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Bel's thoughts

#631 · May 27, 2023, 8:48 pm

Quote from John Freeman on May 27, 2023, 8:48 pm

Hello Bel,

I wrote this below yesterday evening so it does not take into account the recent exchanges with Lucio.

-------

I agree: well written.

Quote from Bel on May 26, 2023, 9:13 pm

I suppose my recent reflections about sociopaths are ultimately a form of self-denial.

The reality is that I was looking to find an excuse as to why I was destroying (and probably have destroyed, somewhat so far) my life, my relationship, and everything, that would allow me to maintain the frame that

"I was a good guy".

Yes. It's easy to fall for this as it is quite automatic to compare oneself with others. So as you said, it takes some mental energy to see it for what it is and to detach from this behaviour.

Yet, I wasn't a "good" guy.

I was just fearful, dominated, submissive, naive and even manipulative.

Jordan Peterson said: "a harmless man is not a good man". That goes back with TPM's motto: "to be good you need first to be bad". It means for me that one must be able to muster some aggression to "play the social game". If one only has assertion only or submission only or both then one is missing a tool I believe. I relate to what you wrote.

And I lost so many opportunities and life in that mode.

We all did, at least so did I. It's how we learn. Some people never realize this so this new awareness is a blessing. Better now than later. So I think these lost opportunities are both lessons and fuel for change.

And I made so many enemies out of my former way of being.

Yep, I also made a few enemies unwillingly and unknowingly. Awareness again I think.

And, I can't yet see all the people who just took advantage of me and bullshitted me as "good" or even "normal".

A part of me still hates them. A part of me still hates everybody I knew before studying PU.

I hate people for the fact that they naturally took advantage of my being weak.

I think it's helpful not to blame these people. Weak people tend to take advantage of us when we are weak. It takes a strong person to see the flaws/weaknesses in the other and still be giving, warm and accepting towards this person without taking advantage of it. "The buttons" as I like to call them. That is what can hurt us (for the worst or for the better depending on the situation as most of the times we grow from this pain if we use it as a motivation to change and improve).

If one sees the buttons of other people and uses to hurt the person, it's nasty. One can still see the buttons and leave them untouched. So these nasty people did what they did. It was not cool nor warranted. Some people are malevolent: they intent evil. Or just selfish/lazy/hurt, any reason actually. I think the sooner we put all of this behind us (that is: moving on emotionally) the better. I'm not talking denial here I'm talking about letting go. Process it, learn from it and move on. All of this to say that I agree. The question now is: "what will we do with this new awareness?"

But it's probably ultimately another form of self-denial and self-protection.

And behind it is some form of self-hate.

I think it's how the human mind protects itself: it takes us some time to be ready for some uncomfortable truths about ourselves/our lives. In the mean time I think the mind protects itself from some aspects of reality that could hurt us. At some point we are strong enough and we can face this new disagreeable reality that we somehow escaped/avoided/were not ready for. That's how I see it.

I suppose this is why I'm currently feeling the need to be alone.

To get distance and accept all this. Accept that the real problem was, in fact, me.

I feel you man. I would like to comment on this:

Accept that the real problem was, in fact, me.

And would like to suggest this:

Accept that the real problem was, in fact, in me.

To me, this shit is not us. It's something that somehow grew inside of us. Not blaming anybody here (parents, society,etc.). Every environment, every family, every school has negative elements to it. And we absorb them (beliefs, thoughts, behaviours, etc.). So it's natural that we incorporate some negativity in us as we grow up. More or less according to our environment. And there are different flavours of shit of course if you pass me the expression. At some point we see it for what it is and we do our best to get rid of it.

Another aspect is that in the same way that one can feel power. One can feel the shit. In my experience, some people choose to dump their emotional shit on others. So if we are being too empathetic/open or just empathetic/open with the wrong people, we absorb it and it's not even our own. I have experienced making myself vulnerable with someone and the other person see it as an opportunity and dump their shit in me (not a pretty image I know). Then I have had to process these shitty feelings that were not even my own.

I think we have a responsibility for absorbing this negativity, even if out of survival. That's why I think we ought not to be too hard on ourselves: it was our awareness at the time and many times we adopted some behaviour as a defense mechanism. It's not an excuse it's a reason. We also build up some negativity inside of us through rumination and our own nastiness (our "dark" side, even if I don't like this term anymore).

