Bids for Vibing: mirror back, and thread-expand (& avoid thread-cutting)
The questions you ask or the comments you make can make a big difference.
They can either expand on the feelings, which in turn reflects well on you as the speaking partner, or they change the interaction for the negative -which also reflects poorly on you-.
Some people unwittingly ask questions that lead to negative feelings and sentiments.
Thta way, they make it harder on themselves to develop good relationships, and attract and keep high-quality people in their lives.
My dad often ends up unwittingly thread-cutting on good feelings, and dampening the mood.
Missing Bids for Vibing: Example
I recently saw a wine produced near my native place, which I thought was quite incredible, and sent a picture home.
My dad says "awesome" at first, great.
But then:
Me: (sends picture of wine bottle)
(...)
Him: But is of the best quality?
The problem with that question is that there is only one way it can expand the good feelings, and 99 chances it will choke the good vibes.
Especially given the circumstances.
I'm in freaking Kyrgyzstan, it's already a miracle there is a Montepulciano, do you really think there are high chances the place imports the best quality available?
Such a question forces me to deny, going from a festive mood of "look how cool", to "well, actually... It's not the best quality".
Similar dynamics with a comment:
Me: (sends a picture of my building entrance seen through the steering wheel of a Mercedes: I think it's SO cool that you can just rent and drive top cars with an app, without owning, and add the caption "went to see friends, came back in Mercedes")
Him: electric car no?
The comment ignores the "bid for vibing".
It's useless at best, and value-taking if it was actually asking why I didn't take an electric car (not sure what he meant from the text alone).
The opposite of what a good comment should do.
Compare to my mother's "EVVIVA" reply.
It doesn't really say anything, it's meaningless from a rational/logic point of view.
But it's emotionally intelligent and socially effective.
It vibes with the festive "how cool" vibe, feeds the good vibes back to me, and thread-expands on the positive.
And a third example:
Me: (sends a picture of me driving a scooter, which I also think it's totally awesome you can rent anywhere, without owning)
Him: We don't have those here, but we wouldn't need them
Again ignores the "bid for vibing".
And with the added grief of being self-referential, turning something that was about me, into something that's about him, and his circumstances.
With "Bids for Vibing", Vibe Back!
My father -and several others- fail to recognize the "bid for vibing".
Those pictures and comments are emotionally-positive texts that say "look how cool".
And they indirectly ask "vibe with me", "feel the same way" and "mirror it back to me".
It's not about factual information, or starting a discussion.
And least of all it's about finding faults in the picture/text.
Vibing back creates a shared experience of good feelings, which is win-win and improves relationships (if you don't care about having a good relationship with the individual sending bids, just ignore and they will soon get the message).
The correct answers in those cases are very simple:
- Awesome!
- How cool!
- Rock on!
And the "good" questions are questions that thread-expand on the good feelings:
- Wow, did you really find a Montepulciano there?
- Cool, does it drive well?
I would like to visit Kyrgyzstan some day :).
Lots of interesting places in Asia.
I think it's SO cool that you can just rent and drive top cars with an app, without owning, and add the caption "went to see friends, came back in Mercedes"
That must be how you got the Ferrari with the shot of Hollywoods in the background!
Getting a sports car to enjoy without having to worry about maintenance and all the hassles of ownership.
Sounds like a fun, road trip.
It's not about factual information, or starting a discussion.
It seems that your dad likes to start a discussion on the factual stuff.
Strangely, I think my dad is a bit like that too.
Once, I called my dad that I launched a new app before:
Me: Hey! I launched a new app.
Dad: Did you make a lot of money?
Me: Not really.
I called someone else after that :).
I think bids for vibing are important.
They open the door to deeper bids for connection.
I don't think someone would want to connect if the vibe was bad.
In the corporate environment, it makes sense to vibe with people who like vibing too.
I think some people miss out on that opportunity to build alliances.
If you give a lot of critical feedback without good vibes, people often view that as nitpicking.
Even though the critical feedback could be valuable.
In fact, I may even say that I have worked with quite a few people because we had good vibes in the beginning.
