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Being interrogated

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Quote from Connor Jackson on May 14, 2021, 3:57 p

I was wondering in this interaction especially  and  any other for that matter   isn't it  better to attack the substance of their arguments rather than the form(Tone ) . I am unsure why many of the members here place  a  lot of importance on the form(tone ) rather than attacking the substance, Is it because there can be multiple  angles to attack(substance) and usually only one form( tone ) making form an easier frame to attack to win?

Thank you

What's better for you, to "win" a discussion -the (petty) battle-, or to set up a respect-based, potentially caring and win-win relationship -the long-game-?

That's the difference between arguments and form.

Don't get sidetracked by the name "form", which may sound superficial.
It's the opposite, instead.
The form/tone is the attitude to all discussions.
It's him wanting to one-up you, to demean you, to dominate you, to make you feel bad. All the stuff that makes a relationship value-taking and unacceptable.

The argument is... Who cares, that always changes.
And that's why you don't focus so much on the specific argument.

You focus on the attitude because you're addressing the main issue.
You're addressing that win-lose, demeaning, and aggressive are NOT ok anymore in your book.

That's why you go back and back to it: because that's the only thing that matters.

If you internalize that, it will come far more naturally.

Makes sense?
This is mindset / attitudes, look at the various start here sections and core articles.

Matthew Whitewood and Connor Jackson have reacted to this post.
Matthew WhitewoodConnor Jackson
Have you read the forum guidelines for effective communication already?

Lucio wrote a whole article on fixing combative relationships:
How To Fix Combative Relationships: Case Study

Although focused on romantic relationships, I believe the principles are applicable in resolving any combative relationship.

Connor Jackson has reacted to this post.
Connor Jackson
Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on May 14, 2021, 11:19 pm

What's better for you, to "win" a discussion -the (petty) battle-, or to set up a respect-based, potentially caring and win-win relationship -the long-game-?

That's the difference between arguments and form.

Don't get sidetracked by the name "form", which may sound superficial.
It's the opposite, instead.
The form/tone is the attitude to all discussions.
It's him wanting to one-up you, to demean you, to dominate you, to make you feel bad. All the stuff that makes a relationship value-taking and unacceptable.

The argument is... Who cares, that always changes.
And that's why you don't focus so much on the specific argument.

You focus on the attitude because you're addressing the main issue.
You're addressing that win-lose, demeaning, and aggressive are NOT ok anymore in your book.

That's why you go back and back to it: because that's the only thing that matters.

If you internalize that, it will come far more naturally.

Makes sense?
This is mindset / attitudes, look at the various start here sections and core articles.

Thank you Lucio for your answer. Like Matthew mentioned in the previous answer there is a significant difference between using a demeaning/aggressive tone  and a rational discussion. In this case it is clearly a win lose discussion and that's why even though I know it is better to have a rational discussion and calm the tone...I cannot back down...in this it feels to me like "hit or get hit" at least if I cannot win, I must discourage further attacks by giving  a sharp retort(one upping) so they think twice about attacking me...This feels possible  only if I blow away their arguments(substance).

Basically even when the tone is neutral with these kind of win/ lose people it still feels like an attack.

in this, Sheldon  is polite and civil, this kind if questioning even in this tone would drive me mad because it's not so much about the tone as the content in that tone.

For eg: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gbf8AwKhJ24

There is a scene just like this with Sheldon and Leonard, I couldn't find that clip.

In this you can see how annoying Sheldon is and how he assumes power , although Penny here doesn't seem to mind it. In this scene with Leonard, Leonard does get mad at Sheldon's inane question.

Imagine Leonard replies

Leonard : Sheldon enough with your questions( silence)

Sheldon:  Leonard these are genuine questions, why are you annoyed?

Leonard: Your questions frankly annoy me and they are pointless.

Sheldon: Pointless? and what's there to be annoyed about? Those are genuine questions having two possible answers yes or no. All you have to is tell me yes or no.

Leonard: Why can't you check it yourself?

Sheldon: What a preposterous idea, you mean to say you're not sure if you bring the right order or not?

 

this is definitely a win/lose situation, so in these kind of situations isn't it better to handle the substance rather than focus on tone?

Thank you

Hi Connor,

Maybe we have a different understanding of tone.
What constitutes tone in a conversation to you?

Lucio Buffalmano has reacted to this post.
Lucio Buffalmano

Yeah, it feels like you're getting fixated on playing at the son of a bitch level.

To use this website's allegory, we'd say that you're letting a turkey pull you down to turkey level.

And I get it.
There times when all you'd want to do is take out the biggest gun you can muster, and slay every last mothaf*cking turkey in the room.

Do it, if you really want.
And it can even help you to learn.
But to do it effectively, to be honest, you gotta both grow a bigger pair to go head to head with your uncle and improve your skills.
So far he's got the drop on you on both.

And I can't effectively teach you either on a brief forum post.
All I can do is to advise you to start from the beginning.
If you wanna use this website, it's PU, the "Start Here" pages, and Ultimate Power.

But don't forget the bigger game.
And the bigger game, is that you don't want to become a turkey. You want to soar higher.

Connor Jackson has reacted to this post.
Connor Jackson
Have you read the forum guidelines for effective communication already?
Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on May 20, 2021, 7:20 pm

Yeah, it feels like you're getting fixated on playing at the son of a bitch level.

To use this website's allegory, we'd say that you're letting a turkey pull you down to turkey level.

And I get it.
There times when all you'd want to do is take out the biggest gun you can muster, and slay every last mothaf*cking turkey in the room.

Do it, if you really want.
And it can even help you to learn.
But to do it effectively, to be honest, you gotta both grow a bigger pair to go head to head with your uncle and improve your skills.
So far he's got the drop on you on both.

And I can't effectively teach you either on a brief forum post.
All I can do is to advise you to start from the beginning.
If you wanna use this website, it's PU, the "Start Here" pages, and Ultimate Power.

But don't forget the bigger game.
And the bigger game, is that you don't want to become a turkey. You want to soar higher.

I have noticed that with some people, nothing works better than giving them a taste of their own medicine, unfortunately it comes with the side effect of pulling you down to their level like you said Lucio and thank you for asking me to look at the bigger picture, truly that's what matters in life.

Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on May 20, 2021, 7:20 pm

But to do it effectively, to be honest, you gotta both grow a bigger pair to go head to head with your uncle and improve your skills.
So far he's got the drop on you on both.

 

Point noted Lucio, I have been aware of the disparity and will work to flip it around.

 

Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on May 20, 2021, 7:20 pm

And I can't effectively teach you either on a brief forum post.
All I can do is to advise you to start from the beginning.
If you wanna use this website, it's PU, the "Start Here" pages, and Ultimate Power.

 

I understand Lucio, though you have given me a few things that I can experiment with

Thank you

Quote from Matthew Whitewood on May 20, 2021, 1:11 pm

Hi Connor,

Maybe we have a different understanding of tone.
What constitutes tone in a conversation to you?

I might have a warped idea about tone Matthew, because  I was never told that it matters, but when it seemed odd to me, I ended up rationalizing it unconsciously.I came across a helpful video, I'm not sure if it has been posted here before, I found what he said helpful and will post the link below. I would recommend people in the forum to watch the video in its entirety to understand the whole thing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=btBw70HAys4

Awesome, much respect for the attitude, man!

Let us know how it goes.

Have you read the forum guidelines for effective communication already?
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