So in summary, we all have some shit within and we are better off without this shit. But first we have to see it for what it is: unhelpful and harming stuff. When we get rid of it we feel more free. And it's an neverending process until we die I believe. So yes it's about learning new thoughts, beliefs, behaviours as we do here and also freeing us from these harmful thoughts, beliefs, behaviours from our past. I also experienced that often a new "level" (it's more complex than levels of course) of awareness is often painful. I personally view this pain as a motivation for self-improvement. That's the best we can do in my opinion and that's what we're doing here.

My respect to you. Kudos!

But I can also see other scenarios where it's not painful and you take it either neutrally, or even positively given all the good things that are coming from it.

This goes deeper into the rabbit hole, I mean there are ramifications to this.

I think there are instances when the pain is part of the process and sometimes we can realize some behaviour/thought/belief and just neutrally look at them in a dispassionate way. Currently, I don't know why we sometimes hurt and why sometimes we see it more objectively and we don't. Maybe it has something to do with how much these were embedded in our self-perceived identity or our self-esteem or our ability to analyze rationally or a mix of those.

In my experience I would say that the times it was the most painful for me to realize some stuff was when the things I realized where deeply contradicting how I perceived myself and when my self-esteem was low (probably catalyzing the pain I think). I'm aware that I will surely suffer in the future again about these kinds of realization. I'm talking about past experiences here but I know I will experience them again (probably sooner than I think).

Hello Bel,

I wrote this below yesterday evening so it does not take into account the recent exchanges with Lucio.

-------

I agree: well written.

Quote from Bel on May 26, 2023, 9:13 pm

I suppose my recent reflections about sociopaths are ultimately a form of self-denial.

The reality is that I was looking to find an excuse as to why I was destroying (and probably have destroyed, somewhat so far) my life, my relationship, and everything, that would allow me to maintain the frame that

"I was a good guy".

Yes. It's easy to fall for this as it is quite automatic to compare oneself with others. So as you said, it takes some mental energy to see it for what it is and to detach from this behaviour.

Yet, I wasn't a "good" guy.

I was just fearful, dominated, submissive, naive and even manipulative.

Jordan Peterson said: "a harmless man is not a good man". That goes back with TPM's motto: "to be good you need first to be bad". It means for me that one must be able to muster some aggression to "play the social game". If one only has assertion only or submission only or both then one is missing a tool I believe. I relate to what you wrote.

And I lost so many opportunities and life in that mode.

We all did, at least so did I. It's how we learn. Some people never realize this so this new awareness is a blessing. Better now than later. So I think these lost opportunities are both lessons and fuel for change.

And I made so many enemies out of my former way of being.

Yep, I also made a few enemies unwillingly and unknowingly. Awareness again I think.

And, I can't yet see all the people who just took advantage of me and bullshitted me as "good" or even "normal".

A part of me still hates them. A part of me still hates everybody I knew before studying PU.

I hate people for the fact that they naturally took advantage of my being weak.

I think it's helpful not to blame these people. Weak people tend to take advantage of us when we are weak. It takes a strong person to see the flaws/weaknesses in the other and still be giving, warm and accepting towards this person without taking advantage of it. "The buttons" as I like to call them. That is what can hurt us (for the worst or for the better depending on the situation as most of the times we grow from this pain if we use it as a motivation to change and improve).

If one sees the buttons of other people and uses to hurt the person, it's nasty. One can still see the buttons and leave them untouched. So these nasty people did what they did. It was not cool nor warranted. Some people are malevolent: they intent evil. Or just selfish/lazy/hurt, any reason actually. I think the sooner we put all of this behind us (that is: moving on emotionally) the better. I'm not talking denial here I'm talking about letting go. Process it, learn from it and move on. All of this to say that I agree. The question now is: "what will we do with this new awareness?"

But it's probably ultimately another form of self-denial and self-protection.

And behind it is some form of self-hate.

I think it's how the human mind protects itself: it takes us some time to be ready for some uncomfortable truths about ourselves/our lives. In the mean time I think the mind protects itself from some aspects of reality that could hurt us. At some point we are strong enough and we can face this new disagreeable reality that we somehow escaped/avoided/were not ready for. That's how I see it.