Yeah, that "did you make a lot of money" was unintendedly funny :).
It reminded me of a funny skit from Family Guy spoofing the "demanding type of family":
P.S.:
Let me know if you find it distasteful / inappropriate for whatever reason.
Quote from Matthew Whitewood on June 5, 2021, 5:50 pmI think bids for vibing are important.
They open the door to deeper bids for connection.
I don't think someone would want to connect if the vibe was bad.
Absolutely!
It can either open the door, or shut the door, for deeper sharing / bonding.
Works great in friendship, as well as in dating.
One of the best styles of dating is probably to mix:
- humor
- vibing and feeding back on "I feel-good about this" threads, and
- "deeper" connection.
Only humor might be too superficial (but of course it can work in bars or with some girls), only "deeper" connection is too "heavy", and only vibing fails to build more solid ground.
Put the 3 together, and you're golden.
Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on June 5, 2021, 6:21 pmYeah, that "did you make a lot of money" was unintendedly funny :).
It reminded me of a funny skit from Family Guy spoofing the "demanding type of family":
P.S.:
Let me know if you find it distasteful / inappropriate for whatever reason.
LOL it's true.
The stereotype actually has some truth to it.
Man, Family Guy can be funny.
Breaking Rapport in Seduction
Breaking rapport can be good to show dominance.
As you mentioned, some people like Todd seem to push this too far.
He seems to want to break the "vibe" unnecessarily sometimes.
The most extreme is the guy in Crazy Stupid Love who awkwardly breaks rapport at all the woman's statements.
This destroys the vibe.
But you don't have to break the "vibe" to show dominance and leadership.
Crafting and leading the vibe shows that too.
I hope it's alright to jump into this topic as a complete stranger to you, especially since its possibly a bit personal.
And to make matters worse and a bit ironic, I will go against the bid of vibing in this very thread:
I disagree with the general sentiment here. That's not to say I like the reaction of your father.
Some of these bids for vibing look like "Tell me I'm good! Tell me I made it! Validate me!" like the mercedes picture.
And I get it, you want to share your highs. Yet this site talks about the dark side of human psychology a lot, let's consider that one here as well:
If you tell others cool stories and encounters from your exceptional life, especially if you only talk about the awesome experiences while keeping the bad stuff that comes with it for yourself, you simply make them envious, even if you don't outright brag about it. Is envy or jealousy something great? No, it absolutely sucks, it's painful and I hate my own envy, yet I can't deny its existence and can't help feeling this way, because I obviously don't cause it in the first place.
I think it's for the most part a myth that humans can truly feel happy for someone else's success if they themselves aren't at least in the same spot of success or luck (or alternatively: truly don't care).
That's a possible heavy downside of success or luck: nobody will take your problems seriously, and nobody will cheer for your wins, because others simply can't relate (or even want to see you fail and suffer).
And it isn't even all that irrational that they can't relate, whatever problems you have, having money as well won't hurt you at all, quite the contrary, so the problems of rich people are for the most party truly a lot less severe.
For example can a homeless man truly and honestly vibe with the joy of a rich guy driving a Lamborghini while he himslef only owns the stinking old clothes covering his sick body? I think it's absolutely impossible if the homeless man has any craving for money at all, no matter what. That's simply how the human mind works.
We are egocentric and hate the success or luckier circumstances of others because it makes us feel worthless, de-validated and highlights the bad spot we're stuck in. That's simply the reality about the human psyche. The other side is that we crave to show to others how much better we are. These two mechanisms alone cause an immense amount of suffering for no reason whatsoever. The human condition is terrible and pathetic.
From a social exchange perspective, you want validation and cheerful comments from them.
Though at the same time your luck or success, may very well make them feel inferior, envious, angry or regretful. You make them feel bad from their perspective. I'm not saying their behavior is acceptable or good, but the reaction isn't really all that unexpected I think.
If your outstanding successes highlight their relative failure, or at least reminds them of how much they would like to have achieved something similar, then from their perspective, you are the one de-validating them while expecting validation from them at the same time.
