarchy so better have her as an ally in a few years than as an enemy

4. most of the times when I teach other people are around since it’s an open space. So if i teach someone she would hear some of it anyway. And it would be even stranger to her if she sees me teaching stuff to everyone else but her. She would see it.

5. she’s leaving in 3 months so it’s not like she’s going to be here long term an/or compete with me. Now she accepted me as a leader along with the emotional rewards.

So in this case I think it’s good to teach her stuff but not too much.

However reading about talking less (which is high effort high investment and therefor low power) I think I will definitely apply this to teaching as well. I’ll put this in my professional goals.

I’ll do my best to teach the same thing in as little words as possible.

Automatically it will increase the value of what I’m teaching.

This will help me because I give too much to residents. I say too much not because I’m virtue signaling. More because my leadership style is coaching and I love to teach. So I spend too much time teaching and not enough doing paperwork. It’s good for the team and the residents but then I’m behind my paperwork and it does not reflect well on me as an individual. So it can become lose-win if I teach too much. On top of it I’m extrovert so I love to talk.

That being said talking less seems a good strategy with the goal of being respected as a leader.

I’ll find the right balance.

Lucio Buffalmano and Roberto have reacted to this post.

#7 · August 4, 2023, 5:19 pm

Quote from John Freeman on August 4, 2023, 5:19 pm
New challenge today.

We have a radiology meeting where we check if we made the right diagnosis as pediatricians along with orthopedists. The orthopedists check that we did the right diagnosis and treatment.

Last time, the orthopedist told us: "for easy cases just say diagnosis and treatment" that is not the whole story nor the clinical exam.

Before the radiology meeting I tell this instruction to this power seeker. Of course I have to repeat it to explain to her that it is what they said as she resisted. She says "but I always do it like that (with whole story and clinical exam)". I repeat "yes but this is what they said". (It's true I did not tell her the whole rationale behind it, which I know but )

Now during the radiology meeting I'm looking forward if she's going to do what I said. And of course she did not do as I said.

So after the meeting I tell her:

Me: when I tell you to do something 2 min before the meeting you must do it (showed a little controlled anger)

Her: it was not against you (manipulation to frame me as taking it personnally)

Her: [lame excuse like when she reads the case this is what she always do] (she knew exactly what she was doing)

Me: I think you understood what I said

Her: [more lame excuses that I don't even listen to]

After that I talked to my boss about this with the question: "how do you deal with situations like that?" when people don't do what you asked.

Long story short: She asked if it was coming from her. And I said yes. She asked me if I thought she was not respecting me as an attending and I said yes. She said it's normal as I'm both a new attending in a new team in a new hospital. I'm the new guy. She was there before me and knew more things about the hospital than I did.

My boss could also share her own story as an attending in the making and as a staff physician in the making. So it was also bonding as she could see in me her own experience. She also told me that it was very complicated for the other attending who arrived in February at the beginning to be respected in his authority. That it was part of learning how to be an attending. My boss told me that I have 2 strategies:

I let it go, she's gone in 3 months, I should choose my battles

I enforce my authority

I told her that I let it go a lot in the past and it's also about self-respect. If I let her ignore my instructions it's a permission to disrespect me (ignoring is disrespect). So I found a 3rd approach, choosing my battles while not being too confrontational:

3. You did not do what I told you and I know it. I let it go for this time.

Which frames me as magnanimous and that I have teeth but decided not to show them. I'm not sure I'm going to use this one though. I think I will confront her every time.

The good was that it brought me and my boss closer and cemented the mentor-mentee relationship. On the other end it was an admission of weakness. I'm aware you told me Lucio not to talk about these management issues with my bosses and I think you're right. It was out of anxiety and I needed reassurance so I did it out of emotion rather than rationally. I felt like I needed guidance from my boss to soothe my anxiety after this confrontation. Looking back I would not have gone back to my boss. It was probably a mistake as I showed a weakness. The answers she gave me were not breaking news I knew about these: choosing your battles, let it pass.

So now I'm going to experiment with more babying and micro-managing with her. I'm going to shame her and frame her as an "unsubordinate": "did you do what I ask?" in front of others. And I will ask more: "is that clear for you?" as in "did you understand my instructions?" and then I'll check if she carried them out properly.

