Bel's thoughts
Quote from Bel on October 24, 2022, 4:10 amThis makes me understand that ignoring, as I did above, can also work to address the maneuver.
After all, the “cover” of the manipulator prevents not only the listener, but also the manipulator from escalating. Since he is not verbally putting the blame on the listener, the listener can just ignore. Give him rope to hang himself by following the lead that the third party is the sole person to blame!
And maybe, while the guilt-tripper hangs himself by continuing to complain about the third party, play a bit on the unstable mood of the guilt-tripper by suggesting a camomile. Totally deserved. Or even go along (if doable without risking further triangulation) in painting the third party as bad, to reinforce the verbal message that the third party is the sole party to blame.
If the guilt-tripper comes out of the cover by directly guilt-tripping, one can then fight on a balanced plane: superficial empathizing and generalizing the situation.
And maybe even being surprised: wasn’t the third party the bad one?!
Yes, great one!
And if you reply, doing so with much less, and decreasing involvement.
It's important for your emotional well-being as these covert power move affect our mental health and happiness.
So it's not only good to cut it short, but to force a positive on the situation, which is its own covert power move.
For example:
Manipulator: you won't believe those people! Bla bla...
You: (interject) yeah, some people sometimes really act like assholes. Sorry to hear that, but listen, I'm working now and I gotta go now. Don't let that drag you down, stay upbeat mate, it's a beautiful life
Or some platitudes like "look at things positively mate", which is also your own power move, and sub-communicates "don't come around here with that sad sack BS".
Or "next time, tell them! Be direct".
BUT, it's also for your own self-signaling: you end high power, frame-controlling, and on a positive.
Even better if you do it in text (usually a good idea not to give the manipulator the chance to call you in person anyway).
Or you can even empathize if you want to keep some relationships.
In my case, it could be:
Manipulator: OMG she's so dirty, I'm going crazy (attaches pictures)
You: (never opens the pictures, prevents the person from seeing your online status, your last time online, and block media transfer if possible) (the day after) yeah, sucks to hear, some people are really dirty. Don't be a passive victim though, speak up, tell her! I hope everything else is good 🙂
Then take longer and longer to reply, ignore some, etc.
-----
New name for this dynamics?
BTW, this is a special case of guilt-tripping.
It involves (or makes up) a third party the manipulator complains (or fumes) against, while instead seeking to guilt trip you into action (or sometimes even just to make you sadder).
You're right that it's covert, albeit "covert" may be too general since may forms of guilt-tripping are also covert (whenever someone seeks to make you feel bad or guilty without saying "you did this" it's covert).
If you (or anyone else) have any idea on how we may call it, happy to read.
So far:
- Triangular guilt-tripping
- Displaced guilt-tripping
- Passing the buck guilt-tripping: it passes 3 bucks actually, the "blame" from the guilty party onto you, the emotional distress from the manipulator onto you, and the responsibility of action from them onto you
Your solution of forcing a positive on it is invaluable, as it subcommunicates "being the bigger/mature person".
Btw: it's exactly what my former boss would do (in a different (manipulative) context) whenever I would complain; he would say: "you need to look at the glass as half full".
And also the idea of directing the guilt-tripper to speak directly with the third party under the guise of "defending his rights" (thus subcommunicating he is currently being a victim): awesome!
As to the names you suggest, I like "triangular guilt-tripping".
Here's something I understood only today, from the behavior of others I observed in my life:
- when reconnecting with a friend to ask something, it's better to always introduce the text/email/call by asking how are things going.
Even if it is just a formality.
Skipping this step:
- subcommunicates getting in touch only to get something; and
- cannot really be amended, if repeated the relationship is going to be soured, unless it is purely professional and in the initial stages.
By the way: I am finding that while I used to be "less worse" at recognizing and maintaining emotional bids in managing real life / phone call conversations, I was mostly not doing it at all in written communications (email/texts).
Somehow I thought that the written medium justified more detachment, or was just unaware of this.
I think this is also related to me learning a big portion of "how to write" from that nice person of my former boss.
- when being perfunctorily asked in writing how one is, by another person who is asking for something, one should answer the perfunctory question.
From the other side: if the other person asks me "how are things" when reconnecting before asking me something, should I acknowledge and answer the perfunctory question?
My take: I think the perfunctory question should be answered, even if in a perfunctory way:
Other: Hey Bel, how are things? Can I ask you...?
Me: Hey X, all good, hope you're the same. Sure, we can...
Reasoning: if "not asking" the question subcommunicates "not caring", then it follows that "not answering" the question also subcommunicates "not caring".
And of course I was doing this side wrong as well [facepalm].
Edit: on second thought, from the other side, maybe the answer could also be omitted, as caring is subcommunicated by doing what is asked. But probably still best to answer.
Second edit: I think, from this side, answering the question is especially important when one is being paid for what the other person is asking.
Otherwise, the asker could get the subcommunication that the other is skipping the answer because he is interested only in the "work side".
Some sparse ideas:
- instead of focusing on every single word I write or say, it may be better to focus on the general “balance” in power and warmth between my communication and other’s. That’s because of a multitude of factors, including:
- the general “power tone” is more important than specific word or sentence nuances
- It is possible to recover from “power slips” or “power excesses” by addressing the imbalance in later communication
- when one does not make big mistakes (as I was doing before PU), other people are generally going to interpret what one says in the positive and give the benefit of the doubt
- certain things can only be understood after some time, and the “general balance of power” may be found in unconscious ways (eg, responding to light tasking by accepting it, while simultaneously taking the lead on the next steps in a project).
Again on thank you’s at the end of emails
I am starting to think that some people default to write to advisors and service providers by always concluding with thank you’s.