I suppose this is why I'm currently feeling the need to be alone.

To get distance and accept all this. Accept that the real problem was, in fact, me.

I feel you man. I would like to comment on this:

Accept that the real problem was, in fact, me.

And would like to suggest this:

Accept that the real problem was, in fact, in me.

To me, this shit is not us. It's something that somehow grew inside of us. Not blaming anybody here (parents, society,etc.). Every environment, every family, every school has negative elements to it. And we absorb them (beliefs, thoughts, behaviours, etc.). So it's natural that we incorporate some negativity in us as we grow up. More or less according to our environment. And there are different flavours of shit of course if you pass me the expression. At some point we see it for what it is and we do our best to get rid of it.

Another aspect is that in the same way that one can feel power. One can feel the shit. In my experience, some people choose to dump their emotional shit on others. So if we are being too empathetic/open or just empathetic/open with the wrong people, we absorb it and it's not even our own. I have experienced making myself vulnerable with someone and the other person see it as an opportunity and dump their shit in me (not a pretty image I know). Then I have had to process these shitty feelings that were not even my own.

I think we have a responsibility for absorbing this negativity, even if out of survival. That's why I think we ought not to be too hard on ourselves: it was our awareness at the time and many times we adopted some behaviour as a defense mechanism. It's not an excuse it's a reason. We also build up some negativity inside of us through rumination and our own nastiness (our "dark" side, even if I don't like this term anymore).

So in summary, we all have some shit within and we are better off without this shit. But first we have to see it for what it is: unhelpful and harming stuff. When we get rid of it we feel more free. And it's an neverending process until we die I believe. So yes it's about learning new thoughts, beliefs, behaviours as we do here and also freeing us from these harmful thoughts, beliefs, behaviours from our past. I also experienced that often a new "level" (it's more complex than levels of course) of awareness is often painful. I personally view this pain as a motivation for self-improvement. That's the best we can do in my opinion and that's what we're doing here.

My respect to you. Kudos!

But I can also see other scenarios where it's not painful and you take it either neutrally, or even positively given all the good things that are coming from it.

This goes deeper into the rabbit hole, I mean there are ramifications to this.

I think there are instances when the pain is part of the process and sometimes we can realize some behaviour/thought/belief and just neutrally look at them in a dispassionate way. Currently, I don't know why we sometimes hurt and why sometimes we see it more objectively and we don't. Maybe it has something to do with how much these were embedded in our self-perceived identity or our self-esteem or our ability to analyze rationally or a mix of those.

In my experience I would say that the times it was the most painful for me to realize some stuff was when the things I realized where deeply contradicting how I perceived myself and when my self-esteem was low (probably catalyzing the pain I think). I'm aware that I will surely suffer in the future again about these kinds of realization. I'm talking about past experiences here but I know I will experience them again (probably sooner than I think).

Bel has reacted to this post.

#632 · May 28, 2023, 3:23 am

Thank you John,

first of all for your closeness and second for just an awesome, awesome series of insights.

I agree with you: the realizations that hurt the most are those that contradict how we used to see ourselves. Those that uncover our blind spots.

When they are revealed, our facade crumbles and we see how we really were.

But thankfully, simultaneous to the realization that we weren’t our best, we stop being that way for good.

John Freeman has reacted to this post.

#633 · May 31, 2023, 1:56 pm

Quote from Bel on May 31, 2023, 1:56 pm
Insecure-dominance attempts

I went to dinner with Bella in a place where some female friends of hers from her gym also were dining at another table.

One of these female friends of Bella, I had already met during a trial at her gym.

We got there and this lady, whom we'll call Jane, stood up to say hi to us when she saw us.

While getting near us and saluting Bella, she said this and the following interaction ensued:

Jane: (referring to me) I'm sure he doesn't remember me.

Me: It's a pleasure to see you again, Jane.

Jane: Hi! So why did you never come back to our gym?

Me: Well, I chose not to sign up.

Jane: But why?

Me: I'm training on my own now.

Jane: (to Bella) Oh, he trains at home.

We get near our table and she follows us.

Jane: (to Bella) So when are you coming to dance with us?

Bella: I don't dance so much these days as I used to...

Jane: Well, it's true, there are men there, but... (turning to me) look, he's 75, he's 80, and...