And they may do "vibe" with you over text, or smile in your face, but in secrecy they may hate you for it.
I might be completely wrong here, but I think that could be a explanation for behavior like this, they simply want to drag you down, because you made them feel bad. And it's a pretty "normal" and common thing as far as I'm aware, so this is not specifically about your examples but a general statement.
Though from a tactical perspective of "what's the most effective way to bond with others", your post is for sure correct, yet most people wont be able to follow it through without being dishonest and suppressing their own envy.
Maybe I'm completely wrong and projecting though, but I don't think so.
Great points, The_Critic.
There are a couple of popular threads that perfectly discuss the dynamics you're pointing out:
These two:
- Social media strategy: basically, explains why you don't brag / seek validation on social media
- Frame your successes as inspiration: basically, explains why you don't want to publicly show off your success
However, albeit there might some of those dynamics in these cases, I don't think they're the focus point.
There are a few important differences, including:
PUBLIC VS PRIVATE (1:1)
There is a major difference between public display, public sharing, or even public validation-seeking and a private one.
Especially if that private one is done with:
CLOSE RELATIONSHIPS & FAMILY VS SOCIAL MEDIA
There is a big difference between close relationships, and extended social-media levels of various acquaintances.
Family-level is (far) less likely to fall for envious and frenemies dynamics.
Family-level is where it should be totally safe to share "look how awesome I am" moments because your family does want you to be awesome, accomplished, and successful.
It might still not be the best place to be for you though, since seeking validation for success doesn't come from a place of antifragile ego.
Different case though for sharing happy moments (which of course sometimes overlap with "look how awesome I am" moments, read on)
VALIDATION SEEKING VS HAPPY MOMENTS SHARING
Albeit I might share -or fall?- for "look how awesome I am" moments, this wasn't the case.
Or, at least, it was difficult to districate the "look how awesome I am" component from the "I'm happy and want to share it" one.
The wine certainly wasn't about "look how awesome I am".
Driving a 50cc scooter would rarely classify as "look how awesome I am" in most people's books.
Not even driving a Mercedes was.
That was a 5 Euro ride (!).
The "happiness" of the sharing wasn't so much "look at how accomplished", but "look how cool this city, where anyone can pick up Mercedes & BMWs in the street".
More about "freedom", the power of "distributed owning", using without owning -and without the costs and strings of owning-.
That distributed owning is also a cool mindset / lifestyle, going to make a post on it soon.
But I totally understand how that picture can make someone feel like "look how cool I am".
And that's why your analysis is really good.
THE "WIIFM" STRATEGY
There are two aspects here:
- The "need" of the individual who seeks validation / common vibing / expansion of good feelings
- The "opportunity" of the individual who validates back
As you currently point out, with the second one we're also talking about social strategies here.
Someone who brags to you specifically is also saying "you're meaningful to me".
When you fail to realize that, you increase the distance -and the influence, and leverage you have on people-.
There is something in it for you to validate, since you become a source of validation. They'll like you more, feel more attracted to you, and come back for more.
This is where emotional intelligence overlaps with power dynamics and strategies -and what's truly missing in the "emotional intelligence" literature and various books/courses-.
P.S.:
Welcome :).
Quote from Lucio Buffalmano on June 6, 2021, 5:46 amGreat points, The_Critic.
There are a couple of popular threads that perfectly discuss the dynamics you're pointing out:
These two:
- Social media strategy: basically, explains why you don't brag / seek validation on social media
-
Frame your successes as inspiration: basically, explains why you don't want to publicly show off your success
Oh great threads, very interesting and advanced ways to minimize those envy dynamics.
(It was the same link, but the title was all I needed to find the other one as well)
The main takeaway for me is "make your win their win as well in some way", and that really sounds like a good strategy. Maybe envy is a way in the human psyche to increase the costs for hoarding and not sharing with others, and the best way to avoid such "enemies" is to simply share where appropriate.
PUBLIC VS PRIVATE (1:1)
There is a major difference between public display, public sharing, or even public validation-seeking and a private one.