She's part of the people who only understand force and domination unfortunately.

Yes I choose my battles, my battle is called "self-respect".

Happy if you guys have any comment on this.

New challenge today.

We have a radiology meeting where we check if we made the right diagnosis as pediatricians along with orthopedists. The orthopedists check that we did the right diagnosis and treatment.

Last time, the orthopedist told us: "for easy cases just say diagnosis and treatment" that is not the whole story nor the clinical exam.

Before the radiology meeting I tell this instruction to this power seeker. Of course I have to repeat it to explain to her that it is what they said as she resisted. She says "but I always do it like that (with whole story and clinical exam)". I repeat "yes but this is what they said". (It's true I did not tell her the whole rationale behind it, which I know but )

Now during the radiology meeting I'm looking forward if she's going to do what I said. And of course she did not do as I said.

So after the meeting I tell her:

Me: when I tell you to do something 2 min before the meeting you must do it (showed a little controlled anger)

Her: it was not against you (manipulation to frame me as taking it personnally)

Her: [lame excuse like when she reads the case this is what she always do] (she knew exactly what she was doing)

Me: I think you understood what I said

Her: [more lame excuses that I don't even listen to]

After that I talked to my boss about this with the question: "how do you deal with situations like that?" when people don't do what you asked.

Long story short: She asked if it was coming from her. And I said yes. She asked me if I thought she was not respecting me as an attending and I said yes. She said it's normal as I'm both a new attending in a new team in a new hospital. I'm the new guy. She was there before me and knew more things about the hospital than I did.

My boss could also share her own story as an attending in the making and as a staff physician in the making. So it was also bonding as she could see in me her own experience. She also told me that it was very complicated for the other attending who arrived in February at the beginning to be respected in his authority. That it was part of learning how to be an attending. My boss told me that I have 2 strategies:

I let it go, she's gone in 3 months, I should choose my battles
I enforce my authority

I told her that I let it go a lot in the past and it's also about self-respect. If I let her ignore my instructions it's a permission to disrespect me (ignoring is disrespect). So I found a 3rd approach, choosing my battles while not being too confrontational:

3. You did not do what I told you and I know it. I let it go for this time.

Which frames me as magnanimous and that I have teeth but decided not to show them. I'm not sure I'm going to use this one though. I think I will confront her every time.

The good was that it brought me and my boss closer and cemented the mentor-mentee relationship. On the other end it was an admission of weakness. I'm aware you told me Lucio not to talk about these management issues with my bosses and I think you're right. It was out of anxiety and I needed reassurance so I did it out of emotion rather than rationally. I felt like I needed guidance from my boss to soothe my anxiety after this confrontation. Looking back I would not have gone back to my boss. It was probably a mistake as I showed a weakness. The answers she gave me were not breaking news I knew about these: choosing your battles, let it pass.

So now I'm going to experiment with more babying and micro-managing with her. I'm going to shame her and frame her as an "unsubordinate": "did you do what I ask?" in front of others. And I will ask more: "is that clear for you?" as in "did you understand my instructions?" and then I'll check if she carried them out properly.

She's part of the people who only understand force and domination unfortunately.

Yes I choose my battles, my battle is called "self-respect".

Happy if you guys have any comment on this.

Roberto has reacted to this post.

#8 · August 4, 2023, 6:23 pm

Emotionally I notice these kind of episodes lower my self-esteem and my self-confidence. Something to work on.

Roberto has reacted to this post.

#9 · August 4, 2023, 7:17 pm

Also, my boss told me that if one is being too authoritarian it creates an atmosphere of fear. She's right.

There is also the risk that enforcing too much makes people feel I'm using coercion and will resist more my influence because it's disempowering too them (as in removing some of their freedom)

Also enforcing too much will make people feel like there are too many demands to fulfill so they strategically won't fulfill them all.

#10 · August 5, 2023, 6:38 am

I now know what I could have done differently: take it on the chin and then talk it about with my peers (other attendings).

That’s how I could get emotional support and brainstorm solutions.

I learned from my supervisor though: a subordinate not doing the tasks assigned to him/her is simply not respecting his/her boss’ authority in the “new leader” scenario.