So the frame she was setting up was basically that Bella didn't want to go dancing with them because I was insecure of other men.

Me: Ahaha. Nice, but you know, Bella used to already go dancing in other places as well, full of all kinds of people.

Jane: Ah ok. In any case come with me and I'll introduce you to all people here. (she then grabbed my wrist and started pulling me)

Me: (resisting and freeing my wrist) No, we'll stay here and start dining for now. But surely we'll meet all others later during the night.

Jane: Ok. So have a good dinner!

Me: You too, and see you later!

At a certain point she came back to our table with another female friend of Bella from the gym.

Jane: So look who I brought you here!

Bella: How nice! Hello Emma!

Emma: Hello Bella! (they hug)

Bella: This is Bel, my partner.

Emma: Hi! Nice to meet you!

Me: Nice to meet you, Emma.

(I extend my hand and she takes it, then she puts her other hand on top of it.)

(I extend my other hand and grab her forearm to equalize.)

Then they go back to their table.

Sometime later she brings another woman back to our table.

This other woman is kind to me, but immediately starts repeatedly touching Bella on her shoulders.

She touched Bella five times throughout one minute of talking.

Bella does not reciprocate touching. My feeling is that she should have, and later I told her.

Then Bella says to me:

Bella: Yeah, you're right! The problem was that I was busy thinking: "Who the heck is this woman??" 🙂

Again later, Jane brings some of the pizza from their big table to us, to have us "taste it".

I interpret it as an "older mama" gesture, and thank her for it.

Later again, while we are leaving, we go up to her to say goodbye.

Us: Goodbye Jane! Thank you for everything.

Jane: Goodbye to you! Take care. I have both of you in my heart. And please, talk talk talk.

I chose to ignore this.

This last line was because Bella, as she later told me, had let it slip up that our relationship was undergoing some "troubled moments".

I then told Bella that for the future I would appreciate if we could keep our private issues private, and not to involve others - that if she has any problems, I prefer her to talk only with me.

Bella agreed. She told me she had tried, but she had just broken up one morning at the gym and Jane had seen her and asked what was going on.

In any case, the dinner went much better than it would have in the same circumstances before TPM. Just my awareness of these dynamics was enough to make me react in a better way.

Happy to read any comments you may have guys.

Insecure-dominance attempts

I went to dinner with Bella in a place where some female friends of hers from her gym also were dining at another table.

One of these female friends of Bella, I had already met during a trial at her gym.

We got there and this lady, whom we'll call Jane, stood up to say hi to us when she saw us.

While getting near us and saluting Bella, she said this and the following interaction ensued:

Jane: (referring to me) I'm sure he doesn't remember me.

Me: It's a pleasure to see you again, Jane.

Jane: Hi! So why did you never come back to our gym?

Me: Well, I chose not to sign up.

Jane: But why?

Me: I'm training on my own now.

Jane: (to Bella) Oh, he trains at home.

We get near our table and she follows us.

Jane: (to Bella) So when are you coming to dance with us?

Bella: I don't dance so much these days as I used to...

Jane: Well, it's true, there are men there, but... (turning to me) look, he's 75, he's 80, and...

So the frame she was setting up was basically that Bella didn't want to go dancing with them because I was insecure of other men.

Me: Ahaha. Nice, but you know, Bella used to already go dancing in other places as well, full of all kinds of people.

Jane: Ah ok. In any case come with me and I'll introduce you to all people here. (she then grabbed my wrist and started pulling me)

Me: (resisting and freeing my wrist) No, we'll stay here and start dining for now. But surely we'll meet all others later during the night.

Jane: Ok. So have a good dinner!

Me: You too, and see you later!

At a certain point she came back to our table with another female friend of Bella from the gym.

Jane: So look who I brought you here!

Bella: How nice! Hello Emma!

Emma: Hello Bella! (they hug)

Bella: This is Bel, my partner.

Emma: Hi! Nice to meet you!

Me: Nice to meet you, Emma.

(I extend my hand and she takes it, then she puts her other hand on top of it.)

(I extend my other hand and grab her forearm to equalize.)

Then they go back to their table.

Sometime later she brings another woman back to our table.

This other woman is kind to me, but immediately starts repeatedly touching Bella on her shoulders.