Especially if that private one is done with:
CLOSE RELATIONSHIPS & FAMILY VS SOCIAL MEDIA
That's certainly an important distinction to make.
Yet we might disagree in how big the difference between those in reality is. Because I see envy as a core emotion of the human mind, and don't see much of a reason why it wouldn't exist in close relationships as well, maybe even more so because humans tend to compare themselves so much with the people they are closest to, in contrast to some randos on the internet for example.
Now if you imagine that you win 150 million in the lottery, I still think it's very hard for someone else to truly feel happy for you even if they are close to you – if that causes craving in them as well, maybe even more so because maybe you two were always on the same level and now you're completely gone.
Or parents who know you from when you've been a screaming bundle of helplessness, and now you're vanished into the sky, that could be hard to stomach. Doesn't mean of course that they should sabotage you or drag you down just because they feel insecure, but it might make sense to think about this general possibility (which is not a nice one for sure).
I certainly would feel envy no matter how close I'm to the lucky winner (and I hate it).
It likely wouldn't apply if they trust you to share your excess wealth with them. But if you don't at all, there could easily be a lot of envy. But I acknowledge that this example is a rather extreme case because you jump out of their frame of reference and this may simply not apply in less extreme circumstances.
Family-level is where it should be totally safe to share "look how awesome I am" moments because your family does want you to be awesome, accomplished, and successful.
Yes I agree that this is what it should be, though is that really the case in most of these relationships, especially family, that you didn't even choose?
I witnessed these dynamics in close relationships as well (often more subtle but still), read many examples how others have simliar experiences, and am aware that there is envy in myself too – as much as I'm disgusted by that fact. (It's not cool to be aware of the pathetic crab mentality and witnessing how that shit creeps up your own mind as well. Has been a while though.)
But it's certainly great if you have a close group of friends and family where this isn't as prevalent or doesn't even exist at all. Not sure how common that is, and I assume it's rather rare.
The "happiness" of the sharing wasn't so much "look at how accomplished", but "look how cool this city, where anyone can pick up Mercedes & BMWs in the street".
More about "freedom", the power of "distributed owning", using without owning -and without the costs and strings of owning-.
That distributed owning is also a cool mindset / lifestyle, going to make a post on it soon.
I wasn't really aware of that and misinterpreted your vibe bids then, and it really sounds like a great mindset to have.
And that Mercedes picture certainly doesn't look like a $5 ride, I think I spend my money wrong 😀
Or, at least, it was difficult to districate the "look how awesome I am" component from the "I'm happy and want to share it" one.
The wine certainly wasn't about "look how awesome I am".
Yes agree, and I should have taken that into consideration as well. I strictly looked at it from the perspective of someone being "stuck at home" so to speak and getting a picture from, lets say 1000s of miles away, and the possible dynamic of them now being reminded of never having traveled as much. Though it could be that I simply had an idea of what was going on there and then somewhat forced everything to fit this narrative, that seems to happen sometimes.
Driving a 50cc scooter would rarely classify as "look how awesome I am" in most people's books.
Yes I agree, though seeing this as one mosaic of the whole picture you display, I still can see how it could be perceived that way (while I absolutely don't think perceiving it that way were justified or good in any way).
This is simply the most logical explanation for vibe-breaking comments I could think of, and I can remember somewhat similiar comments and dynamics I went through in regards to entrepreneurship, when all kinds of people, close and not close, tried to talk it down as much as possible, likely because it isn't the standard way of living most people are bound by (for whatever reason), and going that way in itself de-validates their life choices from their perspective. (This isn't to say that criticism or concern were invalid in that regard, but I could simply feel how the intent seemingly was simply to bring me "back in line", and I've heard similar experiences from others).
What other explanation is there for comments that again and again try to break the vibe that implies you achieved something or experienced something significant (even if that's not your intent when sharing these)? Social cluelessness maybe, but would it happen again and again? Not sure.