I also understand now the difference between a friend saying thank you at the end of a communication, and a client saying the same thing. Big difference.
It may be best to not focus on this anymore and just try to go with the general tone and power balance.
Quote from Bel on October 26, 2022, 1:54 amSome sparse ideas:
- instead of focusing on every single word I write or say, it may be better to focus on the general “balance” in power and warmth between my communication and other’s. That’s because of a multitude of factors, including:
- the general “power tone” is more important than specific word or sentence nuances
- It is possible to recover from “power slips” or “power excesses” by addressing the imbalance in later communication
- when one does not make big mistakes (as I was doing before PU), other people are generally going to interpret what one says in the positive and give the benefit of the doubt
Yes, absolutely.
Focusing on the details may indeed be a phase to go through as one improves.
Those who are already at a certain level often say "don't over-sweati it" or "it's nothing" or the more popular "just be cool / just be yourself", but to get to that level often means going through the detailed analysis of word-for-word and power move-for-power move
I am still angry at some people for what they did to me in the past. I have been unable so far to accept it fully and go on.
I am still unconsciously trying to "make them pay" for what happened in the past. This gives them emotional leverage over me.
Sometimes I would like to be emotionless - then I could do what I wanted without any remorse or guilt.
But I was not born this way. And this makes me less effective, including in accepting superficial relationships with people who did me wrong in the past. I am still unable to do so, even to my detriment.
Some of these people have lately expressed the wish to (superficially) amend by giving me something. But I don't want to accept it. I simply can't. It would amount to further humiliating myself by accepting the help or gifts of some people who tried to destroy me.
I know in theory I could accept these things and then do what I want, including still close any relationship with these people.
But I can't.
Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on March 2, 2022, 11:17 pm... successful folks aren't looking for lawyers they can boss around to handle their most important -and lucrative- cases.
As a matter of fact, you might even see that as a test.
Roll over, and you're easy to task, boss around, and good for smaller cases and grunt work.
I understand there was a bigger principle at work here:
- formerly being lower power made most high-power people slot me into the "useless" category.
Worse:
- formerly being lower power made nasty people slot me into the "can abuse and push around for my exclusive benefit" category.
I just couldn't understand why "friends" and people, who would help and respect others, would instead constantly disrespect me, abuse me and push me around.
Now I see the reason.
Bel have you thought of combining the revenge with the offer for relationship, and may be enjoy the relationship while still satisfying the (very understandable, normal, and fair) will for revenge?
For example, with whatever they offer, you reply something like:
Nah, it's been x years you've been a bastard with me as I've already explained.
Now I know better, and now you know.
You need to do better than that.
And then you can either leave it up to them, or you may field your request.
In a way, you're disempowering. Potentially, humiliating them a little bit too.
But what you're also doing, is pushing them to own up and make it up to you for what they've taken, which is totally fair.
Quote from Bel on October 28, 2022, 3:36 pmI am still angry at some people for what they did to me in the past. I have been unable so far to accept it fully and go on.
I am still unconsciously trying to "make them pay" for what happened in the past. This gives them emotional leverage over me.
Sometimes I would like to be emotionless - then I could do what I wanted without any remorse or guilt.
But I was not born this way. And this makes me less effective, including in accepting superficial relationships with people who did me wrong in the past. I am still unable to do so, even to my detriment.
Some of these people have lately expressed the wish to (superficially) amend by giving me something. But I don't want to accept it. I simply can't. It would amount to further humiliating myself by accepting the help or gifts of some people who tried to destroy me.
I know in theory I could accept these things and then do what I want, including still close any relationship with these people.
But I can't.
Hi Bel,
I'm a bit tentative to write this out since I'm not an expert on the topic, but I want to share my thoughts since I can relate to what you're writing and hopefully I can share something useful.
First of all, I think it's definitely okay to be angry at people who have wronged you in the past. Having read a lot of your threads it's pretty clear that you've had to suffer through a lot of toxic people to get where you are today (which I think has been a very impressive journey). That said, while being angry is okay, I agree that it gives them some emotional leverage over you, so ideally it would be better to let go of the anger.
However, I think a first important step is to accept that it is okay to be angry. Just like Lucio says in the first lesson of PU, you want to recruit yourself, not fight yourself. The thought that you should let go of your anger is, at least my experience, counterproductive. It's really a lack of acceptance of how things really are: if you are angry and you wish you weren't, you're just fighting yourself and your reality. Better would be to realize that it is okay to be angry, and even if it's not ideal, it is what it is, no need to fight it as it doesn't help.
Another useful thing I learned from the Emotional Mastery course is that you can't force forgiveness. The only thing you can do is try to understand why the people who wronged you did what they did. If you think back to what they've done and try to understand their underlying reasons, you can then compare it to how you act and what drives you. If you do this you might be surprised to find similarities between your own drives and actions and those of the people who wronged you. What is important here is that you do not let these comparisons bring you down (i.e thinking you're as bad as they are), or bring them further down (i.e thinking they are even worse than you thought). The goal of this is simply to understand why they acted the way they did, and through that understanding you'll probably find it easier to let go of your anger.
Of course this is just my take from an outside perspective, feel free to disagree with anything I've written.
Thank you so much Lucio and Mats G.
Lucio, your suggestion is great, basically saying "that's not going to be enough" independently of their "offer". I'll make that a part of my arsenal.
Mats, thank you for your kind words. I'll think about what you wrote.
Btw, I'm finding myself now sending connection requests on LinkedIn to many assholes I had blocked. Some are accepting them, and some are not.
But I don't really care what they do. I think I want to subcommunicate I'm so past their "past assholeness" that I can even tolerate to have them between my contacts. The "other side" of being indifferent, I guess. And if they then start to bug me, I think I will simply ignore.