She touched Bella five times throughout one minute of talking.

Bella does not reciprocate touching. My feeling is that she should have, and later I told her.

Then Bella says to me:

Bella: Yeah, you're right! The problem was that I was busy thinking: "Who the heck is this woman??" 🙂

Again later, Jane brings some of the pizza from their big table to us, to have us "taste it".

I interpret it as an "older mama" gesture, and thank her for it.

Later again, while we are leaving, we go up to her to say goodbye.

Us: Goodbye Jane! Thank you for everything.

Jane: Goodbye to you! Take care. I have both of you in my heart. And please, talk talk talk.

I chose to ignore this.

This last line was because Bella, as she later told me, had let it slip up that our relationship was undergoing some "troubled moments".

I then told Bella that for the future I would appreciate if we could keep our private issues private, and not to involve others - that if she has any problems, I prefer her to talk only with me.

Bella agreed. She told me she had tried, but she had just broken up one morning at the gym and Jane had seen her and asked what was going on.

In any case, the dinner went much better than it would have in the same circumstances before TPM. Just my awareness of these dynamics was enough to make me react in a better way.

Happy to read any comments you may have guys.

Lucio Buffalmano has reacted to this post.

#634 · May 31, 2023, 5:24 pm

Nice one, Bel!

Man, I smiled with a little bit of pride at these:

I resist and free my wrist
Catching the disempowering "jealousy sub-communication" and dismantling
I extend my other hand and grab her forearm to equalize

Also, consider these 2 very different approaches:

I chose not to - without any reason

Jane: But why?
You: I could have chosen to join, or not to join. I chose not to

You did great in that situation and your option was better.

However, it's good to have the above version when you want to maintain more power and don't want to provide a reason that can always feel a bit like justifying.

You always let your partner free to talk to whoever (as long as she talks to you first and most)

Consider this very different approach:

You never tell your partner not to talk about issues in your relationship.
It's akin to asking her to suffer in silence by not sharing.

A middle road would be not to share personal stuff about you, and that talking to you early and straight is what's most important.
Then, if she feels like sharing something with someone else, up to her.

Basically, as long as you avoid nasty triangulation where a bestie knows of thoughts, plans and pains before you do, and she always keeps you as #1, then she can have as many #2, 3, 4, 5... as she wants

Edit:
If you're interested in the rationale / possibility of this option, feel free to open a topic in the relationship section.
May be interesting to explore.

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#635 · May 31, 2023, 9:42 pm

Quote from Bel on May 31, 2023, 9:42 pm
Thank you, Lucio!

Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on May 31, 2023, 5:24 pm

Nice one, Bel!

Man, I smiled with a little bit of pride at these:

I resist and free my wrist

Catching the disempowering "jealousy sub-communication" and dismantling

I extend my other hand and grab her forearm to equalize

I did apply every one of your teachings here!

About this:

I resist and free my wrist

When she did that, I immediately thought about your article on "not being pulled into things". If she had had asked politely, of course; but as soon as she pulls my wrist... then the answer is "no".

Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on May 31, 2023, 5:24 pm

I chose not to - without any reason

Jane: But why?
You: I could have chosen to join, or not to join. I chose not to

You did great in that situation and your option was better.

However, it's good to have the above version when you want to maintain more power and don't want to provide a reason that can always feel a bit like justifying.

You always let your partner free to talk to whoever (as long as she talks to you first and most)

Consider this very different approach:

You never tell your partner not to talk about issues in your relationship.
It's akin to asking her to suffer in silence by not sharing.

A middle road would be not to share personal stuff about you, and that talking to you early and straight is what's most important.
Then, if she feels like sharing something with someone else, up to her.

Basically, as long as you avoid nasty triangulation where a bestie knows of thoughts, plans and pains before you do, and she always keeps you as #1, then she can have as many #2, 3, 4, 5... as she wants

Edit:
If you're interested in the rationale / possibility of this option, feel free to open a topic in the relationship section.
May be interesting to explore.

Thank you for the two approaches here above.

I can see immediately that you are absolutely right about Bella having to be free to talk to friends about us, or in any case about her situation (and I'll open the new thread on that, it is interesting).

On a related note, Bella told me tonight she now feels that "I can protect her". Basically, she verbalized what I was thinking after the "waiters at restaurants" thread.