An important point I forgot to mention is that there are still several ways to deal with it: not giving in the urge to rain on their parade, maybe even being honest about it making you feel bad and underachieved without blaming them, and the worst possibilities: trying to drag them down or even sabotaging them.
To not end on all that gloom again, I think the best way to prevent or mitigate this as much as you can is to try to make your wins theirs as well in some way as part of the broader WIIFT mindset one should take on while navigating life (a great example is being in the center of a stage and dancing and sharing your great mood with everyone around while at the same time getting lots of status and female attention which further increases your mood), and the two linked threads are really valuable for this.
5 Euros for renting a Mercedes?!
That's cheaper than most Uber rides.
HAPPY MOMENTS SHARING (Continued)
Even though the relationship between a father and son is different from a romantic relationship, the foundations and dynamics of the father-son relationship have many similarities.
After all, you have shared a significant portion of your life with your father.
Sharing happy moments builds shared meaning.
Whether you are together or not together physically.
It says that the father wants the son to have a happy life and is able to feel happy about his happy experiences.
And vice versa as well.
Understanding what sparks a happy experience for each other builds love maps.
This is what's missing if you go into facts & discussions rather than digging deeper into why someone shares an experience with you.
Showing excitement when someone shares a happy experience is a display of fondness & admiration, platonic in the case of a father-son relationship.
I think the father-son relationship is a special one.
In a healthy relationship, the father often wants the son to do even better than him because things should get better down the generation.
In the evolutionary sense, it makes sense as well.
The genes have a higher chance of surviving and being passed down.
I would be skeptical of sharing holiday pictures with colleagues for example.
That's a more competitive dynamic and relationship.
Quote from The_Critic on June 6, 2021, 6:39 pmYes I agree that this is what it should be, though is that really the case in most of these relationships, especially family, that you didn't even choose?
I witnessed these dynamics in close relationships as well (often more subtle but still), read many examples how others have simliar experiences, and am aware that there is envy in myself too – as much as I'm disgusted by that fact. (It's not cool to be aware of the pathetic crab mentality and witnessing how that shit creeps up your own mind as well. Has been a while though.)
Well, maybe I'm being too optimistic, but I'd consider that parents cheering for their children's success is the norm rather than the exception.
It's not just a belief held on what "ought" to be, but ties back to evolutionary psychology and what's good for the selfish gene as well. Kins' success is partially also your success.
Exceptions do apply, of course.
I'm ready to change my mind on this though if I saw either some study showing most parents being envious, or if my personal observation started showing me an endless stream of jealous and competitive parents.
But you're probably right when it comes to non-family relationships, and then it's the other way around: those who are truly happy for your success are the exception.
Quote from The_Critic on June 6, 2021, 6:39 pmWhat other explanation is there for comments that again and again try to break the vibe that implies you achieved something or experienced something significant (even if that's not your intent when sharing these)? Social cluelessness maybe, but would it happen again and again? Not sure.
An important point I forgot to mention is that there are still several ways to deal with it: not giving in the urge to rain on their parade, maybe even being honest about it making you feel bad and underachieved without blaming them, and the worst possibilities: trying to drag them down or even sabotaging them.
In my opinion, in this specific case, and in a good chunk of intra-family relationships, I'd guess that it's mostly social cluelessness and lack of emotional intelligence, yes.
In other cases outside of the family, you're probably right and envy, jealousy, schadenfreude, and various "darker motives" are the main ingredient -which is why those strategic approaches of framing your most "show-off" updates as lessons learned, or as "look how cool, and I'm recommending this to you to do as well" can work well-.
Social cluelessness is still there though, since at the strategic level it would make sense for the selfish, smarter Machiavellian player to fake happiness.
Quote from Matthew Whitewood on June 6, 2021, 7:05 pm5 Euros for renting a Mercedes?!
That's cheaper than most Uber rides.
OFF-TOPIC
Yes it is cheaper.
By driving yourself, you cut out the driver, so you remove one important cost factor.
OFF-TOPIC
And "yes" to all the rest of your message.
I posted mine before, and we both ended up to the roots of evolutionary psychology and overlapping self-interest.