I'm also continuing to have insights into my past. The last is: I now realize that, in the situations where people treated us two "wrongly" in the past when we were together, the issue was... me.

I was the one who was supposed to do what I'm doing now, ie take care of things for the couple. At restaurants, my family, her family, with friends, and in so many other situations.

You can't imagine how many times we two bickered for unrelated things - and, I now understand that our quarrels were basically all really due to me not seeing the dynamics and thus not being able to do what needed to be done.

But thankfully, this is starting to be a thing of the past as well.

EDIT: I realize the starting point of this insight was, among other things, your post on manipulative thread-expansion where you wrote that "being with a woman also means to take care of things for her and the couple".

Thank you, Lucio!

Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on May 31, 2023, 5:24 pm

Nice one, Bel!

Man, I smiled with a little bit of pride at these:

I resist and free my wrist

Catching the disempowering "jealousy sub-communication" and dismantling

I extend my other hand and grab her forearm to equalize

I did apply every one of your teachings here!

About this:

I resist and free my wrist

When she did that, I immediately thought about your article on "not being pulled into things". If she had had asked politely, of course; but as soon as she pulls my wrist... then the answer is "no".

Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on May 31, 2023, 5:24 pm

I chose not to - without any reason

Jane: But why?
You: I could have chosen to join, or not to join. I chose not to

You did great in that situation and your option was better.

However, it's good to have the above version when you want to maintain more power and don't want to provide a reason that can always feel a bit like justifying.

You always let your partner free to talk to whoever (as long as she talks to you first and most)

Consider this very different approach:

You never tell your partner not to talk about issues in your relationship.
It's akin to asking her to suffer in silence by not sharing.

A middle road would be not to share personal stuff about you, and that talking to you early and straight is what's most important.
Then, if she feels like sharing something with someone else, up to her.

Basically, as long as you avoid nasty triangulation where a bestie knows of thoughts, plans and pains before you do, and she always keeps you as #1, then she can have as many #2, 3, 4, 5... as she wants

Edit:
If you're interested in the rationale / possibility of this option, feel free to open a topic in the relationship section.
May be interesting to explore.

Thank you for the two approaches here above.

I can see immediately that you are absolutely right about Bella having to be free to talk to friends about us, or in any case about her situation (and I'll open the new thread on that, it is interesting).

On a related note, Bella told me tonight she now feels that "I can protect her". Basically, she verbalized what I was thinking after the "waiters at restaurants" thread.

I'm also continuing to have insights into my past. The last is: I now realize that, in the situations where people treated us two "wrongly" in the past when we were together, the issue was... me.

I was the one who was supposed to do what I'm doing now, ie take care of things for the couple. At restaurants, my family, her family, with friends, and in so many other situations.

You can't imagine how many times we two bickered for unrelated things - and, I now understand that our quarrels were basically all really due to me not seeing the dynamics and thus not being able to do what needed to be done.

But thankfully, this is starting to be a thing of the past as well.

EDIT: I realize the starting point of this insight was, among other things, your post on manipulative thread-expansion where you wrote that "being with a woman also means to take care of things for her and the couple".

Lucio Buffalmano and John Freeman have reacted to this post.

#636 · May 31, 2023, 10:03 pm

Yep, rock on, Bel.

You're now seeing all the results that sticking with this type of self-development can yield.

And what's even crazier is how (relatively) easy it is once you get it down compared to what many guys think is necessary and doesn't even lead them there -making millions, driving the Lambo, learning how to fight, dominating others, growing the six pack, or similar stuff-.

I remember an ex telling me how she felt with me.
And compared to his ex -taller, buffer, who said he'd "beat me up if he met me" (lol), and who'd periodically tell her "go to the kitchen, woman" (I guess some guys may think that shows "masculinity" :S)-.

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#637 · June 1, 2023, 12:59 pm

Do not say "Can I ask you...?"

I went to the post office.

I was dressed in leisure wear, but much better than in the past.

The employee that usually jokes and tries to steal change did not make any jokes today, nor did he talk about himself as usual.

Then this ensued:

Me: Can I ask you some forms for package shipping?

Him: You can ask, if you wish.

Then he went to get them.

It had already happened that other people had joked on my usual speech format of asking for things with

"Can I ask you..."

But only today I did finally get that it is a format that is best deleted from my speech.

Because: it basically amounts to asking for permission to say something!

Even if it is "polite wording", the subcommunication is still there.

So from now on, no more "Can I ask you"s.

Maybe, if I want to be very polite, "Can/could you... give me some forms... send me the documents... tell me where the toilet is... etc."

Lucio Buffalmano, John Freeman and Mats G have reacted to this post.

#638 · June 1, 2023, 4:46 pm

Doctor jokes about my name and touches me in front of Bella

I accompanied Bella to a medical visit.

The doctor was an old guy who started speaking about himself, his career and his story.

At a certain point, the topic of my name came up.

I have an unusual middle name and the doctor said something to the effect of

Doctor: Well, what’s the story with your name

Me: It comes from …

Doctor: Nice. In any case, I’ll just call you by your first name then, otherwise we’ll take too much time!

I noticed a plaque on the wall with his name and, some minutes later, I asked him:

Me: Well doctor, you also do have an unusual name. What’s the story of the name “Icilius”?

Doctor: It’s a name from Ancient Rome!

Me: Oh nice. So like Claudius, Caligula, Cicero, etc…

Bella later told me that, after this exchange, the fuss he had made about my name made him seem a bit of a dorky old guy.

After the visit, we say goodbye.

I notice he has raised his left hand as if to touch me on the arm or shoulder.

I also notice that he is lingering in the air, wondering for a moment whether to actually touch me.

I think he will; he probably understands he is going to look even more of a dork if he backs off now.

And sure enough, he places his hand on my arm and says goodbye.

But this time I’m ready.

I say

Me: Goodbye to you.

And place my hand on his arm as well.

He then doubles down and uses his other arm to pat me loudly on my other arm, twice, before turning back and going away.

But, I follow Lucio’s suggestion and touch him on the back while also going away.

(Take that.)

My only doubt is if I should have patted him loudly as he had (my second touching back made no sound).

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#639 · June 1, 2023, 7:00 pm

Nice going, Bel!

Agree with you that "can I ask you" may be too power down on certain occasions (it's fine in cultures or scenarios were both people play that same game of power protecting each other, but if you're not sure, may be safer to start higher power from the beginning).

Great going with the doctor as well.

Here's a different approach for you:

Quote from Bel on June 1, 2023, 4:46 pm

The doctor was an old guy who started speaking about himself, his career and his story.

Here's how an alpha-type / high power person may go about that:

You: hey doctor, that's super interesting and maybe one day we can grab some food and chat. We're a bit under time pressure today and have places to go, so if it's OK for you we'd like to go ahead with the consultation

Then ask all the info you need.

And more, just to make sure all the facts straight.

Very high power.

You can crack somes jokes as you go about -which is actually a great idea-.

Then be super warm once you're done with the facts, and may even do some more chit chat.

Once you leave, you can even gain more points with your partner with a comment:

Damn, that guy really enjoyed chatting nonsese didn't he.
Goo thing we stooped him on time or he'd have shared his whole life story.

Then have a laugh about it.
Sub-communication:

Thank God there was high power you to keep eyes on the ball, getting what you wanted, faster and more effectively.

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#640 · June 1, 2023, 7:24 pm

Kudos for the defense with the lady. I am also wondering if she was not flirting with you in a weird inadequate way.

So from now on, no more "Can I ask you"s.

I agree. Same with in French: "Do I dare to ask you..." these formulations are too submissive in most cases in my mind. Agree with Lucio: in some very deferent culture it can be used or if you ask a favour to a higher up for instance. Something that his role would not warrant him to accomplish but he may do it as a courtesy. For instance: bring something to somewhere he's already going: "Since you're going to the office, could I ask you to bring that at the same time please?". That is a lot of power protection.

Also, great physical defense with the old guy. I also now reciprocate on any touch. It is a stupid game but if we don't play it we're one down. So if someone double pat me, I double pat. Someone touches me I touch them back. So stupid but ignoring these doesn't work in my opinion. It cements the frame that they can touch you but you cannot touch them. I also think that when someone is kind and friendly, some people feel an urge to attempt to dominate them. So it looks like for them being kind and generous is like an invitation for domination. It is not of course. It's about being kind and not taking shit from anyone of course.

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